AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Dennis Glazener on October 03, 2008, 10:00:58 PM
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I finished up a mountain rifle yesterday and took it out to sight in this morning. I had been dreading this since about 2 years ago I had the same lock and never did get it to spark well.
I put a new flint in it. (the little 3/4" that is correct for that lock) and fired 3 pans of priming and each one flashed with no problems. Great maybe I am home free with this lock. Got to the range and the first two shots were dead on at 25 yards, great maybe I have been dreading this for no reason. The third shot no pan flash, the fourth shot no pan flash, same for the 5th, I checked the priming, then dumped it and put in fresh. 6th shot no flash!
Turned the flint over and it fired the first time, good. Next shot fired then 4 more times no flash.
When the flint is bevel up it strikes the frizzen at the lowest point and only for about a 1/2". When I turned the flint over it seems to pretty much strike all the way down the frizzen but the flint is very dull by now and I get mad and go home.
My question is how can I tell if the frizzen is too hard? I think it might be since it has no gouges in it, only clean scrape marks. I hate these locks! I had to use it due to short length that I needed on this stock.
Another thing I hate about them is that its almost impossible to position a new flint where it clears the frizzen in the half cock position!
Anyone have any experience with these locks?
Dennis
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My experience has all been positive with small Mantons. although I haven't installed one since the mid 90s. The ones before that time were all excellent! Don't know about the quality today. I swore for years that it was the quickest, most reliable lock available! Maybe your mainspring needs more tension. There are a lot of factors involved in getting any lock to be dependable & quick.
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Wish I could say the same! Only used 2 and both had the same problem, eats flints and few sparks!
Dennis
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Dennis, if you think it may be too hard, pop it in the oven for a 1 hr. bake at 400 deg. It won't get harder, nothing to loose. You can mostly judge by the quality and size of the flint gouges. Small tight gouges=hard, large deep=soft
I like to re-harden and temper all frizzens myself. Some locks are supplied with a frizzen that has been Kasenited, which wears off pretty quickly.
KW
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Dennis,
I have two from the early nineties that work great. I bought one about a year ago that is worthless. I sent it back and they replaced it with another one that doesn't work either.
When I compared the old ones with the new one I have, the geometry is different. Maybe they got a new drill jig or something but they are definitely different. It's hard to explain without seeing them side by side. It looks like the three holes that hold all the internals in when drilled are slightly rotated counterclockwise, looking at the lock from the outside with the frizzen to your right. If you have an old one around compare them and let me know if you see the same thing. I called L&R and tried to explain it but never followed up with pictures.
I used to love these locks.
Bill
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Dennis, if you think it may be too hard, pop it in the oven for a 1 hr. bake at 400 deg. It won't get harder, nothing to loose. You can mostly judge by the quality and size of the flint gouges. Small tight gouges=hard, large deep=soft
I like to re-harden and temper all frizzens myself. Some locks are supplied with a frizzen that has been Kasenited, which wears off pretty quickly.
KW
It may be only wishful thinking on my part; but I was under the impression that the frizzens used on new locks today are hard clean thru! At least locks from the major lock makers today ???
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I like to re-harden and temper all frizzens myself
I agree.
as far as the flint eating I finally got around to relieving the frizzen spring from 3.5 lbs down to 1.5 lbs, this has helped alot.
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I have heard allot of this from people on that lock in the past 10 years. It is exactly why I will not build a double flinter, even tho I have all of the parts to build it Except the locks. One resolution is to send it to LC Rice & have LC rebuild back to the original design. I know several guys that had him rebuild new locks for them for double flinters & he does a great job on them, and the do work then.
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I read in foxfire #5 that a frizzen that is to hard will produce a white spark that dances around.The author stated that the desired color was a reddish orange.I do know that the blacksmiths tested the carbon content of unknown steel types by grinding a scrap piece and watching the spark pattern produced.
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Had the same problem on the rifle I'm building. The problem, as best I could figure out was the length of the flint. They're itty bitty things, and most you get are 3/4" square. I had Rich Pierce make me up some 5/8" long by 3/4" wide. That 1/8" gives you more room to properly space the flint with a proper leather. I did re anneal the frizzen though, but still had the problem you stated with the 3/4" long flints, but when I switched, the problem went away. Those bigger locks just don't look right on some of these small caliber SMR's
Bill
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Dennis, You want to use a 5/8 flint with that lock
sometimes if the flint is too short after a few strikes with the bevel up, it shortens enough that the top jaw hits the frizzen and flips it open before the flint contacts.
When I use these locks I take a little off the nose end of the jaws so there is less fooling around scooting the flint ahead during shooting.
If that's not the trouble, look at the color of your sparks, if you get few and they are pale yellow, and the frizzen is barely marked, chances are your frizzen is too hard. You can try drawing it back in your oven as was already said. I'd bury it in a can of pre heated dry sand and throw the whole works in the oven, keeps the draw heat more even
Too soft doesn't always leave great big gouge marks depending on the angle the flint hits. If that's your problem you'd want to re harden it and draw it back. You'd probably want to try that before you resort to case hardening.
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I have heard allot of this from people on that lock in the past 10 years. It is exactly why I will not build a double flinter, even tho I have all of the parts to build it Except the locks. One resolution is to send it to LC Rice & have LC rebuild back to the original design. I know several guys that had him rebuild new locks for them for double flinters & he does a great job on them, and the do work then.
IMHO, the original design of these locks is outstanding, however, the current offering from L&R leaves a LOT to be desired. Bob Roller uses the castings of the plate, frizzen and cock to build his custom Manton locks. They work real well. He makes is own internals though.
He WILL NOT rebuild a factory lock, but only works from scratch.
I haven't seen lock worked on by Sam Everly or LC Rice, but I'm sure they are top notch.
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I finished up a mountain rifle yesterday and took it out to sight in this morning. I had been dreading this since about 2 years ago I had the same lock and never did get it to spark well.
I put a new flint in it. (the little 3/4" that is correct for that lock) and fired 3 pans of priming and each one flashed with no problems. Great maybe I am home free with this lock. Got to the range and the first two shots were dead on at 25 yards, great maybe I have been dreading this for no reason. The third shot no pan flash, the fourth shot no pan flash, same for the 5th, I checked the priming, then dumped it and put in fresh. 6th shot no flash!
Turned the flint over and it fired the first time, good. Next shot fired then 4 more times no flash.
When the flint is bevel up it strikes the frizzen at the lowest point and only for about a 1/2". When I turned the flint over it seems to pretty much strike all the way down the frizzen but the flint is very dull by now and I get mad and go home.
My question is how can I tell if the frizzen is too hard? I think it might be since it has no gouges in it, only clean scrape marks. I hate these locks! I had to use it due to short length that I needed on this stock.
Another thing I hate about them is that its almost impossible to position a new flint where it clears the frizzen in the half cock position!
Anyone have any experience with these locks?
Dennis
I re-arched the main and frizzen springs on my lock made a WORLD of difference over the performance with the stock springs which were too weak. Add about 3/8 to 1/2" to the mainspring by bending more arch in the lower leaf and perhaps 1/8"-3/16" to the frizzen spring. I simply wedged the frizzen spring and heated to blue. I had to heat the mainspring to red and bend it. Worry about goofing with the frizzen after this.
Remember this lock was apparently made from casting of an original and the original springs were likely a little tired.
A properly designed lock will invariably work much better with stiff springs and will not eat flints.
I hope to have this one shooting in a couple of weeks.
Dan
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I now remember this lock is very picky about length of the flint. I made a flint Hawken rifle with this lock in 1982 or '84 and it was tricky. Like Ian, I experienced that the top jaw screw could hit the frizzen in certain circumstances. This lock needed such a precise length that flints can't last long without repositioning.
It's kind of a pain with certain locks that they don't work well with standard sized flints. I LOVE the Chambers Germanic but make flints only 3/4" long and a little more than 3/4" wide for mine. A 7/8" long flint will hit the frizzen at half cock. But it tolerates a worn flint just fine and still sparks well. I agree that strong springs can make a big difference.
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I surprised that people are saying this lock eats flints. With my 2 old ones I can get 45 to 50 shots out of a flint. That's using a 5/8 english before and now using Rich's white flints. With my new 1 year old Manton, I'm lucky I can get a spark. I'll try to post a picture later showing how the geometry changed on these locks over the last several years.
Bill
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Another thing to wonder about is minor differences in the cock and how it presents the flint to the frizzen.
It is possible to have 2 cocks from the same mould be somewhat different if the wax is deformed in handling while being attached to the "tree" etc.
Rotating the bridle would simply change where the cock rested at 1/2 and full cock. If would not necessarily change how the cock relates to the frizzen and pan. This is the key to how a lock sparks and where it puts the sparks.
Dan
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Here's the photo of an old and new Manton. The old one's on top and works great, the new one on the bottom is useless. Notice the angle the hammer is to the pan. The top screw that holds the bridle is drilled lower on the new lock and the second bridle screw is also drilled much lower. Check out the angle of the stirrup too. Everything is different. I sent one lock back and they replaced it with this one.
Bill
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh98%2Ftobyje%2FFlintlock%2Fmantonlocks.jpg&hash=9e1a0f6407cfcfb136f5c2fed19356df8345c0ac)
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Rich, those flints you made me work fantastic. I went and remeasured them. They're 5/8" square, and I remember you telling me they were a bit of a pain..something about big hands and itty bitty flints to knap. ;D ;D ;D But thanks as they work fine in this little lock. Also as Ian mentioned a good anneal in heated sand at 450 degrees for an hour then turn the oven off and let it slow cool really helps.
Bill
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I'd bury it in a can of pre heated dry sand and throw the whole works in the oven, keeps the draw heat more even
Let me see if I got this right, put the sand in a can, like a soup can, maybe two, bring it up to temp, put the frizzen in, cover with sand, back in the oven and let it go for an hour, then let the whole thing cool?
Thanks, Tim C.
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Like Ian said, bury it in the sand (inch of sand at least below and above the frizzen and frizzen not touching the sides of the can anywhere), put it in the oven then heat the oven and use a thermometer.
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Here's the photo of an old and new Manton. The old one's on top and works great, the new one on the bottom is useless. Notice the angle the hammer is to the pan. The top screw that holds the bridle is drilled lower on the new lock and the second bridle screw is also drilled much lower. Check out the angle of the stirrup too. Everything is different. I sent one lock back and they replaced it with this one.
Bill
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh98%2Ftobyje%2FFlintlock%2Fmantonlocks.jpg&hash=9e1a0f6407cfcfb136f5c2fed19356df8345c0ac)
I bought a Manton last spring and sent it back for a refund. IMHO, There were too many issues, found with little more than a superficial inspection, for me to deal with.
And I like to tinker with locks.
It was replaced with a Chambers late Ketland instead. No problems with the Ketland.
I had a bad feeling that a replacement Manton would be as bad as the reject...and your experience bears that out. I'm glad I went with the Chambers.
I would think that with all of the information exchanged on these internet sites, that L&R would get the message that their locks need better QC. Their bottom line has got to be suffering. Maybe they haven't found a Chinese interpreter that can accurately convey what needs to be done to improve quality. ;D
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Their bottom line would sure suffer, except that chambers will not make a left hand in the Ketland.
Guys like me will continue to use and tweek the L&R as its the only left hand game in town as well as the only option for a double.
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I would try drawing back at 400 first and see if that helps, if it was still too hard go 425 or 450. No reason I know of to slow cool, when the frizzen has tempered for an hour it's done, just dump it out and don't stick your tongue on it right away.
So we don't confuse things, this is drawing back or tempering of a hardened part, I don't think you'd call this process annealing - that is taking the steel to a much higher heat than your kitchen oven could hit in it's wildest dreams, then allow the part to cool very slowly to room temperature, which results in a frizzen soft enough to cut with saws / files / gravers etc . Drawing back leaves some hardness but takes away the brittleness. Doing all this in your kitchen oven (when done right) is an easy fix for a part that was improperly heat treated and left too hard.
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Thanks to all of you for your input. I checked the frizzen close and there is only scrapes not gouges so I tried a file and a file just skates across it. So as soon as I find some sand and the right size can I will pull the frizzen and draw it back starting with 400 as Ian recommended. If that doesn't fix it off to Sam Everly it goes Monday! I will let him do his magic on it. Might even see if he can put his roller bearings in it! I certainly needs to be reworked!
Oh, Rich I am ordering a doz of the flints like you made for Bill K.
I had Rich Pierce make me up some 5/8" long by 3/4" wide. That 1/8" gives you more room to properly space the flint with a proper leather.
Thanks again for all the help.
Dennis
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It was replaced with a Chambers late Ketland instead. No problems with the Ketland.
I had a bad feeling that a replacement Manton would be as bad as the reject...and your experience bears that out. I'm glad I went with the Chambers.
Normally I only use Chambers late Ketlands but I screwed up on my last pattern. Made the pattern exactly like the original rifle but failed to check to make sure a late Ketland would fit on the lock panels. Between the shorter breech plug, no vent liner and the original lock being shorter than the late Ketland I didn't have enough lock panel to use the late Ketland! Ended up with 2 stocks that I will have to use this dog gone Manton's on! Had to lengthen the panels almost a 1/4 inch!
Dennis
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Their bottom line would sure suffer, except that chambers will not make a left hand in the Ketland.
Guys like me will continue to use and tweek the L&R as its the only left hand game in town as well as the only option for a double.
And guys like me will not build a rifle or a double that requires one of their lock now. I have had 6 of their locks in the past 8 years & every single one of them was a total PITA to get to function properly & reliably. When you can send the lock to the guy that built it for years (LC Rice) and he can make it work ::) there is no excuse for the currect manufacturer not to make them better. And the disappointing thing is when you return a lock to them, what you get back is no better than what you sent in. :( But on the other hand, maybe I am just to picky ? or maybe I am just spoiled with quality of Chambers locks.......
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Here's the photo of an old and new Manton. The old one's on top and works great, the new one on the bottom is useless. Notice the angle the hammer is to the pan. The top screw that holds the bridle is drilled lower on the new lock and the second bridle screw is also drilled much lower. Check out the angle of the stirrup too. Everything is different. I sent one lock back and they replaced it with this one.
Bill
If it will not put the link below the lock plate I would file the stop on the cock to let the cock get closer to the pan. Looks to me like they changed the cocks. The lower stirrup is actually in better position than the upper. But this is probably due to a change in the locator pin for the spring or the spring is slightly different.
Will have to go out and assemble the one I have and see how it looks I guess.
But not tonight.
Dan
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Update on the %$#@*&^!! Manton flintlock. Yesterday I pulled the frizzen off the lock, found a nice little General Foods International Mocha can and put about an inch of sand in the bottom. Then the frizzen and filled the rest of the can with sand (from an old bag of play sand I had, real fine grained).
I put the can/sand/frizzen in the oven cranked the temperature up to 375 and baked it for a little over an hour AFTER the oven reached the 375 degree temperature. Was going to use my wife's meat thermometer to make sure the temperature setting was correct on the stove but found it does not go beyond 190 degree's so this is by the electric ranges thermostat.
I hate to report this but trying it manually, no powder in the pan it still casts very few sparks and doesn't look like it was improved from what it was >:( I will take it out again as soon as I can but I am not optimistic on it firing any better than it did the last time.
BTW I compared it to billd's 2 photos and it matches the second photo. Someone mentioned filing the cock stop, anyone else think this would help?
Dennis
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Dennis.
Send that thing to me. All I want is the postage both ways.
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Jerry,
If he sends you that lock, I would like very much to see a series of pictures and a write up about what you did. Unless you just go the case harden route as you have covered that extensivley on the old board, and I thank you for.
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I'm sending photos of mine to L&R. I'll post the reply when I get it.
I would also like to see photos of what Jerry does to Dennis's lock.
Thanks,
Bill
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Dennis.
Send that thing to me. All I want is the postage both ways.
Jerry that is a great offer and I may take you up on it but I might have stumbled into what was causing the problem or at least part of it.
While changing the flint on the lock I noticed a bright spot on the tip of the upper jaw of the cock. Maybe caused by the tip of the jaw riding down the face of the frizzen. If it was then it may be keeping the flint from making full contact with the frizzen. I filed a little off the tip and snapped it a couple of times and it seems to be sparking decently. I had a dinner to go to and couldn't fool with it anymore tonight. Tomorrow I will make sure I took enough off the upper jaw and will see if that cures the problem.
Dennis
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Hopefully it's fixed but I am serious about fixing it. I usually balance the springs. heat treat the frizzen and correct any abnormalities with the geometry. there are dozens of things tha tcan be wrong with a flint lock. I am a firm believer that one must build several from scratch before he really understand them compelely. That's why guys like Gary Brumsfield have them figured out.
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I just finished grinding more off the upper jaw. I probably have removed close to .200" and really could stand to take more off. When I cycle by hand the upper jaw tip still is extremely close to the frizzen face. After I ground off the jaw the lock still didn't spark like I would expect it to so back in the little mocha box filled with play sand. This time I cranked the temperature up another 25 degrees to 400. Left it there for an hour after the oven showed it to be pre-heated to that setting. Pulled it out and put it back in the lock with the same flint. This time it flashed the pan 10 out of 10 tries :D I now pronounce the lock dependable!
Evidently I had two problems, first the frizzen was too hard and second was the very tip of the top jaw was striking the frizzen and not allowing the flint to make solid contact with the frizzen. I would think using longer flints would keep the jaws from contacting but if they are long enough to contact the frizze before the jaw tip does the flint will not allow the frizzen to close the pan cover on half cock.
Thanks to all the tips and hopefully others will be able to get their Mantons to spark as good as mine does now.
Dennis
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I have one simular to that now. I have to pick out flints that are just the right length. Some day when I get time I plan to tig a little on the tip of the sear. That will fix it.
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This has been an interesting thread to me as I was thinking of using one of these locks on a pistol.
It almost seems that making a lock would be less trouble, but it would be easier to tweak already cast parts. L&R must have gone to sh"t, as their locks used to be ok. What would the alternative be?
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I really like L&R locks. They just need a little adjustment usually. What I dislike the most about them is that tiny little fly. If the bridle is just a little too tall the fly can fall out at times. I Am in love with the English fly. But I have never seen one on an American made flintlock. The fly has a eyelet on it that slips over the tumbler axle. They are much stronger and impossible to fall out.
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Jerry, so you think the Manton lock is a worthwhile pursuit? Certainly would be easier than making an entire lock. Just seems if you buy a lock ready to go it should be ready to use, maybe Jim Chambers should
think about a small later English lock.
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I wrote an article for MuzzlaBlasts in 1990 in which I timed an L&R Manton and Durs Egg lock. It was the first of three articles on lock timing I did. It is near the bottom in the "Featured Article" column. You can also use the following link:
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/flintlock-timing.php (http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/flintlock-timing.php)
I realize that a lot can happen in production since I wrote the article, but I felt at the time that both locks performed well. One of the locks had a bevel preference, but I liked them both. I don't think I mentioned it in the article, but the priming powder was Goex ffffg. I think it might have been the only choice in 1990.
Of interest in the article are three photos taken .011, .013, .015 seconds after the sear tripped. You can see where the flint is on it's way down the frizzen. The flash was controlled by a computer, but still old technology.
Regards,
Pletch
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In 1990 the locks were being built correctly & they were a good lock..... :-\ back then...........
And they are a fast lock, if that is any concession. Fast doesn't help much if the quality & performance is not there.
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Jim chambers and other quality lock makers have spoiled the makers of today. In my opinion no lock on the market today is ready to go as is. Jim's locks are the closes that I know of but A lock should be polished and case hardened before it is ready to go. None of them are. Except Pedersoli but his needs a lot of tweeking also. Things were so tough when I started that I feel lucky just to get all the castings. My dream lock would be a jim chambers delux with a stirup type mainspring connection and a roller frizzen. I'm going to convert one for my personal long rifle.
In my lifetime there were two locks I could not get to spark very well at all. The frizzens has some chrome or something in the alloy. They just wouldn't spark no matter what. I made new frizzens out of 1075 and then case hardened and tempered them. One was a very early thompson canter.
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I just finished grinding more off the upper jaw. I probably have removed close to .200" and really could stand to take more off. When I cycle by hand the upper jaw tip still is extremely close to the frizzen face. After I ground off the jaw the lock still didn't spark like I would expect it to so back in the little mocha box filled with play sand. This time I cranked the temperature up another 25 degrees to 400. Left it there for an hour after the oven showed it to be pre-heated to that setting. Pulled it out and put it back in the lock with the same flint. This time it flashed the pan 10 out of 10 tries :D I now pronounce the lock dependable!
Evidently I had two problems, first the frizzen was too hard and second was the very tip of the top jaw was striking the frizzen and not allowing the flint to make solid contact with the frizzen. I would think using longer flints would keep the jaws from contacting but if they are long enough to contact the frizze before the jaw tip does the flint will not allow the frizzen to close the pan cover on half cock.
Thanks to all the tips and hopefully others will be able to get their Mantons to spark as good as mine does now.
Dennis