Author Topic: Vent wiper  (Read 10187 times)

billd

  • Guest
Vent wiper
« on: March 24, 2010, 06:37:29 AM »
I don't want to steal the touchhole liner thread so I'll ask here. Re: Daryl's post:  What's a vent wiper and do some locks come with them or is it a modification?
Bill

Michael

  • Guest
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2010, 03:10:36 PM »
Bill,

What I have seen is a small 'washer' like ring made as part of the pancover that is directly up against the touch hole. It has a hole through it that lines up with the touch hole when the frizzen is closed. As the frizzen is opened or closed it 'scrapes' or wipes the face of the touch hole clean of any fowling. That make any sense?? I didn't have any pictures to post, I'm sure some one will. A picture is worth a thousand words!! The lock that I saw this on was on a Manton duelling pistol and double shotgun, high end English work.

Michael

Offline Don Getz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6853
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2010, 03:21:29 PM »
Last time I saw one of those it was in my right hand................Don

Michael

  • Guest
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2010, 03:46:42 PM »
Don,

Thats the American version ;D ;D ;D

Michael

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2010, 03:50:59 PM »
I don't want to steal the touchhole liner thread so I'll ask here. Re: Daryl's post:  What's a vent wiper and do some locks come with them or is it a modification?
Bill



Some were drilled to allow the lock pan to be primed when the barrel was loaded.
The fit to the side of the breech is pretty close as well.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 05:16:35 PM »
 agreeing with DP here .
 most originals that i have seen were drilled  as part of a self priming  system .
 the dont really clean the flashole face , but  instead remove the powder away from the face of the vent .
remeber that this tabe will not be in place when the actual  ignition causes fouling  to build .

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 05:25:35 PM »
You can have a tab on the bottom of the frizzen that will cover the flash hole when friz is closed. This tab can shape the priming into a clear channel right to the touch hole.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2010, 01:54:09 AM »







Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2010, 02:37:22 AM »
With all of this in mind, does anyone know why so many modern locks (Silers for sure, but I think some others too) have just the oposite configuration? I am speaking of the groove that is cast into the center of the bottom surface of the pan cover.

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2010, 03:17:24 AM »
 dang , seems o posted  all but the one i wanted .


billd

  • Guest
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2010, 03:37:47 AM »
Thanks guys,   I never knew what a vent wiper was, never even heard of one till last night, except for the kind Mr. Getz has.

BIll

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2010, 03:59:01 AM »
just a thought on the wiper: If your touchole is a recessed vent, or coned from the outside, the wiper will put sludge INTO the cone.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

The other DWS

  • Guest
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2010, 04:13:19 AM »
that vee-shaped open ended pan is interesting.  I assume the flange on the end of the frizzen seals it when the frizzen down.   I'd love to see some overhead Larry-type pics of that one going off.  not sure I'd want to be standing close beside it though :o

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2010, 05:15:27 AM »
 the photo above it is of the same peice . if you look real close you can see that the pan has a   cup  thats below the V. so the  bottom of the frizzen acts as any other .
 however what this is, is one of  Manton’s  water proof designs .  notice how the  the lid has wings that slop down .  its real shape is more an upside down W . as such as water rolls down the frizzen face  its  rolls down around the frizzen  and around the pan .  thus taking more water before the water can wick up and then back down into the pan

 off topic here becouse this  lock does not carry  the self priming lip . but
IMO a truly interesting piece is this  Moore  . Notice that the pan is a closed ended trough ,. But  it also carries a  pan vent .  Not just any vent either . But a pan vent with a liner .
 the pan is also screwed to the breech and is not part of the lock .
 there are other diffrences  as well that make this Moore rather interesting . but im already off topic so ill stop







« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 05:27:42 AM by Captchee »

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2010, 05:32:40 PM »
Looks like that pan screws into the barrell... I wonder if the nipple is coned???  :o
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2010, 11:33:39 PM »
With all of this in mind, does anyone know why so many modern locks (Silers for sure, but I think some others too) have just the oposite configuration? I am speaking of the groove that is cast into the center of the bottom surface of the pan cover.

How about "because that is the way locks like that were made?" These complex systems on fine European examples have almost nothing to do with what the vast majority of locks imported to or made in American were like. My long departed friend Lynton McKenzie concluded that most of those "features" were just gimmicks designed to sell locks.
Gary
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2010, 11:51:49 PM »
just a thought on the wiper: If your touchole is a recessed vent, or coned from the outside, the wiper will put sludge INTO the cone.

I am ready to be corrected on this but, for now, I believe that recessed or externally coned touch holes/vents are mostly a modern adaptation because, until liners became readily available, they were easier to do than period internal coning.
Gary
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

Offline Benedict

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2010, 12:32:22 AM »
I am ready to be corrected on this but, for now, I believe that recessed or externally coned touch holes/vents are mostly a modern adaptation because, until liners became readily available, they were easier to do than period internal coning.
Gary

Gary,  Are you saying that internal coning of touchholes was common in period American Longrifles?

Bruce

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2010, 12:53:22 AM »


How about "because that is the way locks like that were made?" These complex systems on fine European examples have almost nothing to do with what the vast majority of locks imported to or made in American were like. My long departed friend Lynton McKenzie concluded that most of those "features" were just gimmicks designed to sell locks.
Gary

That there were a lot of gimmicks goes without saying. I have seen newpaper cartoons for the time that lampooned the patenting of various improvements by showing a "patent" gun that killed in all directions at once. Fellow hunters, dogs, everything.
But some the the stuff apparently works. The Nock breech for example, while not as fast as some is very reliable and more importantly more CONSISTENT in Larry Pletcher's tests. Consistent lock time makes wing shooting easier. What most of the improvements were trying to do. They had little interest in rifles, the real money was in shotguns.
The rollered frizzen/frizzen spring, the smaller lock parts both internal and external, the stiffer springs and the longer distance from pan to frizzen pivot all make a difference. The recessed breech is supposed to be faster since the pan is closer to the center of the barrel, but this would require Pletcher to do some timing. The V pan, the swoopy "wave" pan etc etc were just window dressing I am sure. But the vent wiper may well have helped waterproof the vent. But then we have the art value. When selling to high end customers looking fast can be as important as being fast.
My 16 bore rifle with the lock made from Manton recessed breech castings is very reliable. I almost never have to knap a flint, when it quits working  the flint is generally used up and knapping only gives another shot or two. It gives good flint life even though it has very stiff springs. It also jars the rifle less.
Of course they were not used on American guns to any great extent, but Simeon North used them so some were used.
I like them for a couple of reasons, they work really well, they are mechanical works of art and they look good. If the firearm is acceptable with one they are a great choice.
It is obvious that a 1800-1820 lock is incorrect for a Colonial rifle, but where they fit I really like them.

We must remember the high end English guns were made for a far different clientele than most American gunsmiths worked for. Money was no object to the people buying the high end guns.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline frogwalking

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1044
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2010, 02:33:17 AM »
What absolutely beautiful guns.  Thanks for sharing them.
Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3028
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2010, 03:37:40 AM »
I have admired that Moore breech and locks for quite some time.  It would appear that if ever a lock was waterproof that one is.  With the stem of the pan extending out from the side of the barrel and lower than the pan edges, the best protection possible from water sliding down from the barrel has been achieved.  And the recessed breech makes the width of the SxS barrel arrangement much slimmer.  If the the pan extensions are coned on the inside they should be pretty quick firing as well.   I keep looking for a shootable flintlock shotgun with similar locks but have had little success as I can't afford the prices!   Man they want a lot of money for them.  Is anyone making recessed breech hardware that could be use to make a single or double gun?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2010, 07:29:03 AM »
You might find something in the Rifle Shoppe catalogue.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline flintriflesmith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1509
    • Flintriflesmith
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2010, 09:08:01 PM »
Gary,  Are you saying that internal coning of touchholes was common in period American Longrifles?
Bruce
Bruce,
No. I don't think there is anywhere near enough evidence to make a conclusion on that one way or the other. I think you could count on one hand the number of American longrifles that survive in original flint that are in good enough condition to still show evidence of an internally coned touch hole if they had one to begin with -- and the owners of those few are not going to subject them to the that sort of examination.

What I was trying to say was that external coning was/is mostly a modern substitute intended to perform the same function as internal coning. We do know internal coning was used on some Jaegers and other period European arms.


Gary
"If you accept your thoughts as facts, then you will no longer be looking for new information, because you assume that you have all the answers."
http://flintriflesmith.com

Offline Benedict

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2010, 10:28:52 PM »
thanks for clarifying that Gary.  It would seem that for American Longrifles that are being built for shooters today, the best thing would be to have an internal cone that was made out of the same material as the barrel.  that way it would not stick out as being coned but would still have all the benefits of internal coning.

Bruce

Offline Cody Tetachuk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 237
Re: Vent wiper
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2010, 12:19:06 AM »
Is anyone making recessed breech hardware that could be use to make a single or double gun?

Locks (or more correctly, lock parts) suitable for recessed breeches can be had from TRS as Taylor suggested as well as Blackley and Dyson.