How much prime in the pan?

[Muleskinner]

How many grains of prime in the pan works the best for fast ignition when target shooting?

[roundball]

I suspect it depends on things like the size of the pan in a particular lock, and the relationship to the vent location, etc.

I happen to use 'pocket pan primers' with 3grn plunger / dispenser tips for the convenience and consistency.....works great with medium size locks that T/C and Lyman use...as well as the Chambers deluxe siler on my Virginia.

[Muleskinner]

3 grains is what mine throws.....I read somewhere that 1 grain was enough?   anyone use this amount?

[Dphariss]

3 grains is what mine throws.....I read somewhere that 1 grain was enough?   anyone use this amount?

I never use just one stab with my little (non-HC) pan charger always at least 2.
I might use a 1/2 pan full when shooting targets but I fill the pan at least 3/4 full for hunting.
Light prime charges will allow the prime to "bank" to one side of the pan or the other. I want the entire pan to have powder regardless of how the pan it tipped. This means the first spark in the pan hits powder no matter where it lands.
Light priming charges are the prime cause of flashes in the pan  in my experience.
Dan

[northmn]

Depends a great dealon the location of the vent and the guns use.  On a target range it is best to fill to the bottom of the vent or so (I do not use a charger).  I have recently been forced to redo the vent on two rifles because I placed the vent even with the top of the pan.  When carrying them hunting I was getting primer in the touch hole which tended to cause that long psst before the gun goes off.  I have switched to the sunset position where the bottom of the touch hole is to the top of the pan and I can fill the pan.  On the one English style lock I use for hunting that also means a larger area of primer for sparks to hit.  When I used the rifles for targets it did not matter as back then an old saw was to only fill the pan half full.  I do not think I was the only one not positioning the vent correctly.  For squirrel hunting and deer hunting I check the primer a great deal.

DP

[babills]

mine only throws 1 grain i believe. Its little and just leaves alittle pile in front of the touch hole. Its very fast. I used my sons 3 grain the other day, and i could definately tell a difference. more powder=slower. but not by much.

[Dphariss]

Depends a great dealon the location of the vent and the guns use.  On a target range it is best to fill to the bottom of the vent or so (I do not use a charger).  I have recently been forced to redo the vent on two rifles because I placed the vent even with the top of the pan.  When carrying them hunting I was getting primer in the touch hole which tended to cause that long psst before the gun goes off.  I have switched to the sunset position where the bottom of the touch hole is to the top of the pan and I can fill the pan.  On the one English style lock I use for hunting that also means a larger area of primer for sparks to hit.  When I used the rifles for targets it did not matter as back then an old saw was to only fill the pan half full.  I do not think I was the only one not positioning the vent correctly.  For squirrel hunting and deer hunting I check the primer a great deal.

DP

Larry Pletcher's timing shows that covering the vent makes no difference and that a lower vent might actually increase heat to the main charge.
These tests have debunked a lot of things.

Dan

[Daryl]

When I want the fastest ignition, I fill the pan - I want a HOT flash in the pan. At times,I will even tilt the rifle to the left & give it a shake (I'm right handed) so the powder will bank towards the vent as much as the pan cover will allow.  This seems to work for me and Larry's testings show this as well as well.  My vents are even with the top of the pan, except for the .32, which has a very high vent hole.  In orther to get it to fire well, I had to bit the bullet and grind off the screw slot (tohigh to install a the enxt side inWhitelightning liner) into a mild dish. This one really pays off with banking the prime against the side of the barrel.

Pans are all different sizes and take different amounts of pime.  You'll just have to try your rifle with various amounts of prime.  There is no set rule saying THIS works, and THIS doesn't.  You actually have to get out and shoot it to find what it wants.

[northmn]

Larry Pletcher's timing shows that covering the vent makes no difference and that a lower vent might actually increase heat to the main charge.
These tests have debunked a lot of things.

Dan

When Pletcher tested the speed he did not fill the touch hole with primer.  That gives a very definite fusing effect that anyone with a little experience has noticed.  you can get by with about anything on a target range but carrying a rifle a few yards in the woods makes a difference.  Try it yourself and take a vent pick and puch some primer into the vent.

DP

[Candle Snuffer]

I try to guesstimate 2/3rds full in my Pan's.  Not the easiest thing to do priming from a small priming horn while just tapping the prime in the Pan, but it works for me and I have good ignition.  I would agree that you need to experiment to see what works best for you.

[hanshi]

My priming tool throws 3 grains +- with each push.  One push of the plunger is usually enough.  Sometimes it is considerably less and I do two pushes till my eyeball is satisfied.  I generally go for more than not enough.

[roundball]

Larry Pletcher's timing shows that covering the vent makes no difference and that a lower vent might actually increase heat to the main charge.
These tests have debunked a lot of things.

Dan

When Pletcher tested the speed he did not fill the touch hole with primer.  That gives a very definite fusing effect that anyone with a little experience has noticed.  you can get by with about anything on a target range but carrying a rifle a few yards in the woods makes a difference.  Try it yourself and take a vent pick and puch some primer into the vent.
DP

DP, actually I believe that Larry's test did include covering / allowing prime into the vent...very fast...and the reason I remember it as well as I do is this:

Having used T/C Flintlocks for a good 10 years, I became very familiar with T/Cs owner's manual, and used to always shake my head whenever I'd see T/Cs statement about filling the vent with 4F "to lay a fuse into the main charge"...because I just "knew" that couldn't be right due to all the forum posts I'd read saying "prime should be banked away from the vent so the vent is not covered as that will cause slow ignition".

Then, as soon as Larry published his tests, I just shook my head again...at myself...for not having believed what T/C had been publishing since they started in 1970.

When I saw Larry's tests I thought well, that does make sense, with all the talk of internal (and external) coning of vents, once the main powder charge is bump-bump-bumped to settle it all the way down and over to the backside of the touchhole...there's already powder laying there in the form of a mini fuse back in to the main charge...ie: I can see kernels of 3F main sitting in the touchholes of my vents...

[northmn]

Then what causes the fusing as I have had that happen many times and do not need a timer to tell me its slower??

DP

[roundball]

Then what causes the fusing as I have had that happen many times and do not need a timer to tell me its slower??

DP

Not an expert DP...just commented that I believe Larry's tests did include prime against the vent...he'll probably see this thread and can correct me if I'm remembering it wrong for which I shall be embarrassed 

[northmn]

The prime AGAINST the vent does make sense, but what I had found was when the prime entered the vent area. Now a liner like the WL may decrease that somewhat but in the old liners you would hear a fuse then bang.  As long as I remember that has been due to getting powder in the vent itself.  Almost like the primer has to burn through to get to the charge.  The methods I have used seem to prevent it.  I always stuck a toothpick or some such thing in the vent when loading, whcih helped performance, also admittedly eliminated flashes, but it seemed to help otehrwise also.  On a target range you can kind of pile up powder against the vent but cayying a fowler in the field?

DP

[Roger Fisher]

I cover the bottom of the pan with the prime and go!

[roundball]

Now a liner like the WL may decrease that somewhat but in the old liners you would hear a fuse then bang.  As long as I remember that has been due to getting powder in the vent itself.  Almost like the primer has to burn through to get to the charge.  The methods I have used seem to prevent it.  I always stuck a toothpick or some such thing in the vent when loading, whcih helped performance, also admittedly eliminated flashes, but it seemed to help otehrwise also.

Actually that could well be the situation here...we're talking about two different configurations all together:

A straight walled breech plug with a straight fire channel of some length like a tunnel from the outside in to the main = time;
But the toothpick holds the "tunnel" open for the heat/flame to shoot in unimpeded = fast;
VS.
A coned breechplug with a vent liner heavily coned inside & out...a very thin touch hole wall separating the main charge from the pan flash = fast;

[Herb]

I use Track's Flask-PP-3.  Says it throws about 3 grains of 4F powder.  I usually just give it a quick push against the pan, which is very little powder.  So today I weighed that.  The amount is so little that I did five pushes in my powder scale pan and averaged them.  The average was about .6 to .8 grain of 4F, which works fine for me.  If I have a flash in the pan, I pick the vent to put a hole in the powder column and then it goes.  But if the valve spring is pushed and held, more powder comes out.  I discovered that if I held the valve down to the count of five, I got a lot of powder out of it, about three grains.  What happens there is that the spring loaded hole allows powder to fill up the whole push spout, and lifting the valve shuts the hole off.  If I have trouble with flashes in the pan (as with my flint hooked breech plug), a sure cure was to tip the priming powder into the flash hole and reprime the pan.  If I wanted to be certain of a flinter going off, I'd tip the flash powder (4F) into the flash hole.  This is based on hundreds of shots.

[Daryl]

The web between the pan and the inner charge will cause delays if filled with powder.  With the WL liner, there isn't a channel as much as a simple hole separating pan from charge by a thin skin of metal. As noted before, when I push the ball down onto the powder, I can see powder through the hole in the vent. It's right there.

[northmn]

My experience based on more than a few shots got me to place a vent pick or better a round toothpick in the touchhole when loading.  I used to do so for a 1/16 touch hole to make sure the vent is clear.  Now that I have been trying the 070 touch holes if using 3f I do so to prevent self priming.  I can admit to staying with some older techniques such as the sunset position of the vent.  Still they seemed to work best.  For instance the "sunset" position of the touch hole above the pan where maybe part of the bottom of the touch hole is in the plane of the top of the pan.  Seems to alleviate the fusing effect where you hear a definite pssst before ignition.  I used to hear that a lot when I filled the touchhole with powder.  Because I use this configuration I fill the pan with powder, which will vary depending on the pan.  Sometimes there is a tradeoff between reliability and speed of ignition.  For instance for one rifle I carry I use 3f in the pan as it likes to leak out 4f when I carry it.  I have touched up the fit a little but it still wants to leak if there is any kind of crud on the rim.  My fix for that rifle is replacement as it is jinxed.   For my 25 squirrel rifle I always recheck when I get to where I want to wait, and double check the prime.   

DP

[roundball]

"...one rifle I carry I use 3f in the pan as it likes to leak out 4f when I carry it..."

Had a brand new lock that leaked out 4F like that...the frizzen bridle was an eyelash too high for the frizzen to lay down flat on the pan's front edge. (or the pan's front edge was too low).

I tried a new frizzen and pivot screw I had on hand but it didn't help...sent the lock back they replaced it, new one was fine.

[northmn]

That one is not too bad if one is very careful about priming it and not getting anything on the top of the pan.  Used it mostly for targets, then let them set a while as I did not shoot ML's for a while.  Lock is way beyond warranty.  That particular rifle  is totally jinxed anyway.  Rarely see a deer if I carry it and it will screw up if I do.  Some of it was my fault as the old target sights were not adaptable to older eyes and the woods.  When I fixed those it hang fired on a deer just like I described where you could hear the fusing.  Was not a trophy but would have tasted good. What works on a target range does not work so well in the forest.  On the range I could prime to whatever level I wanted, leakage was no problem as I did not carry it that far, and the sights would show up against a black bullseye.  Actually the 3f primer in that rifle does not work that bad and might be an answer if one wanted powder up against the touch hole.

DP

[Larry Pletcher]

I missed this topic until now.  I was in Houston with our students at the Shell Eco Marathon.  (One high school beat us.)  Regarding the priming amount and location, In my tests I weighed out .75 gr of Swiss Null B.  for all of these tests and photos.  In the fastest trials the vent was covered but not filled.  The prime was moved up against the barrel very carefully with a pencil eraser shaped to fit the pan bottom.  I moved the prime gently against the barrel but tried to allow no prime into the WL web.  The web was measured at .030". 

If I were priming on the gun,  would use more because I want a bed of prime for sparks to land.  But, some prime would would be against the barrel .030" from the barrel charge. I try to offer information and not opinion, but here is an opinion.  When the barrel charge and the prime are .030" apart, we don't have 2 charges - we have one charge.  Imagine pouring a charge on a piece of white paper and use a .030" leaf feeler gauge to separate the powders.  Now light it.  If you separate the powders by the width of a barrel will it be slower?  I bet.  Pletcher's bonfire theory is that the closer you stand to the fire, the hotter it is. 

OK - no more opinions.  That and a buck didn't buy me a Coke in Houston - probably won't for you either.
Regards,
Pletch

[Daryl]

Larry - your information on testing is priceless - come up here to Rendezvous 2010 (Hefley Creek) and I'll buy you super and whatever you want to drink - maybe more than 1 supper.

[Larry Pletcher]

Larry - your information on testing is priceless - come up here to Rendezvous 2010 (Hefley Creek) and I'll buy you super and whatever you want to drink - maybe more than 1 supper.

Hi Daryl,
Thank you for your kind comments.  Hefley Creek sounds like fun even if it seems to be a fur piece to an old "Hoosier" guy.  It would be fun to chew the fat with you, your brother, and your shooting friends.  If I think I can get my truck that far, I'll be sure to warn you.
Regards,
Pletch