Two charges 3 ranges?

[northmn]

When I used to shoot matches I used two charges for the bullseye and other similar events.  One reason was that that was what the winning shooters were doing.  A few held off about using one charge (the most accurate) at all ranges but held over at 100 yards.  While their arguments sounded convincing they were not generally the winners. Personally I think it boils down to the 6 o'clock discussion. The targets, especially at 100 yards varied so much you were better to be able to hold dead on or a little high than try a special hold.   One charge seemed to work well at 25 and 50 yards and then we upped it for 100 yards. Another thing is that personally, unless it was a very fussy rifle the accuracy difference was less than what the shooter could hold. The 100 yard load was generally the "deer" load.

DP

[Daryl]

I admit to using 2 different charges in my 14 bore.  The plinking load, 82gr. is zero'd for 25 and 50 yards and a 125gr. charge is zero'd for 100 - both using the same sight and sight picture - dead-on hold in the middle.  Another reason for the heavyier charge at 100 is that 82gr. is much less accurate at that range, but usable to 80 yards with 1 1/2" to 2" groups.  Shooting the much more accurate 125gr. charge is a bit wearing on the body and expensive in powder as well.

[Wyoming Mike]

I shoot a lot of competition through the year.  I use two loads for a couple of reasons.  The main on is I'm a terrible judge finding the right elevation to hold for longer shots.  I sight in, and work up the loads for my rifles at 50 yards.  I then up the charge until I'm hitting with same POA at 100 yards.  Generally this is between 10 to 25 grains more than the target load.  This is also my hunting load for the rifle.

The other reason is that I don't like being beat up with recoil in a day's shooting.  Typically on a three day shoot I will easily shoot 50 rounds a day.  It's a lot easier on my old body if 3/4 of the loads are the lighter target loads. 

[Roger Fisher]

I shoot a lot of competition through the year.  I use two loads for a couple of reasons.  The main on is I'm a terrible judge finding the right elevation to hold for longer shots.  I sight in, and work up the loads for my rifles at 50 yards.  I then up the charge until I'm hitting with same POA at 100 yards.  Generally this is between 10 to 25 grains more than the target load.  This is also my hunting load for the rifle.

The other reason is that I don't like being beat up with recoil in a day's shooting.  Typically on a three day shoot I will easily shoot 50 rounds a day.  It's a lot easier on my old body if 3/4 of the loads are the lighter target loads. 

Well said!   My .45 gets 45 3 f Goex at 25 yds, 62 (don't ask) at 50 yds and 75 at 100.   Works for me (usually)

[Daryl]

My .40 cal rifle shoots lower with each increase in powder charge - go figure.

[northmn]

Interesting that what Roger shoots in his 45 is roughly the same formula I used to shoot, I may have upped to 55 a 50? Just don't remember. The heavier charges are often the most accurate, but at close ranges it really is not that much of a difference. That was one of the reasons also I was going back to the 45 for targets. The smaller bores like the 40 did not adjust as well to two charges.

DP

[Darkhorse]

Can't figure that Daryl? My .40 shoots markedly higher with a 5 to 10 grain increase. I could actually use 3 loads to shoot this rifle 25, 50 and 100.
When I was shooting matches years ago I shot a .54 (all a poor newlywed could afford) and 2 loads worked great as it seems (now) less sensitive to small powder increases.

[SCLoyalist]

My .40 cal rifle shoots lower with each increase in powder charge - go figure.

One theory I've seen for such a phenomenon is that higher powder charge (and higher velocity) results in the ball exiting the bore in less time, which gives the recoil less time to raise the muzzle (i.e. the ball's angle of departure with respect to the ground is less with a larger charge than a lower one).  If that were a universal truth, though, then everybody would see the same thing, so I'm guessing that there are other factors like weight of the gun, shooter's grip & stance, and stock drop at play.

Like a lot of folks, I use two charges, one for 25 & 50 yds, and a slightly stiffer charge for 100 yds to try to partially compensate for the extra drop (bullet drop at 100 yds will be more than four times the drop at 50 yds).   After looking a lot at the Lyman BP Handbook tables for drop and bullet path,  and playing a lot with ballistics spreadsheets, the best I can do is a load for 25 & 50 yards that allows the same sight picture on the bull, and the higher charge for 100 yds where I hold about 3 inches higher.

[Frizzen]

And I thought I was the only one who had the more powder shooting lower thing. I noticed
35 years ago that 90 grs shot about 6 inches lower at 100 yds, than 55 in my old 58 Zouave
Musket.

[ehoff]

I'm a three charger also, my .45 likes 45 grains of 3F Goex at 25, 55 grains at 50 and 70 grains at 100.

[Jerry V Lape]

Yep, the heavier charges are causing the ball to exit the muzzle at an earlier time in the flinch!   

[Daryl]

Jerry might be right. However, slow moving centrefire slugs exhibit the same, more powder, lower impact deal, same as handguns, which are even more recoil induced as to impact.
The .40 is the only right to do that, however - all the rest shoot higher with more powder. It's an annomoly as far as round ball guns go.

[Jerry V Lape]

Wonder if this lower impact is an harmonic?  If so it might be possible to go far enough on the charge to have the point of impact begin to rise again. But that could be well outside the useful range of charge increases.  Might also be a variable which the rifle could be tuned to minimize, maybe we will find a real purpose to the flared muzzle on our swamped barrels? 

[Daryl]

Not aware of swamped barrels doing this as Taylor's seem to shoot higher with increased powder. My .40 is a 7/8" straight octagonal @ 36" length. It did the same when it was 42" on another gun.  It was not bedded in glass in the long stock, but is now in the 1/2 stock.  As to recoil induced elevation, well, that just doens't happen with a .40 that I'm aware of.  It's an annomoly for sure.
Even my .69 throws higher with increased powder, yet a .45 or .50 cal. rifle, shooting the same weight as my .69 ball, but in conicals, shoots lower with increased powder.

[satwel]

I have achieved my highest scores using two charges for three ranges. After much trial and error, I use the same charge (which is different for each caliber) for 25 and 50 yards and adjust my hold slightly--6 oclock hold at 25 and center hold for 50. I then up the charge (by about 20%) for 100 yards and use a center hold. Works for all three rifles I use; .45, .50 and .54.

[Dphariss]

My .40 cal rifle shoots lower with each increase in powder charge - go figure.

Suspect less barrel time, less recoil impulse time to effect the gun. Its a trick for getting a SA Colt in 45 (or other large bore fixed sight handgun) to shoot to the sights. Heavier bullet, lower velocity shoots higher. Dropping the bullet weight 25 to 50 grains can bring the pistol to point of aim due to less recoil impulse before the bullet clears the barrel. Also why the 7 1/2" barrel has a much higher front sight from the factory, longer barrel time, revolver rotates more before the bullet exits.
Its less noticeable in RB guns but its still valid in some cases.

Dan

[Daryl]

My .40 is an annomoloy asfar as muzzleloading guns go. one of the others share this trait, as noted.

Neil's .40 (actually his wife's .40) shoots higher with more or less than his accuracy load - figure that one out.

In other to solve the various charges, various ranges deal, I zero at 25 which gives a zero at 50 - same charge- that which is most accurate at 50 and beyond. This is a descent charge, so the ball drops perhaps 2 1/2" to 3" at 100 meters - something like that - ranging problems of ranging solved.

[northmn]

As the old saying goes, stuff happens.  As a general rule about every rifle I have used shot higher with a heavier charge. Probably sold any that did not.  One of the reasons I started to switch back to a 45 was because the performance gain in increases in small bores did not seem to match that of medium bores.  In other words 32's to be competitive Had to be loaded to about 25 grains min or like you mentioned even hotter.  To go up beyond that level does not give a very large gain.  I noticed that in my 40 in that it needed about 40/45 grains of 3f to shoot well even at 25 yards.  That is already about equivalent to 60 grains in a 45 as far as ball weight/powder weight.  You are at the point of diminishing returns when you stat getting at anything over 1/2 powder to ball weight.  On the flip side some big bore started to hurt at 100 yards.

DP

[Daryl]

What powder charge shoots well depends a lot on the lube used as well.  If a very slippery lube like Hoppe's 9 Plus or LehighValley is used, the .40 demands 65gr. of 3F or 75gr. of 2f.  When using spit or a windhshield washer/soap mix, a mere 55gr. of 3F suffices.  50 shoots OK, and so does 60, however 55 is the cat's pajamas with this rifle.  Interestngly enough, the same charge, ie: 55gr. shoots identically in 2f - which is strange.
My .45 GM barrel demanded more powder - 75gr. of 3f and 85gr. of 2f when using the slippery lubes and 70/80 when using wet lubes.
In order to get to know your rifle, you've got to shoot it a lot.
Both these rifles will put 5 into a 25 yard bull off the bags, that can be covered with a dime - as will the .32, if 35gr. is used.  It will shoot a quarter sized group with any other charge down to 25gr., but that charge blow the groups farther out than 25 yards.
The .58's and .69 really don't care how much powder is or is not used for shooting 25 yards.  50 yards and beyond, though, demands a descent charge- no pipsheak charges will group well at 50 or farther.

[Roger Fisher]

What powder charge shoots well depends a lot on the lube used as well.  If a very slippery lube like Hoppe's 9 Plus or LehighValley is used, the .40 demands 65gr. of 3F or 75gr. of 2f.  When using spit or a windhshield washer/soap mix, a mere 55gr. of 3F suffices.  50 shoots OK, and so does 60, however 55 is the cat's pajamas with this rifle.  Interestngly enough, the same charge, ie: 55gr. shoots identically in 2f - which is strange.
My .45 GM barrel demanded more powder - 75gr. of 3f and 85gr. of 2f when using the slippery lubes and 70/80 when using wet lubes.
In order to get to know your rifle, you've got to shoot it a lot.
Both these rifles will put 5 into a 25 yard bull off the bags, that can be covered with a dime - as will the .32, if 35gr. is used.  It will shoot a quarter sized group with any other charge down to 25gr., but that charge blow the groups farther out than 25 yards.
The .58's and .69 really don't care how much powder is or is not used for shooting 25 yards.  50 yards and beyond, though, demands a descent charge- no pipsheak charges will group well at 50 or farther.

Happy to note that I'm not the only guy that knows there is such a thing as a tooooo slick bore

[northmn]

Daryl, I noticed the differences you mention about big bores.  My 54 does fine with about 70 grains of 3f up close and at 50 yards and shoots it pretty fair.  At 100 yards I go up to about 100-110.  58 I ahd was the same way it shot 70 of 3f very well and then would not do for anything until you went to 110 grains and straightened out again.

DP

[Daryl]

I've had three .58's so far, that would not shoot a descent 2" group at 100 yards with less than 140gr. 2F.  I know have 2 more for testing this.

I find much better consistancy when shooting off the bags, if I hold the rifle hard, btw.  It more closely emulates my method of off hand shooting in the field and so point of impact is virtually identical as well.  Letting the rifle bounce on the bags will not lend good results with low velocity guns, normally.

[northmn]

I had a Green River barrel like that.  The 110 grains in that old Numrich 58 was 3f so it likely was close.  that old cannon had a 1 1/8 inch barrel and I used it when I could hold things like that up. 

DP

[Daryl]

One of my 140gr. eaters was a Numrich .58 Underhammer, 1 1/8" and another was a Zouave with 72" twist.  The Large, barrel 1 1/8" X 34" with 66" twist and .012" rifling was pretty well a no-question deal. Interestingly enough, it also shot well with a 480gr. modified Old Style 460gr. minnie (thickened the skirt) - also with 140gr. That one kicked a bit, but not as much as the 610gr. thick skirt - same powder charge.  I decided I didn't like narrow Hawken butt plates at that time.

[ironwolf]

  O.K. I confess.  I do bump it up to the "deer" load for the 100 yard target.   The biggest aggravation I've encountered with this method  is the carbon ring on those really dry days.  I say this because I generally shoot the long shot first after about 5 or 6 foulers.  I'd really rather not clean between  relays, but I shot a 183 of a possible 250 last outing this way.
  My personal best score to date.

  Kevin