L&R Manton sparking problems

[Dennis Glazener]

I finished up a mountain rifle yesterday and took it out to sight in this morning. I had been dreading this since about 2 years ago I had the same lock and never did get it to spark well.

I put a new flint in it. (the little 3/4" that is correct for that lock) and fired 3 pans of priming and each one flashed with no problems. Great maybe I am home free with this lock. Got to the range and the first two shots were dead on at 25 yards, great maybe I have been dreading this for no reason. The third shot no pan flash, the fourth shot no pan flash, same for the 5th, I checked the priming, then dumped it and put in fresh. 6th shot no flash!

Turned the flint over and it fired the first time, good. Next shot fired then 4 more times no flash.

When the flint is bevel up it strikes the frizzen at the lowest point and only for about a 1/2". When I turned the flint over it seems to pretty much strike all the way down the frizzen but the flint is very dull by now and I get mad and go home.

My question is how can I tell if the frizzen is too hard? I think it might be since it has no gouges in it, only clean scrape marks. I hate these locks! I had to use it due to short length that I needed on this stock.

Another thing I hate about them is that its almost impossible to position a new flint where it clears the frizzen in the half cock position!

Anyone have any experience with these locks?
Dennis

[t.caster]

My experience has all been positive with small Mantons. although I haven't installed one since the mid 90s. The ones before that time were all excellent! Don't know about the quality today. I swore for years that it was the quickest, most reliable lock available! Maybe your mainspring needs more tension. There are a lot of factors involved in getting any lock to be dependable & quick.

[Dennis Glazener]

Wish I could say the same! Only used 2 and both had the same problem, eats flints and few sparks!
Dennis

[ironwolf]

  Dennis, if you think it may be too hard, pop it in the oven for a 1 hr. bake at 400 deg.  It won't get harder, nothing to loose. You can mostly judge by the quality and size of the flint gouges. Small tight gouges=hard, large deep=soft
  I like to re-harden and temper all frizzens myself.  Some locks are supplied with a frizzen that has been Kasenited, which wears off pretty quickly.
  KW

[billd]

Dennis,
I have two from the early nineties that work great. I bought one about a year ago that is worthless. I sent it back and they replaced it with another one that doesn't work either.
When I compared the old ones with the new one I have, the geometry is different. Maybe they got a new drill jig or something but they are definitely different. It's hard to explain without seeing them side by side.  It looks like the three holes that hold all the internals in when drilled are slightly rotated counterclockwise, looking at the lock from the outside with the frizzen to your right.  If you have an old one around compare them and let me know if you see the same thing.  I called L&R and tried to explain it but never followed up with pictures.
I used to love these locks.

Bill

[Roger Fisher]

  Dennis, if you think it may be too hard, pop it in the oven for a 1 hr. bake at 400 deg.  It won't get harder, nothing to loose. You can mostly judge by the quality and size of the flint gouges. Small tight gouges=hard, large deep=soft
  I like to re-harden and temper all frizzens myself.  Some locks are supplied with a frizzen that has been Kasenited, which wears off pretty quickly.
  KW

It may be only wishful thinking on my part; but I was under the impression that the frizzens used on new locks today are hard clean thru!  At least locks from the major lock makers today

[Tom Cooper]

I like to re-harden and temper all frizzens myself

I agree.

as far as the flint eating I finally got around to relieving the frizzen spring from 3.5 lbs down to 1.5 lbs, this has helped alot.

[Birddog6]

I have heard allot of this from people on that lock in the past 10 years.  It is exactly why I will not build a double flinter, even tho I have all of the parts to build it Except the locks.  One resolution is to send it to LC Rice & have LC rebuild back to the original design. I know several guys that had him rebuild new locks for them for double flinters & he does a great job on them, and the  do   work then. 

[JBlk]

I read in foxfire #5 that a frizzen that is to hard will produce a white spark that dances around.The author stated that the desired color was a reddish orange.I do know that the blacksmiths tested the carbon content of unknown steel types by grinding a scrap piece and watching the spark pattern produced.

[Bill of the 45th]

Had the same problem on the rifle I'm building.  The problem, as best I could figure out was the length of the flint.  They're itty bitty things, and most you get are 3/4" square.  I had Rich Pierce make me up some 5/8" long  by 3/4" wide.  That 1/8" gives you more room to properly space the flint with a proper leather.  I did re anneal the frizzen though, but still had the problem you stated with the 3/4" long flints, but when I switched, the problem went away.  Those bigger locks just don't look right on some of these small caliber SMR's

Bill

[Pratt]

Dennis,  You want to use a 5/8 flint with that lock

  sometimes if the flint is too short after a few strikes with the bevel up, it shortens enough that the top jaw hits the frizzen and flips it open before the flint contacts.
When I use these locks I take a little off the nose end of the jaws so there is less fooling around scooting the flint ahead during shooting.

  If that's not the trouble, look at the color of your sparks, if you get few and they are pale yellow, and the frizzen is barely marked, chances are your frizzen is too hard. You can try drawing it back in your oven as was already said.  I'd bury it in a can of pre heated dry sand and throw the whole works in the oven, keeps the draw heat more even

  Too soft doesn't always leave great big gouge marks depending  on the angle the flint hits. If that's your problem you'd want to re harden it and draw it back. You'd probably want to try that before you resort to case hardening.

[J.D.]

I have heard allot of this from people on that lock in the past 10 years.  It is exactly why I will not build a double flinter, even tho I have all of the parts to build it Except the locks.  One resolution is to send it to LC Rice & have LC rebuild back to the original design. I know several guys that had him rebuild new locks for them for double flinters & he does a great job on them, and the  do   work then. 

IMHO, the original design of these locks is outstanding, however, the current offering from L&R leaves a LOT to be desired. Bob Roller uses the castings of the plate, frizzen and cock to build his custom Manton locks. They work real well. He makes is own internals though.

He WILL NOT rebuild a factory lock, but only works from scratch.

I haven't seen lock worked on by Sam Everly or LC Rice, but I'm sure they are top notch.

[Dphariss]

I finished up a mountain rifle yesterday and took it out to sight in this morning. I had been dreading this since about 2 years ago I had the same lock and never did get it to spark well.

I put a new flint in it. (the little 3/4" that is correct for that lock) and fired 3 pans of priming and each one flashed with no problems. Great maybe I am home free with this lock. Got to the range and the first two shots were dead on at 25 yards, great maybe I have been dreading this for no reason. The third shot no pan flash, the fourth shot no pan flash, same for the 5th, I checked the priming, then dumped it and put in fresh. 6th shot no flash!

Turned the flint over and it fired the first time, good. Next shot fired then 4 more times no flash.

When the flint is bevel up it strikes the frizzen at the lowest point and only for about a 1/2". When I turned the flint over it seems to pretty much strike all the way down the frizzen but the flint is very dull by now and I get mad and go home.

My question is how can I tell if the frizzen is too hard? I think it might be since it has no gouges in it, only clean scrape marks. I hate these locks! I had to use it due to short length that I needed on this stock.

Another thing I hate about them is that its almost impossible to position a new flint where it clears the frizzen in the half cock position!

Anyone have any experience with these locks?
Dennis

I re-arched the  main and frizzen springs on my lock made a WORLD of difference over the performance with the stock springs which were too weak. Add about 3/8 to 1/2" to the mainspring by bending more arch in the lower leaf and perhaps 1/8"-3/16" to the frizzen spring. I simply wedged the frizzen spring and heated to blue. I had to heat the mainspring to red and bend it. Worry about goofing with the frizzen after this.
Remember this lock was apparently made from casting of an original and the original springs were likely a little tired.
A properly designed lock will invariably work much better with stiff springs and will not eat flints.
I hope to have this one shooting in a couple of weeks.

Dan

[rich pierce]

I now remember this lock is very picky about length of the flint.  I made a flint Hawken rifle with this lock in 1982 or '84 and it was tricky.  Like Ian, I experienced that the top jaw screw could hit the frizzen in certain circumstances.  This lock needed such a precise length that flints can't last long without repositioning.

It's kind of a pain with certain locks that they don't work well with standard sized flints.  I LOVE the Chambers Germanic but make flints only 3/4" long and a little more than 3/4" wide for mine.  A 7/8" long flint will hit the frizzen at half cock.  But it tolerates a worn flint just fine and still sparks well.  I agree that strong springs can make a big difference.

[billd]

I surprised that people are saying this lock eats flints.  With my 2 old ones I can get 45 to 50 shots out of a flint. That's using a 5/8 english before and now using Rich's white flints. With my new 1 year old Manton, I'm lucky I can get a spark. I'll try to post a picture later showing how the geometry changed on these locks over the last several years.

Bill

[Dphariss]

Another thing to wonder about is minor differences in the cock and how it presents the flint to the frizzen.
It is possible to have 2 cocks from the same mould be somewhat different if the wax is deformed in handling while being attached to the "tree" etc.
Rotating the bridle would simply change where the cock rested at 1/2 and full cock. If would not necessarily change how the cock relates to the frizzen and pan. This is the key to how a lock sparks and where it puts the sparks.

Dan

[billd]

Here's the photo of an old and new Manton. The old one's on top and works great, the new one on the bottom is useless. Notice the angle the hammer is to the pan. The top screw that holds the bridle is drilled lower on the new lock and the second bridle screw is also drilled much lower. Check out the angle of the stirrup too.  Everything is different. I sent one lock back and they replaced it with this one. 
Bill

[Bill of the 45th]

Rich, those flints you made me work fantastic.  I went and remeasured them. They're 5/8" square, and I remember you telling me they were a bit of a pain..something about big hands and itty bitty flints to knap.   But thanks as they work fine in this little lock.  Also as Ian mentioned a good anneal in heated sand at 450 degrees for an hour then turn the oven off and let it slow cool really helps.


Bill

[Tim Crosby]

  I'd bury it in a can of pre heated dry sand and throw the whole works in the oven, keeps the draw heat more even

 Let me see if I got this right, put the sand in a can, like a soup can, maybe two, bring it up to temp, put the frizzen in, cover with sand, back in the oven and let it go for an hour, then let the whole thing cool?

Thanks, Tim C.

[rich pierce]

Like Ian said, bury it in the sand (inch of sand at least below and above the frizzen and frizzen not touching the sides of the can anywhere), put it in the oven then heat the oven and use a thermometer.

[J.D.]

Here's the photo of an old and new Manton. The old one's on top and works great, the new one on the bottom is useless. Notice the angle the hammer is to the pan. The top screw that holds the bridle is drilled lower on the new lock and the second bridle screw is also drilled much lower. Check out the angle of the stirrup too.  Everything is different. I sent one lock back and they replaced it with this one. 
Bill

I bought a Manton last spring and sent it back for a refund. IMHO, There were too many issues, found with little more than a superficial inspection, for me to deal with.
And I like to tinker with locks.

It was replaced with a Chambers late Ketland instead. No problems with the Ketland.

I had a bad feeling that a replacement Manton would be as bad as the reject...and your experience bears that out. I'm glad I went with the Chambers.

I would think that with all of the information exchanged on these internet sites, that L&R would get the message that their locks need better QC. Their bottom line has got to be suffering. Maybe they haven't found a Chinese interpreter that can accurately convey what needs to be done to improve quality. 

[Tom Cooper]

Their bottom line would sure suffer, except that chambers will not make a left hand in the Ketland.

Guys like me will continue to use and tweek the L&R as its the only left hand game in town as well as the only option for a double.

[Pratt]

  I would try drawing back at 400 first and see if that helps, if it was still too hard go 425 or 450. No reason I know of to slow cool, when the frizzen has tempered for an hour it's done, just dump it out and don't stick your tongue on it right away.
 
 So we don't confuse things, this is drawing back or tempering of a hardened part, I don't think you'd call this process annealing - that is taking the steel to a much higher heat than your kitchen oven could hit in it's wildest dreams, then allow the part to cool very slowly to room temperature, which results in a frizzen soft enough to cut with saws / files / gravers etc . Drawing back leaves some hardness but takes away the brittleness. Doing all this in your kitchen oven (when done right) is an easy fix for a part that was improperly heat treated and left too hard.

[Dennis Glazener]

Thanks to all of you for your input. I checked the frizzen close and there is only scrapes not gouges so I tried a file and a file just skates across it. So as soon as I find some sand and the right size can I will pull the frizzen and draw it back starting with 400 as Ian recommended. If that doesn't fix it off to Sam Everly it goes Monday! I will let him do his magic on it. Might even see if he can put his roller bearings in it! I certainly needs to be reworked!

Oh, Rich I am ordering a doz of the flints like you made for Bill K.

I had Rich Pierce make me up some 5/8" long  by 3/4" wide.  That 1/8" gives you more room to properly space the flint with a proper leather.

Thanks again for all the help.
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

It was replaced with a Chambers late Ketland instead. No problems with the Ketland.

I had a bad feeling that a replacement Manton would be as bad as the reject...and your experience bears that out. I'm glad I went with the Chambers.

Normally I only use Chambers late Ketlands but I screwed up on my last pattern. Made the pattern exactly like the original rifle but failed to check to make sure a late Ketland would fit on the lock panels. Between the shorter breech plug, no vent liner and the original lock being shorter than the late Ketland I didn't have enough lock panel to use the late Ketland! Ended up with 2 stocks that I will have to use this dog gone Manton's on! Had to lengthen the panels almost a 1/4 inch!
Dennis