AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Steve Bookout on November 18, 2010, 09:49:52 PM
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I have been considering building another unusual rifle to play with and think underhammers are great rifles to shoot, but really want one in flint. A friend said he had seen just such an animal, so while vacationing in Russia, sent this photo. Not a real great shot due to the flash, but it's good enough to make me feel daunted. Now all I have to do is figure out how the frizzen & pan are arranged. Any of you in the know? Cheers, Bookie(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi10.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa109%2Fsbooko%2FUnderhammerFlint.jpg&hash=636fbeda145001e4865fc2978d4e2d91992558b9)
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Mr Bookie, in the book Underhammers there is two pictures of an underhammer flintlock included. If I can locate them you juyst might get them! I'll look.
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Bruce.....Fantastic! I was unaware of the book 'Underhammers' and so here's a big thank you for the information. The book has already started it's Siren song beckoning me to find and read it. Cheers, Bookie
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy181%2Fmetalshaper%2Fflintlockunderhammer.jpg&hash=920d1abe4839c29e66dcd30e73e4be8154eab207)
Does this help?? original of German origins, if I'm not mistaken.
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
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When shooting this gun offhand, wear flame retardant sleeves. It might make a better bench gun design.
Tom
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These strike me as being one offs done by gunsmiths to attract attention.
A "lookee what I made thing" to show to the guild perhaps.
I don't see them as practical firearms.
The underhammer percussion, for general, use is marginal enough.
Dan
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Underhammers are pretty cool. I have had my eyes on them ever since I saw one that Brent Gurtek made... It was in perc. though. They just scream 1840s New England and also California Gold Rush--at least to me. A flint underhammer might have a few practical drawbacks, like burning sleaves, maybe.
K
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Yep Jonathan thats the one! Pretty interesting. Hey The Bookster has been known to shoot chunk, is that what your thinking Bookie???? That would be extra for style points :D
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This maybe a dumb question, but here it goes anyhow. What keeps the powder in the flash pan from simply dumping out when fired, and even if it burns, it would be burning in mid air. Unless your really bored, and just want to build a novelty item, why? ???
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One of the fellows that shoots with us built an underhammer flint. The big problem, as stated, is getting burned when it goes off. As to the powder falling out of the pan when the hammer hits the frizzen, I don't know, the darn thing goes off more often than not. How he did it I don't know. I'm building one right now but I'm sticking with percussion.
Mark
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The name of the book is "The Pictorial History of the Underhammer Gun". Author is Herschel C Logan
It is interesting Bookie!
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I am sure the thought process for the underhammer flint was the same as the underhammer cap gun. You don't get the downward force that is created by the falling cock which in turn should enable the shooter to better hold on target. With the vent pointed down I can sure see it being an arm burner. One design that I have seen that is interesting is an inline flint. I saw a picture somewhere of an early design but don't recall where it was. I would think that this design would be fun to play with.
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This maybe a dumb question, but here it goes anyhow. What keeps the powder in the flash pan from simply dumping out when fired, and even if it burns, it would be burning in mid air. Unless your really bored, and just want to build a novelty item, why? ???
Newton's first law of motion. an object at rest, remains at rest, until acted on by an outside/secondary force.
the idea is thought of as working something like this??
The powder is sitting on the top of the frizzen ( in reality the underside of the frizzen as we normally think of it) when the flint strikes and the frizzen/cover moves, for a few micro-seconds the powder is still hanging there in mid air..or is barely starting to separate and fall. the rest of it happens like usual ;) if it misfires, you will obviously have to re-prime ?
When I exchanged a few e-mails with Wade Ingrahm, he said if they are properly tuned just like any lock they a remarkably fast and reliable!
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy181%2Fmetalshaper%2FUHFlint.jpg&hash=8d1584cc00fa99129a08b214cb94b2763ec08d2c)
One of Wade Ingrahm's 'Target" pistols.
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Load and prime your regular Flinter ,turn it over and pull the trigger. Betcha it goes off!
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I second Leatherbelly. I demonstrate it often at the 'dog and pony's' our reenacting group does to dispel the myth that flintlocks are unreliable and slow to fire.
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I have slow motion video of a Siler firing up-side-down. Without timing it, it appears to be at least as fast. Falling powder is no problem. It has enough time to fall only a mm or so before igniting. It's possible that it might be faster as the sparks have a slightly shorter distance to travel to hit the prime.
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/ultra-high-speed-flintlock-movie.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/ultra-high-speed-flintlock-movie.php)
There are 2 streams of video on this page. The second has the up-side-down Siler along with a rifle filmed from near the muzzle at 15,000 frames/second. Watch carefully and you can see the ball and patch separate. Your first thought is that it was a hang-fire. It was NOT; I fired the gun. It felt just like normal.
(Bookie, I have a couple of other photos I'll try to fine.)
Regards,
Pletch
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You might get a cloud of priming powder mixing with sparks. Seems like ideal ignition environment.
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Those are great photos Larry, I'm amazed at how long the pan ignition takes. That the frizzen is on its second or third rebound before the pan really lets go surprises me anyway. And the maincharge ignition seems to be a fair be behind that even. I find it hard to believe that a percussion rifle would not cut that delay in half. But, of course, it is hard to judge in such slow motion.
Brent
PS. I know a bunch of guys that would like to see paper patched bullets leave the muzzle like your patched roundball photos.
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Novelty yes, but if it was that good all our flint cocks would be striking up rather than down---just seems like one outta take advantage of the law of gravity...Now I am getting opinionated!
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Well you learn something new every day, if it works, go for it. ;) But if it's as reliable as a standard flintlock, I bet you would have seen a lot more of them in use during the flint period.
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I have shot my flintlock upsidedown a few times and it works fine that way. I am not sure that all technology evolves with what works best. I would propose that ofttimes humans tend to travel more where others have traveled--in terms of trends and practical tools, fashion etc... we seem to be a "pack/herd" animal.
K
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Those are great photos Larry, I'm amazed at how long the pan ignition takes. That the frizzen is on its second or third rebound before the pan really lets go surprises me anyway. And the main charge ignition seems to be a fair be behind that even. I find it hard to believe that a percussion rifle would not cut that delay in half. But, of course, it is hard to judge in such slow motion.
Brent
PS. I know a bunch of guys that would like to see paper patched bullets leave the muzzle like your patched roundball photos.
Brent,
When I first started working in this my first goal was to do a still photo of a paper patch separating from the bullet . This has even tougher problems - like catching the 540 gr bullet in my garage. I ended up getting good still pics of a cloth patch bullet but that's in a different topic and web page.
( http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/black-powder-photography.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/black-powder-photography.php) )
Here's another link that contains slow motion video from 2009 Friendship. At the bottom are films of my old Siler up-side-down firing Null B and also Goex Cannon grade. Even the Goex cannon ignited before it fell too far.
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/new-high-speed-video-from-friendship-09.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/new-high-speed-video-from-friendship-09.php)
Somewhere in the 2009 footage I have a percussion for comparison. You can see a big difference.
Regards,
Pletch
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Larry,
Hanging out in your garage seems to be a rather interesting and educational past time. You do cool stuff.
Catching a paper patched bullet in your garage would not be too difficult with a sawdust box. But the smoke might get to be a bit much.
BTW, what the heck is Swiss Null B? I use Goex 4f for prime in my flinter, but I wouldn't call it "fast".
Brent
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Pletch,
Noticed in the upside down high speed Null B vs cannon grade..
that the Null B flash is complete and if you look at the counter underneath..no grains are evident by my eye?? look, when the cannon grade is used. some of the larger/heavier grains can be seen bouncing around the counter top, nearing the end of ignition. if I'm not mistaken??
Cool Vids,, and something to think about while I finish up designing my Flint UH lock. < just because I can ::) >
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
aka Dagwood
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Sorta destroys the question of where in the pan the prime charge should rest. Certainly can't bank it against the touch hole! ;D
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Brent,
Null B is priming powder mades by Swiss. Thay also make a 4fg priming powder. In timing experiments, Null b is the fastest prime we have, followed in order by Swiss 4fg, Goex 4fg, 3fg, 2fg, 1fg, cannon, etc. (I hope to get at a comparison test of Null B and some 7fg that "Frizzen" (list member) gave me.)
I suspect you're right about a sawdust box. There is considerable set up involved in getting a pic of a paper patch separating. I won't say I can't do it, but it's tougher than a cloth patch. With help I think I could repeat the cloth patch pic in a good afternoon. With paper patch there is some trial and error work to do that has already done with cloth.
Metalshaper,
The cannon pieces that fell to the table are those that were released first by the frizzen or that were not impeaded by the frizzen. In some cases the ball of fire expands and burns some of them. In timing tests, Goex cannon is roughly twice as slow as Null B. If lock ignitions are within the normal .0400 - .0500 second range it won't matter what priming you use up-side-down. But, my gut says that you don't want to use 2fg or larger.
Sorta destroys the question of where in the pan the prime charge should rest. Certainly can't bank it against the touch hole!
Oh , but I do. Against the vent is 15-25% faster than banked away. I haven't timed up-side-down vents though, but the closer the prime is to the vent the faster the barrel ignition. I have a web page on that too.
Regards,
Pletch
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Catching a paper patched bullet in your garage would not be too difficult with a sawdust box.
Larry, just in case the sawdust doesn't completely stop the bullet, I'd park the Double A off to the side.
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Now, on to vent location for an underhammer.....
Do you put the vent as high as you can go? That would make it at the bottom of the pan if you turn the gun upside down.
Or mid-pan, or even a little lower, as to be obscured by the frizzen edge?
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Catching a paper patched bullet in your garage would not be too difficult with a sawdust box.
Larry, just in case the sawdust doesn't completely stop the bullet, I'd park the Double A off to the side.
8 ft of oiled sawdust will stop a 550 gr bullet launched at over 1400 fps. Every time.
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That reminds me of the time I wanted to test for pressure signs in my Sharps 45 x 3 1/4". With a full case of powder and a 500 full jacketed Hornady bullet, I knew I needed something to stop the bullet, but I thought the twenty-four inch diameter spruce stump on which my anvil sits would do the trick. After all, a round ball only goes in a couple of inches. So, when the house was empty, I put on my ear muffs, stepped back about ten feet from the stump, aimed at the middle and touched it off. The concussion cleared the rafters of twenty years worth of shop dust, but there was considerable more dust in the air than I thought reasonable. The bullet completely penetrated the stump, exploded a new ten pound bag of kitty litter, and stopped on the far side of an eight inch square timber in the corner of the shop that just happened to be in the path. Apart from the rifling marks on the bullet, there was no other damage. And, no signs of excessive pressure. Now I could see why I never recovered the bullet from a moose.
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Since we are pretty far from underhammer flintlocks, I will move my paper patch bullet photo reply to "Black Powder Shooting".
Regards,
Pletch
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Bookie,
One of the under hammer flint photos I found was included in Metalshaper's post. Here is one that shows a neat pistol but may not show enough of the action to be useful.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi93.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl72%2Flpletch%2FOriginal%2520LOcks%2FUnderhammer_flint_pistol.jpg&hash=5acf319cb6e6f4a2dc6524f2b8059b392853d8e9)
Regards,
Pletch
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Gentlemen, I thank you for the photos. That last pistol is certainly a work of art to me. Altogether, they do give me some idea on which way to travel with this project. Several times, I have fired Siler flints upside down after priming, cocking, putting my thumb over the notch in the pan for the vent, and then drenching it under a running faucet to convince customers that a well tuned and properly maintained flinter is just as reliable as percussion. So the pan emptying too soon was not one of my concerns at all. I have seen the in line flinter made in the 1760s, but that is something beyond my metal fabricating skills and personal interests. Brother Dan hits the nail on the head with me, because I like to fool with the unusual, most probably to feed my ego by telling myself 'I did it'. ;D Now I gotta go find me that book.........Cheers, Bookie
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Bookie,
One of the under hammer flint photos I found was included in Metalshaper's post. Here is one that shows a neat pistol but may not show enough of the action to be useful.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi93.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl72%2Flpletch%2FOriginal%2520LOcks%2FUnderhammer_flint_pistol.jpg&hash=5acf319cb6e6f4a2dc6524f2b8059b392853d8e9)
Regards,
Pletch
Seems this is pretty much a standard box lock design turned upside down.
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I agree with you, Jim. Cheers, Bookie
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It's pretty hard to see the sights on a standard boxlock, unless you have a scope mounted on the side.
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I was at friendship in Spring of 2017. A guy showed me his underhammer flint pistol. He said that Null B was too fine and tended to be too easily dispersed by the breeze, but 4FFFF worked just fine. He refused to sell the gun to me. Ok, I' m a bit crazy, but so is everyone else on this list...delightfully so.
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Groove yard of forgotten posts..... ;) NOT a sidelock....just thought I'd mentioned that. :P
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Yes Mike I was about to post this and was told there was a new reply.
Ok guys this was a 7 yr old topic that pre-dates our side lock only rules. I am going to lock this to keep it from being revived.
Dennis