Author Topic: I Hawkins lock on ebay  (Read 8938 times)

Offline Robert Wolfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1286
  • Great X Grandpa
I Hawkins lock on ebay
« on: March 26, 2010, 12:40:54 AM »
What do you guys think about the I Hawkins lock on ebay? About $950 and about 15 bids if I remember right. All the internals are rusted away. Neat looking lock but that is a lot of money. Wonder if it destined to replace a missing lock on a gun?

It is item 300410111828 and I have nothing to do with it.
Robert Wolfe
Northern Indiana

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 12:47:59 AM »
I have alot of suspicion about that particular lock. I don't think it was underground very long.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 01:17:12 AM »
Somebody sure thinks they know something...upped the bid $200 from $650 to $850 in one move!!  Doesn't look like the real article to me...too much damage on the back and none on the front???
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2010, 01:35:54 AM »
It does seem strange that the lock is rusted everywhere, except for the name area.

I wonder if anyone makes copies of this type of lock, including the name and touch mark? Maybe Blackley?

If it's just an out and out fake, someone would have to go to an awful lot of work to fake it with the name and touchmark, for not a heck of a lot of return.

But then again, even if it is the real deal, is it worth the price? One bidder seems intent of getting it, so who knows how much higher the price will go?
Unless I had a gun that needed that lock, I wouldn't have bid more than a couple hundred at most.
John
John Robbins

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 02:24:28 AM »
Would someone post a link here please?
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 02:49:25 AM »
Taylor,
Copy the item # in the first post, go to ebay.com, and paste the # on the 'Search' line.
It'll take you right to it.
John
John Robbins

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 04:26:09 AM »
Thanks John...just lazy.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 04:32:34 AM »
I just had a look at it...I don't know.  I'm skeptical...the inside is completely disolved, but the engraving is sharp!?
Whoever did the write up is practically illiterate. 
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Rootsy

  • Guest
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 05:10:49 AM »
With the exterior being in such good condition compared to the guts where is the cock?  Why is the tumbler shaft gone?  At least on the exterior... The rear lock bolt is gone, the hole is empty, but the front appears to be there and is eroded flush with the lock plate???  Fasteners just don't deteriorate in that fashion...

Offline Tom Moore

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2010, 08:17:07 PM »
Why are there 2 mainsprings? If that thing's real, then I'm  monkey's uncle! Oh! You probably already knew that! ;D
And, Where's that big bidder when I'm trying to sell something??  ;) -Tom

Offline Randy Hedden

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2250
  • American Mountain Men #1393
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 11:29:03 PM »
Guys,

I get a real chuckle every time something like this comes up.  Everybody is suspicious of this lock for various reasons that might or might not be legitimate.  Why do we talk about how a lock wouldn't rust that way or how come the engraved signature is so crisp.  I wouldn't lay odds on how any metal object would rust away.  The signature probably looks crisper than other parts of the lock because the seller has absolutely no inkling on how we would like him to treat the lock and has most likely sanded or steel wooled the signature area to actually allow the signature to show and be photographed.  The seller undoubtedly has no concept of how a lock was built, functioned or used.  I would say he found the lock and the extra main spring together and assumed that they somehow go together.  However, we can look at this item all day and not be able to tell if it is a fraud or an actual dug lock.

Therefore, we should look elsewhere for some verification.  I notice the seller is located in St. Ignace, Michigan, an area that has an old and rich history of French activity going back to the 1600's and before.  What better area to treasure hunt with a metal detector?  If any one doubts that wonderful relics exist in that area they only need to look at museum collections in upper Michigan.

If you click on "see other items" you will see what else the seller has listed on Ebay.  This seller has 16 other items that are all "Dug Items" and some of them are very nice relics of the early French involvement in and around the Great Lakes.  He has dug French long knives, French clasp knives, trade silver pieces, Trade awls, military buttons, etc.  All of these items are definitely "dug" items and are spot on for relics found in upper Michigan.  If you look at the seller's Ebay rating you see that he has had 1325 transactions on Ebay and has a 100% feedback rating.  You just don't have that many transactions while maintaining a 100% feedback rating if you are selling fake or fraudulent items.  When he has an item that he is not sure of the era the item came from he says he doesn't know.  (See his auction for a trade silver bracelet) If you click on the 1325 number by the sellers name you can look at past Ebay transactions for this seller and find that he mostly sells dug items and for reasonable dollar amounts.

Now, is the lock legitimate or not, I don't really know, but I would bet that the seller located this item with a metal detector and dug it right up there in Michigan.  Looking at the other items the seller presently has listed  or already sold, and the reputation he has built for himself on Ebay, I am inclined to believe that the lock is an original that he dug.

If the seller's reaction to this auction is anything like my reaction to some auctions  I have had on Ebay, he is following the auction closely and thinking why would anybody pay $1,000 or more for this item.  Anyone who has sold on Ebay knows there is no rhyme or reason to how much or why any bidder bids the amounts they do.

Randy Hedden
American Mountain Men #1393

Offline Fullstock longrifle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2010, 12:24:13 AM »
Randy is right on the money with this one and makes excellent points.

For many years I was a passionate relic hunter and searched Civil War camps and Colonial sites.  I have found a ton of artifacts through the years, all in different states of deterioration.  But I noticed a strange thing about some of the artifacts I found.  The soil it was found in has a lot to do with how iron rusts.  Most of the things I found in Maryland were rusted badly, but in some areas of Virginia, especially in rocky soil, iron artifacts sometimes came out of the ground in remarkable condition. I once found an English bowie knife in a Confederate camp in Virginia that was in such good shape, I could still read the makers stamp on the blade!

A couple of years ago I began to follow this Ebay seller because of the relics he was finding and selling.  He has found some fantastic tomahawks and guns (as well as gun parts) through out the years.  He must have a big following because I've seen tomahawks and muskets he's dug sell for nearly as much as a non dug item.  A couple of years ago he sold an engraved spike tomahawk that was in fantastic condition and it showed most of it's engraving!  It brought a lot of money, and justifiably so.  

I'm with Randy, I think this lock is the genuine item, and several relic collectors are vying for it.  I would love to relic hunt in the area he's finding this stuff, it must be great soil.

Frank  
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 01:50:18 AM by Fullstock »

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2010, 01:31:10 AM »
I’d say all the doubting is due to ebays reputation as a haven for shyster dealers selling junk, fakes, misrepresented items, etc, etc, etc.

I can agree with you that this lock is probably the real deal simply because there’s not much point in going to all the trouble to fake it, for what would be minimal returns for your efforts.

And even with all of ebays junk, I still shop there from time to time, doing my best to sift through the junk, sometimes coming up with something good, and sometimes coming up with a Tibetan strike-a-lite! ;D

John
John Robbins

Offline Fullstock longrifle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2010, 03:45:26 PM »
The relic lock brought $1,525.00, that's incredible!

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2010, 04:06:18 PM »
Wow! ;D
Two guys duking it out over the lock!
Either they know something I don't know (which is entirely possible), or someone might wake up with a bit of buyers remorse over this one.
And it certainly won't be the seller!
John
John Robbins

Offline Fullstock longrifle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2010, 04:45:29 PM »
Your right John, it looks like it was mostly two guys fighting for it, the lock had 25 bids.  Hmmm, I have a few locks that I would take $1,525.00 for!

Like I said before, this guy gets incredible money for his dug relics, if any of you live in that area, you should ask for a metal detector for Christmas.   ;D

Frank

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2010, 11:27:30 PM »
I'm going to start burying locks......
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2010, 08:06:58 PM »
Your right John, it looks like it was mostly two guys fighting for it, the lock had 25 bids.  Hmmm, I have a few locks that I would take $1,525.00 for!

Like I said before, this guy gets incredible money for his dug relics, if any of you live in that area, you should ask for a metal detector for Christmas.   ;D

Frank

Or find his formula for rusting steel.
Sorry I have trust issues.
Only a fool would give 1525 for a lock he had not personally inspected very carefully.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

NORTHTRADE

  • Guest
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2010, 10:31:28 PM »
What is missing in this topic is that this man digs relics only.  He gets the prices he does because what he sells he has found in the area, minimizing the possibility of a fake as so often found at auctions or gun shows.  Provenance is everything when dealing with trade items.  This early lock represent what may be the earliest English lock associated with the Indian trade.  The sitting fox stamp is significant  as it is a very early style with few existing examples.  This is no ordinary lock by any means.

Offline tallbear

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4053
  • Mitch Yates
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2010, 10:47:54 PM »
Northtrade
I'm sorry I see no provience associated with this piece.I see a very vague discription and a lock with a very inconsistent patina.If this piece is legit why was a better description not  presented.Surly that would add to the value.Just seems that the "vague description "is often used on ebay to limit liability when the  truth is discovered.

Mitch

NORTHTRADE

  • Guest
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2010, 01:02:32 AM »
You are right vague descriptions.  This guy never details his items, they just Stand on their own merit in the photos and let the buyers judge their legitimacy.  I have seen many of his items and they are all correct.  He is fortunate to live near the straits of Mackinac giving him access to great material sometimes beyond belief.  Could it be a fake?  Possibly, but knowing what he has sold and where he is digging I would be surprised.  Investigate this lock with the Peddell lock in Gooding's HBC gun book, very similar. Bailly also mentions a British board of ordinance contract for guns to the Iroquois.  Had this lock been found in the South I would question how it got there, but Mackinac is a good fit. Whether real or not big money was paid, it would be great to know the buyers feelings about it.

Offline mr. no gold

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2654
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2010, 01:27:29 AM »
If this guy is out there looting historic sites on public lands, you can be sure that I hope he gets nailed for his activities! The sooner the better.
Dick

The other DWS

  • Guest
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2010, 01:35:14 AM »
I have real mixed feelings about "relic hunters".  while Michigan has some laws governing some sites, private land and even some state forest areas are open with no real regulation-----as long as you are not messing with burial sites.  and the Straits area is simply lousy with unmarked camp and village sites

The Straits had some of the oldest "permanent" French establishments in the midwest and even before that it was a significant chokepoint in the pre-contact Native American inter-tribal trade.  All those beaches were used as camping areas and casual trading points---dang near anything could have been lost, mislaid, or wrecked there.  {Frankly this guy might some day come up with bona fide Norse artifacts that were being traded west among the NA.}   Corrosion does some real strange things when you are dealing with the differing soils, water types, and the climate conditions in that region.  I've seen artifacts that looked minty on one end, and corroded beyond recognition on the other.  It just depends on where they were laying, what was next to them and what the chemical micro-environment they were in was like.

some time take a look at some of the Canadian "up-from-the-rapids"  artifacts

Offline Fullstock longrifle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2010, 02:59:34 AM »
It's hard to tell where this guy is finding his stuff, and I agree that it's inappropriate (as well as illegal) to hunt on protected sites.  When I was involved in relic hunting, I always hunted on private land and always obtained permission from the land owner first.  I suppose legitimate ethical concerns can be brought up about relic hunting, just as concerns are brought up by different groups concerning hunting or the shooting sports.  But here's the rub, most of the best sites are located on private property and never properly dug by an archeologist.  Based on my personal experience, if the site isn't going to be scientifically investigated, I feel it's better to get the relics out of the ground, rather than have the sites bulldozed and a housing development or parking lot put on top of them.  At least the artifact is saved. 

lastly, I don't know the guy who found the lock and sold it on Ebay, but he has perfect feedback and a big following and that speaks to the honesty of the dealer and the quality of his relics.  If he's hunting illegally, I hope he gets caught and punished, if he's hunting legally, I hope he keeps finding great stuff and putting it up for sale.  :)

The other DWS

  • Guest
Re: I Hawkins lock on ebay
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2010, 04:26:01 AM »
One of the best (in the sense of scientific archaeology) sites that the Mackinac Island Park Commission group excavated was the one called "French Farm" .

 If I remember the details correctly from my talks with Heldman and Widder, it was located by relic hunters who realized what they had found and reported it to the Commission.

In some cases the relic hunters work well with archaeologists;  a significant case is the Little Bighorn battle field surveys which opened the doors for a major advance in archaeological technique and analysis.

In others it is little more than pot hunting and grave robbing.   In cases of potential finds in advance of construction there are a few specific laws that require archaeological survey in advance of construction and time and budget allotment for "salvage archaeology".

Obviously this is a real hot button topic that I have strong, but sometimes ambivalent, feeling about