Author Topic: Antique finish secrets  (Read 19642 times)

Offline fm tim

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Antique finish secrets
« on: August 31, 2008, 04:38:06 PM »
Is anyone willing to divulge their secrets for getting an antiqued patina on iron parts like lockplates, and on brass parts - esp patch boxes?

Offline t.caster

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2008, 05:10:09 PM »
There's not much secret about it. It's all out there! Search the archives and recent posts for "patina" or "antique finish" or "aging" , whatever. There has been volumes written about different techniques used by a large variety of builders!
Happy journey!
Tom C.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 05:56:30 PM »
Tim,
There's no secret and there are many ways to antique metal parts.  Here's one and I'm sure someone else will share theirs.
1) Sand and file your parts down to about a 220 wet/dry finish.  You want a little grip to help the rust grab. 
2) Rub all the parts down with Birchwood Casey's Super Blue. 
3) Submerge in Clorox or I use a small spray bottle and mist the parts.  This will result in a rather quick (especially if submerged) and aggressive rusting. 
4) Once it has rusted to a point past when you would normally card fro a nice rust brown, then start scrubbing it all off.  I use a 3M green scrub pad. 
5) You should have a nice Grey, brown finish with some pitting.
6)If you want more of an old look, repeat the process.  If it is too shiny, then reapply the bluing solution and rub back again. 
Cheers,
Ken
P.S.  Oh, the fumes are bad.  Well circulated room or outside.  I'm doing parts now and they are on the back deck.
K
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 05:58:12 PM by Ken Guy »
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Offline B Shipman

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 07:44:18 AM »
Allen Martin method;

Brown 8-12 days. Sand with 100 grit paper then scotch bright pad. Apply Brownell's 44-40 and rub off with scotchbright pad and oil.  Gives the appearance of an old original in fine condition.

My method:

Brown for about three days. Rub the corners shiny. Take some off in general with 400 paper and 4-0 steel wool leaving more around sights and at the edge of the wood. Takes the new look off a new rifle. Mellow new.

Ken's method is basically the Hershall House method. The instant gun blue oddly enough accelerates the work of the bleach. On a lock, just put the blue where you want the pitting to most occur and spray with bleach for instance. Gives the appearance of a greasy  old  well used rifle.

Everything is a variation of these.

long carabine

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2008, 01:22:09 PM »
 I heard of using Naval Jelly being used. I have never tried it though. Tim

northmn

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2008, 01:45:55 PM »
Ken the fumes would likely be bad.  I suspect bluing and browning solutions are acids.  Its a big no-no to mix chlorine and acid as the fumes are toxic.  Doing so outside is about the only way to go.

DP

Offline fm tim

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2008, 04:21:48 PM »
Thank you all.

Offline JTR

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2008, 01:38:04 AM »
To age brass, you can just use some brass darkening solution or liver of sulfur, which is pretty ho-hum, but gets the job done.
Or you can have some fun and get it done too, by smoking the part in black powder smoke.

To do small parts, you’ll need a;
5 gallon bucket.
A wire to suspend the parts inside the bucket.
Some clear cling wrap to cover the top of the bucket. Have this unrolled and ready cause you need to cover the bucket quickly.
A long stick with a match taped to the end. Those long wooden barbecue matches work well if you tape two or three of them together.
A Big Devilish Grin, and some black powder.

So, with parts on hand, locate your bucket in a convenient location,,, although this should not be inside the house as the smoke stinks up the furniture something terrible.
Cut a piece of wire and bend the ends so it sits across the center of the bucket, then bend some short pieces for hangers, and hang your brass parts down into the bucket.
Next, put your charge of black powder in a pile in the center of the bottom of the bucket. . I use 4F, and 15 or 20 grains works well,,, a half ounce makes way too much smoke!

Now you’re about ready, so lock up the dog and get the kids back out of the way.

Being sure you have your cling wrap close at hand, light the match and gingerly lower it into the bucket toward the pile of powder. Full face mask, safety glasses and gloves are recommended, but gritting your teeth, turning your head and closing your eyes are an option.
Poke the flame into the powder.

You will more or less immediately hear a big Whhooosh!
In a smooth fluid motion, quickly pull out the match and grab the cling wrap and cover the top of the bucket! You want to trap all the smoke possible.

Depending on the brass, 5 or 10 minutes will turn it a mustard color, 10 to 15 minutes a brownish yellow, and longer will eventually turn it black.

When the parts get to the color you want, take them out and rinse them in water, then dry them. Rubbing them with a cloth will highlight the edges.

John
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 01:40:10 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Buffler Razz

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2008, 03:53:52 AM »
JTR,
All I have to say is thank god there was not the internet when I was a kid! I'm compelled to give it a go on some scrap pieces I have laying around, just for kicks!
Thanks
Razz

ironwolf

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008, 05:51:18 AM »
  You can also cold blue your iron parts, then coat liberally with household "iodine".  Assemble the gun and rub off the gunk from the high spots.
  Fast, easy and clean. No fumes and doesn't keep attacking the metal.

  The Mark Elliot method.

  Kevin W.

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008, 07:08:07 AM »
Ken the fumes would likely be bad.  I suspect bluing and browning solutions are acids.  Its a big no-no to mix chlorine and acid as the fumes are toxic.  Doing so outside is about the only way to go.

DP

Since I told Ken about the method I feel should my two cents - using the BC Super Blue (which is a mix of several acids in small quantities - it's 83% water per the MSDS) and bleach the only fumes I notice are those of the bleach, which are admittedly obnoxious and toxic in themselves, but so are most browning/bluing compounds with just their acids (HH heats/heated his bleach which is REALLY obnoxious!) .
Anyway I have had no adverse effects from using the method now for over 15 years and I use it almost daily - of course when using any chemical I use GOOD ventilation (exhaust hood and cross ventilation in the shop or do it outdoors) and also use proper safety precautions - chemical safety approved goggles, gloves, apron, and mask. I also get myself tested regularly since I have a bum liver becuase of too many years breathing/using toxic thinners such as Toluene while being a pro cabinet maker and leather smith......

FWIW - chlorine when mixed with iron forms ferric chloride which when added to water (chlorine bleach is only about 3% chlorine, the rest is water) this in turn creates hydrochloric acid - so in this case one is in effect mixing an acid with an acid......this info is from a full-time professional chemist who in turn noted that it is the selenium (in the form of selenious acid) in the BC Super Blue which acts as the accelerant (I consult him since I really don't want to do anything stupid...I prefer not to show up on the yearly Darwin Award  ;) )

One can also just use ferric chloride or diluted muriatic - aka hyrochloric - acid (just hang the part in a sealed container with a bit of muriatic and let it fume), but both are much slower and still require proper safety equipment....

Another option - iodine and salt...

When using the bleach method you can also mask parts (such as the inside of the lock plate) off with a clear finish such as lacquer then remove the finish later. Or on such as a barrel where you might want more wear in some places and not others - apply blue and then wrap only those sections you want aged/pitted with a rag soaked in bleach....The bleach/cold blue method is aggressive and usually fast so use caution - it can be repeated if need be....

FWFW - You can get varied looks dependent on the steel, the newness of the bleach (used bleach is less strong), and the time factor ......
all three blades are 5160 steel (HC alloyed with chrome)  - the one on the left was soaked for 20 minutes, the center one 5 minutes, the right one 8 minutes


THis blade is of simple 1065 HC steel..A ten minute soak followed by a cleanup and then another 5 minute soak....

« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 07:23:38 AM by ChuckBurrows »
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Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008, 03:32:21 PM »
For brass I do what JT does except I use a cardboard box. Put the part in it with some black powder. Close the box and punch a hole in it. Drop a match in the hole to light the powder and let the part sit over night. Oh yea, too much power and the box will come apart........
Robert Wolfe
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Offline Ken G

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2008, 03:46:37 PM »
Chuck,
I have noticed a very big difference between new bleach and old bleach.  Surprising how fast it loses it's uumph. 
Cheers,
Ken
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bigsky

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2008, 03:43:44 AM »
There's not much secret about it. It's all out there! Search the archives and recent posts for "patina" or "antique finish" or "aging" , whatever. There has been volumes written about different techniques used by a large variety of builders!
Happy journey!

Tom,
I read your reply and saw that you recommended searching the archives.  I know this topic was covered quite a bit in the past, both for metal and wood.  Are the archives up now?  I have not been able to find them.
Thanks
Kevin

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2008, 04:15:10 AM »
Let us not forget that famous Brooks family secret, Flat Black Rustoleum, rubbed back with triple or four ought steel wool. ;D :D ;D :D.  Wonder if Cecil taught Mike that.

Bill
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2008, 07:57:48 PM »
Anybody have an objection if I move this over to the tutorial section?I know you guys will be looking for this post later on, and saying where the heck did it go?

I will edit it to slim it down some, but this has some great info.


It's not a bad idea to copy stuff that you really like onto your own hard drive if you have the room. For this I make a folder titled "metal treatments" or something. I keep "rust blue" and "etching Damascus steel" in this folder.

Tom
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2008, 08:23:16 PM »
Ken the fumes would likely be bad.  I suspect bluing and browning solutions are acids.  Its a big no-no to mix chlorine and acid as the fumes are toxic.  Doing so outside is about the only way to go.

DP
Agree
I would simply not mix acid and bleach at all no matter what special effect I wanted. Its not as bad as acid in the cyanide bath but its just silly.
It hasn't killed me, so far, is not a justification.
Dan
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Offline JTR

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2008, 11:38:47 PM »
Regarding my post, lighting off black powder is serious business, and all safety precautions should be taken! Not only is there smoke, but flame and tiny bits of burning powder, so be Careful!

Once you had the big Whhoosh and smoked your parts, you find a fine white residue coating the inside of the bucket. This residue can also be applied to your parts with a finger or small brush to age brass, or further darken areas that have been smoked, as well.

John

 
John Robbins

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2008, 11:51:48 PM »
For more correct info on obtaining different patina's on stuff.  Check out this site
www.artchemicals.com  check out the FAQ, and patinas
I've got a couple more sites I'll look up and post later.  Hope this helps

Bill
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 11:55:13 PM by Bill Knapp »
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2008, 12:16:40 AM »
Quote
Tom,
I read your reply and saw that you recommended searching the archives.  I know this topic was covered quite a bit in the past, both for metal and wood.  Are the archives up now?  I have not been able to find them.
Thanks
Kevin
Kevin,
The old board archives are not up yet but hopefully soon. Close Enough has been working on a program to convert the data from the old Acess data to MySQL data and its been quite a bit of work. He has the conversion program finished and tried to load some data recently and kept getting errors. He thinks he might have it worked out and will try to upload the data again later. There is so much data to convert and load that it can't be done in a short session. Needs to have plenty of time available to try it again. Its much closer than it has been!
Dennis
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Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2008, 02:57:31 AM »
I would simply not mix acid and bleach at all no matter what special effect I wanted. Its not as bad as acid in the cyanide bath but its just silly.
It hasn't killed me, so far, is not a justification.
Dan

The point is this particular low volume mix is no more toxic than many other items we use such as Nitric Acid, the common browning/bluing solutions, Muriatic, et al. Actually I generally let the blue dry first so most of the acid has off gassed.
Of course one should use proper precautions to be safe as possible and know the consequences if you don't. 

With respect by your logic - Dan none of those others should be used either???

FWIW - most toilet cleaners contain hydrochloric acid, yet are safely used in millions of homes with chlorinated water everyday. Yep mixing straight bleach and toilet cleaner ain't smart (been there done that), but that is a much higher mix than used above.....

« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 03:12:21 AM by ChuckBurrows »
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2008, 05:13:06 AM »
I would simply not mix acid and bleach at all no matter what special effect I wanted. Its not as bad as acid in the cyanide bath but its just silly.
It hasn't killed me, so far, is not a justification.
Dan

The point is this particular low volume mix is no more toxic than many other items we use such as Nitric Acid, the common browning/bluing solutions, Muriatic, et al. Actually I generally let the blue dry first so most of the acid has off gassed.
Of course one should use proper precautions to be safe as possible and know the consequences if you don't. 

With respect by your logic - Dan none of those others should be used either???

FWIW - most toilet cleaners contain hydrochloric acid, yet are safely used in millions of homes with chlorinated water everyday. Yep mixing straight bleach and toilet cleaner ain't smart (been there done that), but that is a much higher mix than used above.....



There are some things that are largely unavoidable. Hot steel from the forge. The stuff that comes off dilute nitric acid when iron is added is pretty ugly stuff to see and its deadly. Just the fumes are bad without adding the iron. But its tough to make traditional AF without doing this.
I think I can probably rust a piece of steel without mixing acid and chlorine. Thus its not a necessary so why do it? The problem is the idiot factor when you tell people to do stuff you have to assume they will screw it ups and poison themselves. I mentioned cyanide because I used to work in a plant that used this for case hardening.
If someone wants something antiqued dip it in fairly strong nitric (dangerous again). It will etch steel and make it look like it has 100 or 200 years of corrosion in nothing flat then it can be colored. Or just brush on strong nitric it will etch metal to beat the band (dangerous). But its very  dangerous and unnecessary.
Aside from game playing and faking there is no real reason to antique new made guns, tinware or other articles.
I know of a family that was ripped off with a rifle I made as a teenager that was later somewhat aged, not all that much really, either from actual use or nefariously. "Rifle found in an old cabin in Kentucky etc etc". Two antique dealers told them it was rev war era. A gunsmith finally told them it was modern production, he put me in contact with the current owners.
But it has my name on it and I don't like it much...
Knowing what I know from things that occurred in the 1960s and right up to current times (skilled people with original Hawken shop stamps for example) I get uneasy about "antiquing" stuff.
I should be in the shop casting round balls.

Dan
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Offline Scott Bumpus

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2008, 06:44:23 AM »
I hope this "aging" fad is one that will soon pass!
YOU CAN ONLY BE LOST IF YOU GIVE A @!*% WHERE THE $#*! YOU ARE!!

ironwolf

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2008, 12:16:47 PM »
  I'm gonna try the Brook's 'patina' as soon as I grow the right size Kahona's

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Antique finish secrets
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2008, 03:51:10 PM »
A few weeks in my shop seems to age my stuff, without going to the trouble of working at the aging thing. They seem to be aged by the time their finished. If I want a gun to look brand new, I have to go over all the parts again and polish just prior to final assembly. Even the stock seems to pick up a layer of filth by the time its done!