Tooled Early VA Pouch

[Mark Elliott]

I had this pouch at the Southern Longrifle Show and a number of people commented on it.  That is not to say they were necessarily good comments   I don't believe that I ever posted it here, so here goes.   I took a bit of artistic license in the tooling, but I like it and I don't think it is out of character at all.   Now, I just need to make an banded early VA horn to go with it.   It will be hung from the strap with stitched on leather hangers, or should I try buttons like Jeff used on one of his recent horns?   The last horn I made and posted here, was just too small for an early horn and was the wrong carry side for me.   

Mark E.

[Kermit]

Keep it up with the "artistic license." I like it! Very nice addition to an otherwise very simple pouch.

[smshea]

That's beautiful!

[Jefferson58]

Nice pouch Mark. You had some nice pieces at the show.

How about buckled horn hangers? They were around in Revolutionary times. I think they would look good on an early pouch like this.

Just a thought.

Jeff

[LRB]

  Excellent!! I really like that. Nicest bag I've seen in a good while.

[Tim Crosby]

 Very nice bag, I like the way it is finished.

 Tim C.

 PS: Looks even better in person.TC

[Mark Elliott]

Jeff,

I don't think I have ever seen a buckled horn hanger.   Do you have any pictures?


Mark E.

[Jefferson58]

Mark:

Take a look at Bob Albrecht's pouch and horn on Contemporary Makers. Besides being an absolutely beautiful set, it has nice buckled horn hanger straps.

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/04/robert-albrecht-bag-and-horn.html

My understanding is that this method was used during the Revolution. It allowed one to remove their horn from the pouch to give it to the Supply Sargent for refilling.

T.C.  Albert also details making them in his hunting pouch book.

Hope this helps,

Jeff

[David Rase]

I think this is what Jeff is talking about.  This is my pouch and horn for my American musket.  It has a detachable powderhorn using buckles.
DMR

[flintriflesmith]

...My understanding is that this method was used during the Revolution. It allowed one to remove their horn from the pouch to give it to the Supply Sargent for refilling. ...
Jeff

Jeff,
Maybe this should be a new thread.

I have been searching for quite some time for any period documentation of soldiers removing their horns and turning them over to someone to be filled. After considerable discussion on FrontierFolk no one could come up with any such evidence.

Do you know of anything that is actually documented?
Gary

[James Rogers]

That one looks somewhat like an original pictured in Tim Albert's book and given a date range of 1770-1800. He does not give any specifics as to provenance though. Would like to know more about it's origin because it's my favorite of the originals he pictured.

It's hard to find early pouches that can have solid proof dates.

I am not familiar with any rev war pouch with attached horn straps/buckles that has solid enough provenance. The current trend seems to put the horn on a separate strap for 18th century.

[Mark Elliott]

I think that I am going to just sew my hangers to the strap.   Buckles just don't look right to me on such an early, simple pouch.

Mark E.
 

[Jefferson58]

Gary:

Roland Cadle had the information about the buckled horn hangers. I will try to get some more information from him.

At a meeting last summer, we talked at length about the whole thing.

Jeff

[Randy Hedden]

Jeff,

If this was the same meeting that I attended, I remember that Roland said he had documentation of the horns hooked to shot pouch by buckled straps.  Roland even shows such a bag with buckled horn straps as an example of F&I War military issue shot pouches. 

Randy Hedden

[James Rogers]

Jeff,

If this was the same meeting that I attended, I remember that Roland said he had documentation of the horns hooked to shot pouch by buckled straps.  Roland even shows such a bag with buckled horn straps as an example of F&I War military issue shot pouches. 

Randy Hedden

This is very exciting news. I believe this may be the same meeting Tim Albert said included discussion on rings used on 18th century pouches? . Looking forward to the documentation.

[smshea]

 Did I mention how much I like this Pouch! I just keep coming back to it!

 Generally I'm not into square bags or bags sewn on the outside(Based on nothing except personal preference) but this.....sings! I really love it. 

[David Rase]

Did I mention how much I like this Pouch! I just keep coming back to it!

 Generally I'm not into square bags or bags sewn on the outside(Based on nothing except personal preference) but this.....sings! I really love it. 

I could not agree with you more Scott.  I don't know if it is the tooling, the leather or what, but Mark did pull off an incredible pouch.
DMR

[Mark Elliott]

Guys,

If you like it that much, I can certainly make you one for a price.

Mark E.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Mark, I like your new bag and I think sometimes sewing on the outsided fits the look.  I'm sure more original bags were 'flatsewn' at one time.  Anyway, good job and if you want to attach your horn to the straps without buckles, go for it.  With or without buckles is strictly personal preference, like wearing it on the left or right.  I can't see why either method is wrong. 
Gary

[T.C.Albert]

I have seen quite a few old bags with "flat stitched " seams..both bound, and unbound...some done this way are pretty plain and though charming, are border line crude...but the majority are finished very neatly.

At 7 stitches per inch, which seems to be a good average used in the old bags, it can take about 500 stitches to make a standard double bag with a bound flap edges...and flat sewn they will all show...that many well done "exposed" stitches are almost a decorative element of the bag...I dont know if it was purely function and design, or if the old makers liked to show how well they stitched ... maybe both?
TCA

[Mark Elliott]

This bag is based on a couple of original early bags, one dated to the F&I War,  and is constructed the same.   There is a center divider that serves as the welt.   The original bags were flat stitched.   I just made it the same.  This bag is for an early VA rifle.   


Mark E.

[T.C.Albert]

It turned out great Mark..the tooling really sets it off and was a perfect addition..
You mention a good point too...from what I have seen, it seems that its generally "divided" bags that are flat sewn...
TCA

[Artificer]

Mark,

The tooling on the bag just sort of "screamed" to me of flat English Checkering and they often had a dimple in the center of each square.  Here's a link to a Ferguson done that way:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HCDLamhDlL4C&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=early+checkering,+gun+stocks&source=bl&ots=kSUksInida&sig=MYh5kC2d5Yu8lN0VloWunH-Lvak&hl=en&ei=Jpq-S6vlHcSAlAeSvtH6Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAg

The way you rounded the bottom corners of the bag with the rounded edge stitching was a very nice touch.  Yeah,  I notice little things like that which shows a more finished look.

Very nice bag.

Gus Fisher

[Artificer]

Jeff,

If this was the same meeting that I attended, I remember that Roland said he had documentation of the horns hooked to shot pouch by buckled straps.  Roland even shows such a bag with buckled horn straps as an example of F&I War military issue shot pouches. 

Randy Hedden

This is very exciting news. I believe this may be the same meeting Tim Albert said included discussion on rings used on 18th century pouches? . Looking forward to the documentation.

I agree, this is exciting news.  I'm really looking forward to it as well, especially as I'm slowly planning a somewhat fancier early pouch myself.  I've come to realize when you get a little long of tooth, it's nice to have good looking things to distract people's attention away from how worn I am.  Grin.

Gus Fisher

[Mark Elliott]

Artificer,

Thanks for noticing the details.   I too, thought it was necessary to round the bottom slightly to finish the bag properly.   I really can't tell if the same was done to the original pouch due to wear and its fragile state. 

As to the diagonal lines,  I am sure I had seen that checkering before, but when I did the bag, I just added the diagonal lines because it seemed to work and I though it was appropriate for the period.   

Mark E.