Build #2, Pistol

[KNeilson]

I had begun this thread with some DOM, but due to the large amount of negative feedback I am continuing with a barrel that was supplied by an ALR member. Pls disregard the first half dozen posts...  Kerry
I`m the type of guy that needs a half dozen projects on the go to keep busy it seems. Since Ive built my first rifle, and now after shooting it I have a desire for a pistol. Ive been stepping over a bit of material at a buddys shop recently and the other day I happened to have a .54 ball with me. After trying it for size I was delighted to see that its fits, so the first part of my next build was born. This is 1 " OD heavy wall mechanical DOM tubing, has a good,round interior finish, and just happens to be the size I was looking for. Alongside is a bit of threaded 1" HR M/S that will become the breech plug. I cant see why I shouldnt be using this material for such a purpose. Do any of the more experienced gunbuilders have doubts about this?.......   Kerry

[JTR]

So the type of steel is?
With a tensile strength of ?? and a bursting pressure of ??
So are you going to file some flats on it, or taper it, or just use it as is so the barrel looks like a piece of pipe?

Given that pistol barrels made by known makers are pretty cheap, and come with flats or tapered, or whatever you want, what’s the point in using a piece of pipe?

But if you decide to use this piece of pipe, once you get it all stocked up, I suggest for the first shot that you hold it in the hand that you favor the least.

I realize you’re new here, but don’t lose track of the fact that you’re making a gun. Maybe a black powder gun, but a gun none the less.

Just my 2 bits,
John

[Pete G.]

Pistol barrels are cheap because they don't cost much to make. Most pistol loads are about half of a rifle of the same caliber, so about half the pressure. Old barrels were made of iron and sometimes brass, both of which are way below steel in tensile strength. I would go for it myself, but turn some taper on that pipe.

[Elnathan]

Thats going to be a long breechplug...

People have used tubing for barrels before, but there is certainly an element of risk involved. You might do a search in the archives for previous discussions.

[KNeilson]

Gentlemen, your comments are exactly what I was looking for. So.....

So the type of steel is?
With a tensile strength of ?? and a bursting pressure of ??

I believe its 1020, which would give it roughly a 45,000 psi tensile strength. Bursting press would be the interior surface time the tensile strength..70,700 lbs to my calculations. Being seamless there is no weld to split.

I realize you’re new here, but don’t lose track of the fact that you’re making a gun. Maybe a black powder gun, but a gun none the less

Exactly why I am asking the questions I did....

Thats going to be a long breechplug...

This is only the roughed out bits, The thread is 3/4-16, I have an adjustable die so I can make a "tight" thread. The breech plug thread will be 3/4 deep when finished.
I plan to file the barrel flats in, the turn a taper with some decorative rings... My immediate concerns are the material and construction methods.... are all the modern barrels drilled?  Forging would have a prohibitive cost I would think......  Kerry

[KNeilson]

People have used tubing for barrels before, but there is certainly an element of risk involved. You might do a search in the archives for previous discussions.

Elnathan, good advise, There seems to be a LARGE amount of negative feedback for DOM material, due to this I am quitting this project. Better to ask now before disaster......

Given that pistol barrels made by known makers are pretty cheap, and come with flats or tapered, or whatever you want, what’s the point in using a piece of pipe?

JTR, I just like the Zen of constructing my own items, nothing more or less.... I buy hardly anything I cant make, sometimes this is an affliction, other times a benefit.....
For what its worth it took me about an hour to cut, thread and turn the internal thread..considering what I learned, a cheap lesson....... Kerry

[Bioprof]

I'm not making any recommendations, but just making an observaton.   Tennessee Valley Manufacturing sold barrels made from DOM tubing for a long time.  I've never heard that there was any problem with them.   I do see that they no longer have them listed on their web site though.   Does anyone know why they quit selling them?

[JTR]

Being seamless there is no weld to split.

From one of several sources on the production of DOM tubing;

Salem Steel specializes in supplying high-quality DOM (drawn over mandrel) precision welded cold-drawn carbon steel tubing. Our DOM tubing is used in many demanding applications and is celebrated for its reliability, durability and exceptional quality.

I guess I'm just to cautious to use something like this.
John

[KNeilson]

Due to the generosity of an ALR member I now have a barrel. I was told its a fast twist barrel, it measures roughly 10 in long and the rifling does a quarter turn in that (1-40). I started by making a masonite pattern to try what it "felt" like in my hand, then traced and cut out a Walnut blank. Then layed out and inlet the barrel, cut a ramrod groove in the forestock, and extended the hole into the stock to the breech. Next I layed out the locks location and inlet till it just touched the barrel. My question at this point is...Its a round barrel,  should I file a flat on the barrel for the lock bolster to mate with, or cope the lock to fit the barrel? I`m leaning to a small flat on the barrel, just not sure what is  "proper". Thx.........  Kerry

[Dave B]

Kerry,
Hey its starting to come together. You are correct with regard to modifying the barrel to allow for a match to the lock.
A small flat on the barrel is exactly what you need. Originals were done this way on the full round barrels. It only needs to be flat to where you get the bolster up to the barrel and the pan seals against the barrel with out any gaps. You don't want any powder dropping down into the lock mortise unless you want your pistol to be a take down model. If you are concerned about the out flair of the lock panels you can always grind a little off the front of the bolster providing the kick out at the tail of the lock.

[Dphariss]

I`m the type of guy that needs a half dozen projects on the go to keep busy it seems. Since Ive built my first rifle, and now after shooting it I have a desire for a pistol. Ive been stepping over a bit of material at a buddys shop recently and the other day I happened to have a .54 ball with me. After trying it for size I was delighted to see that its fits, so the first part of my next build was born. This is 1 " OD heavy wall mechanical DOM tubing, has a good,round interior finish, and just happens to be the size I was looking for. Alongside is a bit of threaded 1" HR M/S that will become the breech plug. I cant see why I shouldnt be using this material for such a purpose. Do any of the more experienced gunbuilders have doubts about this?.......  Kerry

Tubing is not suitable for gun barrels. Alloy is irrelevant its the manufacturing process.
Cold rolled anything is not suitable for gun barrels. Cold rolled material is wonderful stuff for many applications. Gun barrels is just not one of them.
Even hot rolled tubing, welded or otherwise, is still not suitable.
Good quality pistol barrels made from suitable material are cheap as previously stated.

Dan

[KNeilson]

Dave B, Dan, thx for your replys. Dave, thx for your thoughts, a flat it will be then. I had also considered adding a small "wedge"of material to the barrel as long as the lock bolster. But that may affect the space needed for the mainspring.... Dan, I gave up the thought of using the tubing. Too much negative feedback for me. I would be interested in learning the specifics of the reasoning behind not using this material if there is printed or posted material available. I have searched on the forum archives and there are posts on the subject but none with specific metallurgy requirements. Can you point me in a direction to find this? Thx ............   Kerry
A little info on the subject.......    http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm

A little more yet......  http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmithing/RSgunsmith1/

[Daryl]

Kerry - looks OK so far. I think a good accurate measure on the rifling twist rate would find it at about 28" to 30".  It really doesn't matter what it is exactly as it will shoot just fine.

[northwoodsdave]

I have a smoothie rifle made with a round (swamped) barrel.  A small flat was filed at the breech end where the vent would be located, then a wedge soldered in for a larger flat surface.  it's a pretty smooth setup, and certainly makes for a nice flat on one side of the barrel.

I can post pics if you are interested.

Dave

[KNeilson]

Daryl, Dave, thx for your replys...Dave, a pic would be OK if not too much bother, I got a pretty good mental image tho. Daryl, my 1-40 statement  is an "eyeball" guess.... But I would be interested in a more accurate method of measuring twist rate. Good subject for another post for me....  thx all.........  Kerry

[Dave B]

These are  shots of a sea service pistol project I have in the wings. Note the flat where the pan will butt up against the barrel. The flat is not big enough for the whole bolster but just enough to allow for the pan to seal on the barrel.

[Daryl]

With only 10" to work with, measuring the twist will be difficult.  It really isn't necessary, anyway - it is too fast a twist for a rifle barrel and round balls. Rifle barrels, when cut to 10", show very little angle to the rifling over the length of the barrel when viewed from either end.

[KNeilson]

Dave, Daryl, thx...... Great pics Dave, thk you, I will try something similar...

But I would be interested in a more accurate method of measuring twist rate. Good subject for another post for me

I`ll pull my foot out of my mouth now cause I was wondering were I went wrong and discovered actually putting a tape to it would help  .  I`ll shut up now......  Kerry 

With only 10" to work with, measuring the twist will be difficult.  It really isn't necessary, anyway - it is too fast a twist for a rifle barrel and round balls. Rifle barrels, when cut to 10", show very little angle to the rifling over the length of the barrel when viewed from either end.

I was considering at one point to buy a rifle barrel to cut up, glad I didnt....... thx Daryl....  K

[Daryl]

Kerry- rifle barrels work just fine for pistols  - they do need more powder for identical accuracy, though.  My .54's best load, that needed for 2" groups at 50 yards off the bags, is 55gr. 3F.  It about matches my 4", .44's power, except the larger ball has the advantage in diameter at impact - on paper, of course.

[northwoodsdave]

Here is the flat set up on my smoothie.



The piece is larger than the small area filed, and makes for a larger flat area. 



This makes the lock fit tight against the barrel, and no powder gets behind and into the lock workings.

As long as I have it off, I'm going to remove the excess solder and rebrown it. so it looks a bit better.

Dave

[KNeilson]

Dave, thx for the pic. Its makes thing very clear. From the color of the solder it appears to be a lead alloy. Is it (solder) quite soft. Just wondering cause I have another post going on brazing alloys for things like this...  thx..     Kerry

[northwoodsdave]

The solder is actually quite tough (to the point it's VERY hard to remove any, even with a harderned tool).  But I'd agree brazing would be a better way to do this.

Dave

[Daryl]

Kerry- I soft soldered the drip rail on my .69 rifle many years ago, using low temp silver bearing solder - 5% I think it was. It is all that's needed.  I would not use hard silver (silver brazing) due to the extreme heat necessary. Besides, the strength it isn't needed at this location.

[KNeilson]

I found a little time to work on my pistol and made a breech plug. Its thread is 5/8x18tpi by 3/4 long, the visible gap dissapears when fully tightened. The lock seems to fit best between the bands and I got the end of the breech plug just shy of the where the ctr of the pan will be. I also made a small wedge of material to support the lock, will make a barrel tenon next and then solder the works together...  Kerry

[KNeilson]

Found a little more time and got a few more parts built. Other than a trigger guard I am pretty well there. I took it out and shot it just to make sure I didnt have to make any drastic changes. Quite slow on the ignition, but the vent is just a .062 straight hole. I found out I had to do a fair bit of work on the lock such as polishing and fitting of parts. The frizzen was way too soft at the start, I re-hardened it and tempered in a toaster oven. I think now its maybe a bit hard as it sparks but there is no evidence of grooving or marring where as before it really was stripping metal off as it worked. After cleaning I took this quick pic... Ive added a front sight now, and will be shaping the stock soon... this website is a great resource and has been an invaluable asset to me in the beginnings of my learning curve as a gunbuilder. Thx to all for contributing.....    Kerry