Halfstock Questions

[nord]

This rifle has been submitted for possible exhibit in the museum. The owner has some questions about the piece and asked that I place a portion of his text and the photos here.

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Owner:

Probably a New York piece, probably late 1850's to
1870's. Half stock back action caplock, with adjustable rear sight
(front missing). Barrel marked "N. Potter" with the front end turned for
a starter. German silver mountings on a walnut stock. Toe plate and
butt plate heel are riveted. My step-father pulled both a shotgun and
this rifle out of someone's trash in Marathon, NY when he was a teenager
in 1938 or 39 (he couldn't remember which year, but they moved out of
Marathon after that). The rib is hollow. There is a piece of tin or
something over the wood under the drum. The tumbler won't hold full
cock, and there is no half cock notch. Barrel is straight 1 1/8", about
38 cal.

New Photos 03/25/10







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Excerpts of owner questions:

Per your note re: the Schuler under "Searching" in the Antique section,
would you also be willing to load some of the pictures of my
step-fathers rifle? Either to answer the request for pix under the
"Loaded" thread in Over the Back Fence, or in the Library if the rifle
isn't too late to be of interest. I took a number of pictures of it. I
removed the barrel to look for any marks, and found the whole barrel
under the wood to be surrounded by what looks to be cotton fabric. Was
this common? I'd never heard of it before.
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My reply:

I do believe this to be a NY rifle as the name keeps haunting me. What's left of my failing memory keeps calling me back to the Utica area. Somehow I keep connecting the Ferriss/Ferris and Potter names together.

On this I may be altogether wrong as I grew up only a couple miles from the modern Ferris family. Their farm is located on Military Rd. about two miles west of Russia, NY. The Potter family (when I was a young man) lived just down the road from them. Whether these Potters were tied to gunmaking I can't say for sure, but I have my suspicions. The "turned" muzzle would be expected if there is a Ferris connection.


Owner replied:

Attached are the additional pictures requested. I absolutely agree this
is a pretty plain rifle, and should only go into the museum if it is
useful for education. In any event, I certainly appreciate any
information, and I'm sure my step-father will.
 
The stock does have a perch-belly shape to it, which doesn't seem to be
very obvious in the photos. #404 is the sideplate, 405 tang and comb,
401 under the forearm, 402 trigger guard, 403 toeplate. There is no
cheekpiece or inlay on the cheekside. I tried to determine the rate of
twist. I got a different answer each time. I suspect because the
barrel is so rusty inside.
 
The fabric appears to be plain white cotton sheet (bedded the barrel
with real bedding? No, I didn't say that.). None of it was visible when
the barrel was in the stock.
 
If you don't mind, I may ask you to put a couple pix on the antique
section to ask for advice on how to treat it for the future. The wrist
is basically held on with the last barrel tang screw and the TG screw.
   

[Curt J]

I agree that this appears to be a New York rifle, but a quick check of THE NEW YORK STATE FIREARMS TRADE did not come up with a match. There were several gunsmiths named "Potter", but none with the "N" initial. There was an Elam Potter, of NYC, who was issued a patent on a cartridge in 1862; an H. Potter & Co. (probably Clyde, NY); and William C. Potter, Ballston Spa, NY, circa 1843-1852, and in Clyde, NY, circa 1860-1870.

[Curt J]

I believe I have found him. His name was Noadyer Potter, and he worked in the Village of Dowagiac, Cass County, Michigan. He was 46 years old in the 1860 census, born in Ohio. He had four children, all born in Michigan, the oldest in 1843. Jim Kelly, in his book MICHIGAN GUNSMITHS of the 19th & early 20th Centuries, describes a target rifle, with back action lock, muzzle turned for a guide bullet starter, with barrel stamped N. POTTER.

[nord]

Shelby also questioned the NY connection. I just hate it when that pesky Gallien is correct! . Or at least seems to be correct.

Here's something we all need to remember...

One of my family names is Worden. My particular branch of the Wordens lived just west of Rome, NY in the Town of Lee. My great grandmother's writings speak of a number of these Wordens as being seafaring people. From central NY in the mid 1800's? What would be the chances? At least that's what I initially thought.

After some research...

Capt. John Worden - USS Monitor for starters. Another Worden lost somewhere off Central America. And perhaps most interesting is the number of Wordens involved in the Great Lakes trade. The family "commuted" between NY and Wisconsin via the lake trade with branches extending down the Mississippi. Seafaring didn't always mean salt water.

Considering the above, why should anyone be too surprised to see a NY/Ohio style gun made far to the west? And the gun being found in Marathon, NY... Why not? Those old boys got around.

Hats off to you Shelby. (It's still a NY gun.)

[mr. no gold]

Anyone can be a skeptic; the real credit here goes to Curt for tracking Potter, the obscure, down and finding him to have been a Michigan maker. Congratulations Curt! And, thanks for your research. It appears that Potter could have possibly learned the trade in NY state.
Dick 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

What an interesting story!  If you are looking for support, I cannot see any reason not to include the rifle in the museum.  Thank you for bringing the rifle to light.

[Majorjoel]

Great job of tracking Curt! If you take a close look at a lot of mid to late 19th century Michigan made rifles, you will find it hard to differentiate from NY work. Especially without signatures. Now for the question about the cotton fabric wrapped around the barrel. I have never seen this done before. Have found a lot of similar stuff down the bores of many old rifles. Some folks used to think an oil or grease rag would help keep the bore nice. It of coarse eventually lead to corrossion. I am very curious as to how the barrel fits the stock with the fabric wrap around it?? Has there been wood removed in the barrel channel to facilitate? I do not think I would leave the wrap on it. Could use some oiling and TLC. Thats just my opinion here.

[Curt J]

The only example of cloth in the barrel channel that I have seen, is on a percussion schuetzen rifle I have, which was made by Frederick J. Abbey in Chicago.  It has several strips of linen, neatly spaced, bedding the barrel. The fit is very precise.  Abbey came from New York, by-the-way.

I'm thinking that the N. POTTER rifle might have been considered a "hunting & target rifle", especially since it was made to use a guide bullet starter for a picket bullet.  There is a good chance that the rifling is gain-twist, perhaps part of the reason the twist is difficult to measure.  There is a round-headed screw with a washer under it about midway up the tang. I'm wondering whether that is a machine scew, and whether the tang is threaded there for a "lollipop" tang sight?

[Majorjoel]

Just an afterthought, the cloth was used on an undersized barrel to make it fit the channel???

[Curt J]

I just took the F. J. Abbey rifle apart to see.  The linen is very thin and is in two strips about two inches wide, spaced about six inches apart. The fit is very tight, and the barrel does not appear undersized in relation to the barrel channel.

[Levy]

I cleaned a pistol from the 1733 wreck of the San Jose Y Las Animas many years ago and it had a folded piece of material under the barrel where it was pinned in the stock.  I assumed that the barrel was loose in the stock and the material was added to tack up the slack/rattle.  The pistol was made by T. Probin or I. Clarkson.

James Levy

[Majorjoel]

Linen fabric barrel bedding! A very interesting concept! It would perhaps work as a shock absorber for some of those hefty loads I suppose. I guess I will retract my statement about removing the cloth on the Potter rifle pictured. It would be best to keep things as is. Makes for interesting discussion.

[T*O*F]

Linen fabric barrel bedding! A very interesting concept!

Obviously it has been around for eons, but in modern terms it's called "soft bedding."  I learned about it perhaps 20 years ago.  I put a linen cleaning patch near the schnable of my offhand percussion halfstock which I shoot monthly matches with.  It improved my scores.  It is still there after all these years.

[nord]

Just checked the white pages... 12 Potters listed in Marathon. You don't suppose any connection???

[Dale Campbell]

The only example of cloth in the barrel channel that I have seen, is on a percussion schuetzen rifle I have, which was made by Frederick J. Abbey in Chicago.  It has several strips of linen, neatly spaced, bedding the barrel. The fit is very precise.  Abbey came from New York, by-the-way.

I'm thinking that the N. POTTER rifle might have been considered a "hunting & target rifle", especially since it was made to use a guide bullet starter for a picket bullet.  There is a good chance that the rifling is gain-twist, perhaps part of the reason the twist is difficult to measure.  There is a round-headed screw with a washer under it about midway up the tang. I'm wondering whether that is a machine scew, and whether the tang is threaded there for a "lollipop" tang sight?

As an update: the round-headed screw does in fact fit in a threaded hole in the tang.  The tumbler does not have a half-cock notch. Coupled with the turned muzzle this seems to indicate a target rifle.

The cotton (probably) cloth only covers the bottom three flats of the barrel.  I had lifted it to look for any marks underneath.  Since it was found in Marathon, just south of Ilion, I fully expected to see a stamp that started with "Rem" and ended with "ington".  But nada.

[nord]

Dale -

Not heavy enough to be considered a beef or chunk gun. Late enough to be designed for the picket or sugarloaf bullet. This type of projectile required a starter to ensure the bullet was placed on an axis parallel to the bore. I'd still make the call that this was primarily a hunting gun for the reason stated and by virtue of the iron sights.

If a NY gun, then I'd assume the same as you about the Remington barrel... Until you consider that Losey made fine barrels just over the hill from Marathon to the west toward Ithaca.

But I think the rifle was probably made in Michigan as has been discussed. The barrel could have come from numerous makers. Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and westward. For that matter the Remington stamp may have been removed. Who knows?

I'll still bet that Potter was influenced by someone here in NY. Though I'd love to discover the details, I doubt we ever will know much beyond that which we've already discovered.

A great little halfstock all the same.

[Dale Campbell]

I was looking for any names underneath the barrel before Curt J pulled that needle out of the haystack. 

I still haven't found a reliable way to get the rate of twist correctly.  If the rod goes down easy, I feel like I'm turning the rod. If it goes down hard, I feel like I'm pushing it over the lands.  Open to suggestions.

All I have done to this gun so far is put a light coat of oil on it, and remove any large scale deposits. In the fired position, the mainspring rests completely on the wood of the inlet, so the hammer actually doesn't reach the nipple.  I intend to leave it that way.

The wrist was broken completely through.  The butt is only held to the rest of the stock by the last tang screw and one trigger guard screw.  The trigger guard has already bent some. The owner has asked if I would repair it sufficiently to safely stabilize it. I don't feel this to be too far beyond me, and the rifle itself does not appear to be valuable. Please correct me if I am wrong.

First do no harm. I have removed old glue between the two stock parts.  I intend to re-glue the pieces.  I may need to remove some oil in the interior of the wrist to get a good bond.  Any suggestions?

Assuming I get a good bond, should I consider putting a dowel though the wrist? Or maybe a screw? I don't expect this rifle will ever be anything but hung on the wall.  It will be handled, though probably not shot.  Of course, it did have that firecracker down the barrel, so who knows?

[nord]

Twist rate is unimportant except to satisfy your curiosity. You might consider removal of the barrel while the stock is being repaired. A good scrubbing with a copper brush, very hot water and soap would be beneficial. This followed by a good oil inside and out.

If the stock is not permeated with oil, then a good epoxy will do the trick. Photos indicate to me that the mating surfaces are still fairly intact and I'd attempt to stay away from dowels. Dowels primarily being used to position a broken stock when fillers are being placed.

Value? You mentioned "not much". Probably correct if compared to a $30k long rifle, but look at what's being said about that trade Leman. Maybe a bit earlier than this gun and it can claim a PA ancestry, but I expect not overly different in value.

[JTR]

Dale,
For gluing the stock back together, I've used this glue and know it works.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2432&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=weldwood_resin_glue

It also dries as hard as a rock and is unbelievably strong. No need to use dowels with this stuff, just make glue dowels by drilling a couple 1/4" diameter or so holes in the butt end, and an adjacent set in the wrist end.
Clean off any grease or oil in the wood, so the glue has solid wood to bond to. Mix the glue. Fill the holes fully with glue, then cover the remaining areas with glue. Fit the two pieces together and clamp them in place to let the glue dry.
Figure out your clamping set up before applying the glue.
This glue won't stain, but you can add a bit of water base stain to the glue while you're mixing it to approximate the color you need.
Clean off what ever glue ozzes out of the crack before it sets up with a damp paper towel. Otherwise you'll have to file it off.
As for strength, following the directions on the can, and once set up, the wood will break long before the glue will break.

John

[Tom Moore]

You can use a lamp with a 75W bulb (or more) held close to the break to help remove any oil that might interfere with the glue joint. The oil will "boil" up to the surface from the heat of the bulb and you can wipe it off with a rag and a little mineral spirits or whatever solvent you like. Keep your eye on it so you don't burn the wood. The smaller the bulb, the slower and safer it goes. -Tom

[Dale Campbell]

Thanks, Bruce, John and Tom. After due deliberation, this is where I am:

I have looked into the Weldwood resin. I am leaning to Titebond II instead.  Arguments for and against appreciated. 

There are other cracks in the wrist which I don't know if I can even get superglue into, and certainly can't get oil out of.  I would rather have the glue joint fail than further damage to the wrist.  I have used the lamp and solvent to remove oil, and dental picks to remove old glue.

I desperately need suggestions on clamping.  The break is directly across the wrist, and obvious ways to do this don't seem very reliable.  Help?

[Tom Moore]

Cut a long strip from an old bicycle inner tube and wrap it tightly around the joint. If you're carefull, and practice a bit, it will hold everything in place right where it should go. Even the little splinters. You can use a little plastic wrap between the tube and stock, or anything else, to stop the glue from squeezing out and adhering the tube to the wood. -Tom

[bluenoser]

I have been fortunate in that I have never had to repair a wrist broken at such a blunt angle.  I have repaired furniture with similar breaks.

Although wrapping the break with surgical tubing or innertube is a very effective method of clamping, I don't think that alone will work in this case.  I think the pieces will slip out of alignment and the joint will not be tightly drawn together.  What I am going to propose will sound complicated, but you need to ensure the joint will be drawn together while staying in alignment.

I would use a piece of 2X8 (if 7 1/2" is wide enough) a little longer than the gun as a base.  Make 2 contoured spacer blocks to hold the forward section lock side up, parallel to and about 1 - 2 inches above the face of the 2x8.  fasten the blocks to the base and clamp the forward section in place.  fasten a stop block to the base at the muzzle so the piece cannot move forward when the wrist is clamped.  Make one or two contoured spacer blocks to to hold the butt section in correct alignment and fasten them to the base.  I have had best success by intentionally making the second set of blocks a little low and then shimming between the blocks and base as necessary.  Clamp the butt section in place and shim both pieces as necessary to correct any misalignment. Fasten a stop block to the base at about the mid point of the buttplate.  Now wrap the joint as advised while watching your alignment and the tightness of the joint.  You can shim between a stop block and the gun if you need to draw the joint up tighter.

I think I would leave the tang in place and put the trigger plate in place while gluing to aid in alignment.  Be sure to coat them well with a good release agent such as paste wax and make sure they have some draft and no pitting along the edges to grab the glue.

Once you are happy with the setup, remove the wrap, unclamp the butt section, apply the glue and re-clamp. Since the break is at such a bad angle, I would be inclined to install a couple loose fitting blind pins if using epoxy.  Based on my experience, most other adhesives lack sufficient gap filling strength to lock loose pins in place.  It appears there will be a fairly wide glue joint at the surface.  Although epoxy is not as strong as many other adhesives I think I would favor it because it can be tinted and it has reasonably good gap filling strength.  Titebond and similar glues will stand out as light colored lines when they have to fill gaps.

I know this may sound overly complicated, but it can sure lower the stress level when the glue is on and the clamp is being applied.

Laurie