Author Topic: Moles  (Read 11051 times)

Offline Tom Cooper

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Moles
« on: August 28, 2008, 01:10:08 AM »
Not sure if this is pertinant to this particular forum but it is an issue for all of those that persue this hobby.

I just recieved this today in e-mail from a member working out of state and am not sure of his sources, but I do believe the threat to be real.

" I just got some disturbing news from a fairly reliable source, that the BATF is sending out undercover agents (again) to various re-inactment events like ours and Civil War etc. and setting people up with lines like "hey buddy I ran out of powder can I buy some from ya?" Well there is a felony conviction, jail time, and a $10,000 fine not to mention confiscation"
Tom

The best way I know of to ruin a perfectly plain longrifle is to carve and engrave it

roundball

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Re: Moles
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2008, 01:22:20 AM »
That's interesting...my understanding of the BATF regs is that a person can't "sell" BP without a license...but I understood the context of that to mean I can't order cases of BP and start routinely "selling it" without a license.
I'm not sure, and would be very disappointed if that would mean a guy can't even just let a fellow shooter have a can at cost... ???

Offline Alan Gommel

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Re: Moles
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 02:10:40 AM »
Even letting him have a can at cost is considered selling the powder without a license because money changed hands.
Alan

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Moles
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 03:09:32 AM »
This story has been floated around the net numerous times in the past.  Someone probably revived it again.  It has happened, but usually because of a tip received about someone selling powder at Rendevous.

The more common thing is for Conservation Police attending and looking for exotic or prohibited furs and animal parts.
Dave Kanger

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-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Tom Cooper

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Re: Moles
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 03:20:36 AM »
I have filled a horn or two, but never sold the stuff. Just common sense I spose, need to stay ever vigilent.
Tom

The best way I know of to ruin a perfectly plain longrifle is to carve and engrave it

William Worth

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Re: Moles
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 03:53:38 AM »
I'm just a ol' dummy here, but I can't find anything under 27 CFR Part 55 Commerce in Explosives, that says a re-enactor can't "share the expense of" a can of powder, unless the person receiving the powder is a whacko, pervert or other fine citizen type.   ;D

18 U.S.C. Sec. 845 (a)(5) goes on to exclude Federal Regulation of quantities of  BP less then 50 lbs, unless the receivor is; a whacko, criminal, under age or just otherwise can't sit up straight. :P

Teach

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Re: Moles
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 05:21:59 AM »
I'm just a ol' dummy here, but I can't find anything under 27 CFR Part 55 Commerce in Explosives, that says a re-enactor can't "share the expense of" a can of powder, unless the person receiving the powder is a whacko, pervert or other fine citizen type.   ;D

18 U.S.C. Sec. 845 (a)(5) goes on to exclude Federal Regulation of quantities of  BP less then 50 lbs, unless the receivor is; a whacko, criminal, under age or just otherwise can't sit up straight. :P
OR Canadian, aliens are prohibited from having blackpowder while in the US.
Good job I didn't do any shooting at the 3 Rondys I was at in Wash. this summer.

roundball

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Re: Moles
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 05:33:42 AM »
The ATF makes it clear...see item #47 at the website:

http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/2007edition/q_and_a.pdf

Offline Dale Halterman

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Re: Moles
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 02:02:15 PM »
RB, That refers to anyone who "engages in the business" of selling black powder. Do they consider it "engaging in the business" to sell some one a can at cost?

Dale H

William Worth

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Re: Moles
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 03:45:18 PM »
Let's, "bell the cat".

I suggest that we nominate someone amoung us to ask ATF;

1) If the aforsaid transaction is, or would be, lawful. 

2) Are they in fact conducting sting operations as described.

don getz

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Re: Moles
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 04:15:46 PM »
While I am not familiar with this law, I would think that the intent of the law would be to regulate the sale of black powder by an individual, if he was in business to do so.  I don't think they would regulate individuals from selling a can of
powder to a friend, afterall, I can sell a long gun to anyone without going thru the instacheck system..legally....Don

ottawa

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Re: Moles
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 04:24:31 PM »
the regs differ but the main thing is if theyr out to nail some one for selling bp then its up to the individuals doing the nailin interpatation of illigal bp sales so just play it safe it's a sad thing when we get hit hard for helpin out ppl in our feild.
remember the days when there was no age limit on the purches of the old style kit guns you could get at Kmarts and the likes

roundball

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Re: Moles
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2008, 02:03:18 AM »
RB, That refers to anyone who "engages in the business" of selling black powder. Do they consider it "engaging in the business" to sell some one a can at cost?

Dale H
I'm not an authority on it...that's why I went to the AFT site.

I found that particular statement #47...and while I can't say I read every other word on the site, I didn't easily run across any other statement to the contrary...so it continues to be an ambiguous situation that causes us to speculate.

It terms of common sense, I should be able to sell a can of powder to a friend for no proft as an incidental sale...but I have no confidence that "the Feds"...particularly with respect to "explosives" in this day and age would have the same common sense approach.  They do really need to make a clear statement flat out...but we'll probably never see that.

Possibly an easier way would be to simply call our respectiuve state fire marshall's offices and ask them...they're "supposed" to be very knowledgable of the ATF regs...but somehow I doubt they are...if we asked 50 state fire marshall's we'd probably get 40 different answers...and then it still wouldn't be in writing.

Offline Buffaload

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Re: Moles
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 04:53:01 PM »
Well, whatever you find out from the ATF, you better get it in writing my friend, with a name and date on it!  Much like the irs, everytime you call you get a different answer.
Ed

Offline kentucky bucky

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Re: Moles
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2008, 09:15:04 PM »
All it takes is one "super trooper" trying to pad his resume ,and even if he's wrong, you will go to jail and it will be up to you to and your wallet (Atty) to come up with the proof that you're innocent. CYOAF/ Cover Your Own A$$ First!
In other words: Watch what you do, It's up to you.

William Worth

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Re: Moles
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2008, 09:50:11 PM »
Here's a suggestion.  If you help someone out with some powder and you don't want to just give it away, barter.

I can imagine the scene in the court room when it comes out that you traded a pound of powder for a chicken or a hand full of flints. ;D

I think the judge would decide that he has more pressing things to do.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Moles
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2008, 03:39:56 AM »
While I am not familiar with this law, I would think that the intent of the law would be to regulate the sale of black powder by an individual, if he was in business to do so.  I don't think they would regulate individuals from selling a can of
powder to a friend, afterall, I can sell a long gun to anyone without going thru the instacheck system..legally....Don

But its not a gun, its an explosive.
If the law says you gotta have a license to sell explosives you better have one if you sell any.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Scott Bumpus

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Re: Moles
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2008, 06:14:03 AM »
I would think this  to not be a big problem.  Most people are there with a club or freinds and know the person they were giving or getting powder from.  I remember the first shoot I went to back in 1982 or so, I had no idea what to expect and did not take enough powder with me.  I was about 3/4 way through the offhand match at owl hollow and ran out.  I did not know a sole there but when I started to gather up my things the shooter next to me asked why I was quiting ( he had seen me post a target and not shoot it). When i told him, he took my powder can and walked down the line to several shooters and came back with about a half pound. What a great bunch of people there are in this sport!!!
YOU CAN ONLY BE LOST IF YOU GIVE A @!*% WHERE THE $#*! YOU ARE!!

Offline Tom Cooper

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Re: Moles
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2008, 02:18:36 AM »
Not sure if this is pertinant to this particular forum but it is an issue for all of those that persue this hobby.

I just recieved this today in e-mail from a member working out of state and am not sure of his sources, but I do believe the threat to be real.

" I just got some disturbing news from a fairly reliable source, that the BATF is sending out undercover agents (again) to various re-inactment events like ours and Civil War etc. and setting people up with lines like "hey buddy I ran out of powder can I buy some from ya?" Well there is a felony conviction, jail time, and a $10,000 fine not to mention confiscation"

According to information posted to another board, you must have a liscense to sell powder, yes even 1 pound.
Tom

The best way I know of to ruin a perfectly plain longrifle is to carve and engrave it

Harnic

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Re: Moles
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2008, 07:05:18 AM »
I guess the moral of this story is: Before you sell that can of powder, make sure that pistol in your belt is loaded!  ;)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 07:08:09 AM by Harnic »

Offline Don Steele

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Re: Moles
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2008, 12:59:19 PM »
Maybe it's just me fellas, but I agree with the earlier post. If I'm at a shoot and a man needs powder...heck I'm going to just give him some to get him through.
What we need to be seriously concerned about is our future...where ANY transfer...free or not will be determined to be illegal unless done "on the books" by individuals holding a bunch of expensive licenses.
Just my 2 cents....
Don
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Offline Tom Cooper

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Re: Moles
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2008, 03:36:48 PM »
I am thinking that the barter system was actually far better than the cash flow system we are currently using, It would seem that the collective group of law makers are way out of control and we could see some real dark times ahead.
Tom

The best way I know of to ruin a perfectly plain longrifle is to carve and engrave it