Author Topic: ITX non-toxic roundball  (Read 7976 times)

Offline axelp

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ITX non-toxic roundball
« on: April 02, 2010, 01:47:10 AM »
www.tomboboutdoors.com

check out the news release section on their website.
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Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2010, 02:35:12 AM »
It sounds like I have a batch of these coming in the mail.  Ken suggested that Steve Chapman and I might be the fellows would ring out these at 100 yds.   If our plans progress, we will use Steve's .50 cross sticks gun (record holder at Friendship) and see what kind of groups we can get. This gun gives us a superb barrel and target sights; besides being a gun that Steve knows very well.  We'll work off a bench, use wind flags, etc.   We'll let you know results.
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Pletch
Regards,
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Offline axelp

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2010, 05:19:58 AM »
I am very interested to know how it all goes with the 100 yard tests. the 25 and 50 yard tests I did were very encouraging to say the least.

Ken
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northmn

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 03:17:56 PM »
I am not against the concept so much as I wonder how large a 2nd mortgage I would have to take out to buy some of them.  If they shoot close to lead it would not be so bad. 

DP

Offline axelp

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2010, 03:54:47 PM »
I think the only place to buy ITX initially will be at www.ballisticproducts.com. BUT I do not think they are 100% out on the market just yet.  It is not listed on their website anyway.

Like Pletch said, testing/development is still being done on ITX, but the prospects seem very hopeful. I am very thankful to the guys who are doing the testing. They are actually guys who frequent this board and they have "no dog in the fight"... so the integrity of the testing will not be in question.

Yes, ITX shot is pretty expensive compared to lead, but it is actually one of the most affordable non-lead shot products out there today from what I read.  I would guess ITX roundball will be priced as low as possible, but it is a bit more of a process to make this stuff than just runnin lead ball by the campfire...

I know that the ITXball will be sold in small quantities--- this is pretty much a hunting option, not a large quantity plinking option. I figure they will be cheaper than a fancy whizbang sabot, but it will be more expensive than lead. That is why it is so important to make sure this product is as close as possibly ballistically speaking, to lead.

As far as the small flat ring surrounding the ball? I personally found that it did not harm the accuracy at all --at least at short ranges. I loaded it parallel to the bore, and did not find that it made loading difficult at all.

Ken
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northmn

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2010, 04:03:59 PM »
I revisited the site and they show a package of 12 with patching as a preliminary offering.  The ring might not matter depending upon its diameter.  I believe the ring (in birdshot) is supposed to give a cutting effect kind of like the stuff in Fed Blackcloud steel.  So far ITX is about as inexpensive as any.  bismuth is back and can be purchased but is about $160 for 6.6 pounds where ITX is at $130 for birdshot.  Nice shot or Eco shot is $60 for 2.2 pounds.  It will not be stuff you would want to spend an afternoon at the range plinking with.

DP

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2010, 04:19:54 PM »
I wrote a reply last night, but then deleted it , not wishing to offend etc......
Bottom line is that I am not in favor of encouraging this type of thing. " harvest my limit in good conscience"  Give me a break!  I harvest what I need, often less than my limit, and in good conscience now, with lead balls that I make my self.  Having to buy these things is just another control on my self sufficient
capabilities. I will NEVER give up shooting patched lead balls, made by myself. NEVER!
As said in the Last of the Mohicans- "those that are caught may be shot, so each man decide for himself.
Those that are with us meet at the west sally port "  >:(

Offline axelp

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2010, 04:39:45 PM »
I respect your feelings and emotions... I feel your frustration believe me... I am living in a lead ban zone right now-- and it chaps my hide....

To me its worth it to explore options... if one or two lead options can be found that are non-toxic, and that work as good as lead? Then there is no harm in that to me... Its not about bowing to big gov, its about doing the right thing at the right time. but that is my opinion not anyone elses.

I think we need to keep the politics out of the issue itself and look at the big picture.

I have met the folks at TomBob Outdoors and they are good men and women---small-town hunters and fishermen just like us... And I posed this problem to them a half year ago, and they responded and invested research, $$ and time, with a possible solution--- and all for the "micro market" that traditional muzzleloading represents?  They did not have to do that... actually there were a few other manufacturers that totally ignored me... For me? I appreciate what TomBob is trying to do.

Ken
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 04:44:04 PM by Ken Prather »
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2010, 05:06:51 PM »
Yes, I know the rational.  If we can explore and come up with a way to conform, albeit a more restrictive and expensive one; what is the harm?   History is my answer. We each draw our line at a different spot.
I'll stop now. :(

William Worth

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2010, 05:10:55 PM »
If one MUST use non-lead RB's, I wonder how steel bearings with a sticky coat to allow the patch to grip the ball would fare?  I know long range would be out of the question due to lower retained kinetic energy.  Or maybe taconite (iron ore) pellets with a rough exterior...?   :P

northmn

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2010, 05:24:29 PM »
The irony on the "lead free" zones is found in the study cone by the MNDNR.  They found that lower velocity lead missiles like ML's and shotgun slugs did not contaminate meat like HV rifles.  Here was a scientific study done by a DNR.  They sort of recommended that the best remedy if that was an issue was to go to the old Foster shotgun slugs statewide.  Lead roundball almost always exit and would not be an issue.  BUT it is easier to ban all lead than to distinguish.  Shotguns are better adapted to non-toxic than rifles.  I would guess I could shoot a patched steel ball bearing out of a choke bored smoothbore with no ill effects.  How accurate?  How effective?  MN requires the use of "expanding bullets".  When all is said and done I have found steel to be adequate for game birds like grouse and pheasants and have shot a few ducks with it.  It just takes a little experimentation. But that is shotguns.  Hopefully, lead will not be banned on shooting ranges.  I could likely afford a few "special" bullets just for deer hunting as that really does not require a lot of shots (last year one).  The best substitute for lead is probably gold, and at the price of these new non-toxic products gold might be less expensive ::)  A short saboted copper HP would also work, ie similar to a Pennsylvania bullet.  Not desirable however.

DP

DP

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2010, 05:40:12 PM »
As best I recall the lead shot prohibition came about from fowl ingesting spent small shot along with small gravel as grit for their gizzards resulting in lead poisoning of the fowl.  How has it morphed into un-lead rifle balls for hunting larger game that do not eat the spent balls?  or is this a California-type thing?


Offline axelp

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2010, 05:59:29 PM »
I am really trying to avoid making this a political thread, but if you google Ridley-Tree California Condor lead ban it might shed some light. I have since found out that Arizona has lead projectile restrictions, and Minnesota, Montana and Washington State are all looking seriously at additional lead projectile restrictions.

I cant comment on the actual science and whether it is more or less tainted by politics. I am not an expert in anything except Graphic Design.

Ken
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 09:35:06 PM by Ken Prather »
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The other DWS

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2010, 06:37:57 PM »
Ken I agree that it should not turn into a political/personal ethics discussion.  A factual discussion here of the non-toxic roundball's functionality makes sense.  I apologize for my contribution to diverting it.
 I was a bit damfounded to see that the lead-shot issue has spread to rifle projectiles

Maybe there is some way to split the topic and discuss the whys and wherefores in the "over the fence" area.

Offline axelp

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2010, 07:35:11 PM »
wow-- before I started testing non-lead, I never tried anything but lead roundball. Interesting. the no bounce rubber especially...

Roundball, for me and a huge part of California, and Arizona? the lead ban IS happening...(for big game hunting)

We can still target shoot with lead, and hunt tree squirrels, turkey, pheasant and rabbit with lead.

Ken
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 07:39:51 PM by Ken Prather »
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northmn

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2010, 12:53:51 AM »
When the lead ban came about for waterfowl it enraged so many folks that it is hard to get a reasonable discussion going without getting political.  That being said I had tried to keep somewhat away from the political and try to concentrate on the studies.  I do not feel the Minnesota DNR so much wants to ban lead as they feel that the political situation will force them into it.  As mentioned their study into lead contamination on venison does add some science into thedebate for big game projectiles.  Some volunteers that helped cut up food shelf deer stated that a lot of them came in pretty bad shot up ( some hunters in their generosity gave away those deer they did not want anyway)which also complicates the issue. 
What is a viable alternative for lead?  If you look at BP hardness chart the ITX is harder than lead shot, possibly even magnum shot? They will not expand, but in a 50 cal that may not be a big issue.  Copper is now being used in HP rifle bullets, but could a copper slug be adapted for patching?  The various tungsten alloys like Hevi-shot are harder than steel.  Bismuth would be a good candidate, but again it is harder than WW.  Pure lead does not tend to fragment like alloyed lead and at lower velocities like those found in ML's would not contaminate fragmentation wise.  But if there is a worry that some bird may find a lead ball in a dead animal and eat it you are out of luck. 
I have to commend the ITX people for giving those of you living in lead ban areas an alternative but hope it does not spread too rapidly.  So far Minnesota is only looking at possible bans in state Management areas. Even the Fed WPAs only ban shot and not slugs last I saw.  Some claims have been made that waterfowl do not tend to pick up bigger shot but the finer stuff for grit?

DP
 

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2010, 02:25:37 AM »
I dont think they would be a viable solution and how many different sizes are available but I have purchased .562 dia. roundballs from Fastenall. I plan on running some across the cronograph latter this summer.   Gary

Candle Snuffer

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2010, 03:27:55 AM »
All I see coming out of this is a country wide lead banned.  

Perhaps shooting ranges will be allowed to exist provided their backstops are purged annually of lead - in which case that will no doubt cost a small fortune leading to the closing of many ranges around the country.

There's a lot more I would like to say on this subject but I won't since we are not going to get into the politics of it, though in my opinion the politics of this new non-lead ball already exist and is at the very heart of the topic.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 03:29:09 AM by Candle Snuffer »

TinStar

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2010, 05:37:09 PM »
Just my two cents. Not trying to start touble; but if anyone thinks this is NOT politically motivated by the radical enviormentalists of the far left you need to take a further look into what is going on around you. It is just another land mine in a field already full of them to get as few people as possible involved in shooting, guns, and hunting. Discouragement can work almost as well as an all out ban on firearms. Their "science" may akin to the global warming crowd.

TinStar
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Daryl

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Re: ITX non-toxic roundball
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2010, 05:57:33 PM »
This is such a sensitive topic, it is virtually inpossible to keep it non-politial.

My thanks to Ken for bringing it up, however, to let the readership know of the proposed answer to a lead ban.

I am awaiting samples of the balls myself for testing after being introduced to the manufacturer and having spoken with them.  We'll test them in 3 or 4 different .50's and hopefully in 2 different sizes.

Althought they are much lighter than lead balls of the same size, they also penetrated more deeply in Ken's testing.
Now, we must wait for the testing to show some results.
Further discussion will most assuredly run into problems and therefore this thread will be locked.  I am sorry if that 'bites', but feel it is in the best interests of this forum, in my most humble opinion.