canvas possibles bag?

[burningprince]

        not too familiar with accoutrement  history.was just wondering if canvas is a historic material?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I can't think why they would not have used canvas and course linen to make pouches.  TC Albert had a great article in Muzzleloader magazine a few months back, and I went to town and made myself a haversack, that I cannot now be without, and a ball bag, designated for my Penn Fowler/smoothbore.  They work splendidly.

[westerner]

My dad always used a white canvas haversack instead of a leather pouch when hunting. Very similar to a leather shooting bag.

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haversack


        Joe.

[James Rogers]

       not too familiar with accoutrement  history.was just wondering if canvas is a historic material?

Are you talking about a shooting bag for carrying rifle shooting/maintaining or a possibles bag which is a 19th century western term if I am not mistaken for a bag that carries other stuff. I am not too familiar with the possibles bag proper.
Depending on what time frame you are inquiring about but linen canvas is probably more appropriate. Canvas is the style of material and can be made of various fibers.
A haversack is a military ration bag. A more appropriate civilian implement if you are considering the 18th century time frame would be a market wallet.

[burningprince]

           Yea sorry about my terminology. A hunting pouch would be more appropriate. looking to recreate last quarter of 18th century.been building rifles but never researched all the terms involved. thanks for all the comments and help.
      Aaron.

[Randy Hedden]

This does not document civilian use of linen/canvas shot pouches, but:

From Washington's papers, Vol. 2: *To COLONEL HENRY BOUQUET Camp near Fort Cumberland, July 3, 1758.

I have us'd my best endeavours to get my Men equip'd with Powder Horns and Shott Pouches, and have procur'd 330 of the former, and 339 of the latter; besides the Linnen ones, with which we are compleated.

Randy Hedden

[BrownBear]

I can't speak to the historical accuracy, but based on practical experience, I'd sure pay attention to something softer like linen in that quotation, rather than modern cotton canvas.  My hunting partner made a great looking and functional shooting bag from canvas, aged it with strong tea and a good beating to soften it.  Then he took it hunting.

It's now a range bag.  That thing sounded like a brass band popping and snapping and scraping through the brush.  A nice soft fabric that was still thick enough to hold its shape would be dandy, but I'd stay clear of cotton canvas if you hunt dense brush like we do.

[Randy Hedden]

I forgot, not linen/canvas, but still cloth shot pouches.  There are two cloth shot pouches mentioned in the "Runaway" adv's of the 18th century.  One mentions a purple plush shot pouch and the other mentions a blue plush shot pouch. 

Randy Hedden

[The other DWS]

consider a bit of informal fabric history. 

Linen, wool and even some silk fabrics were more common than cotton--even in the (NAmerican) Indian trade lists though calico prints became popular once English and French industry geared up to work with cotton.  Cotton was not widely available untill after the Whitney gin went into wide use and the N American plantation system switched over from indigo, rice and tobacco to cotton, and extensive cotton land became available in the upper south after the Indian "removals"
  Prior to that cotton was a very high priced luxury import from India and when used in the trade was mostly in the context of a government "gift" rather than a commercial trade good. 
 Linen came in a wide range of qualities, textures and finishes and was available to the frontier as a locally made product in its coarser grades.  Linen ranged form coarse burlap/hemp/jute like fabrics to tighter woven sailcoth all the way to nearly transparent cambrics used for fancy shirts and dresses.   Linen because of its long fibres was more durable than the next most common fabric wool.  most of the relatively few fabric finds in archaeological contexts are linen or similar fibre woven fabrics from plants in the flax/nettle family

[T.C.Albert]

FWIW...I dont know what the yield was, or if they ever wove it, but I think I read where the Moravians were planting cotton seeds in N.C. during the 1750s ..
TCA
 

[burningprince]

thank you all for great information.i received 20 yards of cotton canvas from my brother recently and was going to use it for this reason. the quotations you used randy were very informative. The forest i hunt in here in West Virginia can get pretty dense with brush so i might try something else thanks for the info Brownbear.
   

[The other DWS]

TCA  there WAS indeed some early attempts at cotton growing, as you note,  however the difficulty of manually picking the seeds from the boll made it a very expensive fabric due to labor costs----even with slave labor.  there were also problems--(I don't recall the specifics--Its been a long time since I studied the economics of fabric in colonial america)-- between the different long and short "staple" (fibre length) breeds of cotton.

If I remember the specifics correctly,  using hand labor one worker could only clean the seeds from the boll for a few pounds of cotton a day.  Even the first hand cranked mechanical 'gins made it possible to produce hundreds of pounds per day. 

[george kevil]

Here's a few thins that mention canvas and cloth.
George

The Col. Is desired to collect in Virginia as many Powder horns as can be got, all that can be had from Pensilvania shall be ordered... For Shot Pouches, osnabrug [a course, unbleached and cheap linen] will be bought, with thread to make them one yard will make 8 bags.” (Bouquet to Washington June 13, 1758 George Washington papers p 208).


Appendages of the Gun A Treatise on English Shooting; by GEORGE EDIE, Gent. London 1772

"A leather pouch, or small canvas bag, to carry the shot; with a tin, or other meaasure..." p9

October 12, 1775 2d Va orderly book:

“… Each Company is to draw a sufficient Quantity of Dutch or Russia Drilling to provide Each Soldier with a Shott Pouch with a partition in division in the middle to keep buckshot and bullets separate. Each Soldier to make his own sack and Shot Pouch as near one General Size Pattern as possible

[Pete G.]

Don't forget that sailcloth was fairly common all along the eastern seaboard. One could make one heck of a lot of shot pouches from one worn out spanker.

[Kermit]

But be careful--"sailcloth" 1750, as "sailcloth" 2010, covers a lot of territory, and almost NONE of it the same. As I recall some of my college history, the need to manually remove seeds from cotton was large responsible for the early emergence of slavery in The Colonies. The "gin" made cotton farming explode and the price go WAY down.

[The other DWS]

Much if not most of the early sail cloth was coarse linen or fibres of a similar nature. the long strong fibres were required to stand the stresses and wear put on sails.  Cotton "canvas" was a relatively late creation.   I would hazard that most 18th cent and earlier fabric hunting bags, haversack etc were made from a linen or linen-wool blend.

 I suppose you might find one creatively fabricated from more exotic fabrics, like tapestries etc when recycled from damaged goods or "war booty"  but it would be the exception to the rule.

[Randy Hedden]

Much if not most of the early sail cloth was coarse linen or fibres of a similar nature. the long strong fibres were required to stand the stresses and wear put on sails.  Cotton "canvas" was a relatively late creation.   I would hazard that most 18th cent and earlier fabric hunting bags, haversack etc were made from a linen or linen-wool blend.

During the 18th century, sailcloth, Russia sheeting, was a twilled woven material.  Twilled material is produced by a process of weaving in which the weft yarns are worked around two or more warp yarns to produce an effect of parallel diagonal lines or ribs on the material.  (Canvas is woven with the weft yarns going over and under only one warp yarn at a time.)  Sheeting used for ship's sails were generally made from hemp and was "bark tanned" in large tanning vats at most major seaports.  The rope of the time used on ships was also generally made from hemp and was also bark tanned.  Bark tanning of the sailcloth and rope gave them a certain resistance to salt water so they lasted longer.

BTW, a lot of early seed bags were made from twilled hemp material.

Randy Hedden

[dannybb55]

Generally British sails were made of Linen and European sails were Hemp, ( pot is more of a warm weather plant  ) That is why the New York Yacht Club's schooner America won the Cup in 1850 with her flat sewn Cotton sails against the UK yachts baggy Linen sails. Linen stretches a lot and cotton doesn't. The US produced a great deal of cotton and hemp for sail cloth but hemp lasts longer, that is why it is the prefered material for rope. Cotton on the other hand is the best material for caulking.
                                          Danny

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

You can buy hemp cloth easily on the web.  Also varieties of linen.... Cotton canvas would probably be reserved for the upper crust.........

[Jefferson58]

I buy hemp fabric and canvas from http://www.hemptraders.com/ They have a nice selection of hemp linen and canvas in all weights. Some of it has a very old- looking weave.

They will send you several small samples free on request.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

[keweenaw]

Cotton is a new world crop, not known in Europe before 1492.  The day Columbus landed on San Salvador island in the Bahamas, Oct. 12, 1492, he traded the Lucayans for balls of cotton twine which they had spun from cotton they grew.  They used it to make nets, bags and hammocks.  Clothing was apparently optional.  That cotton is a short staple cotton that grows on a perennial shrub and is generally called sea cotton.  I think the annual ,long staple cotton was a product of mesoamerica.  I have on my desk some cotton boles from sea cotton from San Salvador.  Of course on October 13th Columbus, being the nice guy he was, wrote in his diario that the Lucayans were very docile and that it would be easy to enslave them.  In less than 30 years the Spaniards had completely eliminated the native population of the Bahamas.  Ponce de Lion was not looking for Florida when he discovered it.  His mission was a slaving expedition through the Bahamas where he discovered that there was no one left to enslave.  They didn't tell us that in history class.

Tom

[Randy Hedden]

Generally British sails were made of Linen and European sails were Hemp, ( pot is more of a warm weather plant  ) That is why the New York Yacht Club's schooner America won the Cup in 1850 with her flat sewn Cotton sails against the UK yachts baggy Linen sails.
                                          Danny

This bit of information sounds like an urban legend.  Are you sure that the U.S. schooner America didn't win because of better ship design, better tactics by the America's captain and a better trained and dedicated crew?  Oh, and BTW, the Schooner America wasn't even built and launched until 1851 and won the race that was named after it's first winner, America, in 1851.

Randy Hedden

[Artificer]

I forgot, not linen/canvas, but still cloth shot pouches.  There are two cloth shot pouches mentioned in the "Runaway" adv's of the 18th century.  One mentions a purple plush shot pouch and the other mentions a blue plush shot pouch. 

Randy Hedden

Ah HAH !  Perhaps some evidence someone was color coordinating their pouch to the rest of their outfit or coat?   Never thought anyone would accessorize their shooting outfit.  This may be a real historic break through on fashion !!

OK, just kidding.  Grin. 

I wonder if the word "plush" meant a type of material or the nap/softness of it. 

Gus Fisher

[Randy Hedden]

I wonder if the word "plush" meant a type of material or the nap/softness of it. 

Gus Fisher

I believe plush is the same, or at least very similar, as the material we call velvet today. 

Randy Hedden

[keweenaw]

You guys haven't checked the ebay ads for shot pouches.  Blue velvet would be appropriate.

Tom