AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Roger Fisher on October 18, 2008, 02:38:34 AM
-
While doing some 'work' at our range today a 'shooter' arrived with all his goodies incl heavy sandbagsetc etc and his scope mounted in line. I very respectfully welcomed him and listened (hiding my boredom) to his tale of woe having to do with leaving his 'rifle' in the cellar for the past year and working over 3 hrs to get the rust out of it including the bore. ::) I told him to do his thingee at our bench. He proceeded to take the gun apart and finally fired a shot at 75 yds on a paper plate.
Of course, he missed it. Moved it in to 35 yds in our bunker and started shooting while I made myself busy elsewhere. He fired 5 or 6 shots hit the plate with a 'group'of at least 6 inches widest shot. He left happy as a hog in slop.
Amazing!! ;D
I'm sure you have all seen similar shooting at your own club ranges...?
BTW - I have tried (over the yrs) to talk this same fellow in to coming to our shoots and allow us to 'help' him (a convert?) to no avail. I gave up !
I frequently speak to folks at the high power (suppository) range and let them know that if we have 3 entries with an in-line even if 3 shooters use the same 'gun' we will have a match just for them! Hand out fliers etc. non show up. We also spent the $ for newspaper adv to no avail that we know of. One of those bench high power shooters stated "You guys shoot 'freehand' don't ya??? That said alot in one question. ::)
-
most people seem to want everything instant and easy without any effort. your tale doesn't surprise me in the least. was at the range today and a fellow was braging about how he could keep all his shots from a 7mag inside a 6" circle. I went an pulled my target and all the holes were inside a 2" circle. that was 50yds off the bench, patched round ball and flint ignition. he gathered his stuff and left without a word. now I'm not a great shot and my group was very good for me and dammm it felt good
-
I've yet to see anyone show up at a range with an in-line for any sort of shooting. The stores around here seem to sell them, but still no shooters that I've seen. This phenominum has been explained to me (by someone who markets them, as - people who shoot inlines are not interested in shooting BP, only in extending their hunting season with something that looks simple and easy to shoot as well as load. I can add to that statement that extending seasons are needed for these people as they lack the skill to 'fill their tags' with a modern firearm during regular seasons. Many of these same people shoot compounds for exactly the same reason. Most are upset cross-bows aren't included in the bow season. Sad, but there is little help for those who fit this category - includes the majority of inline shooters - but not all - keep the faith.
-
From what I have seen at my local range is that most the folks shooting inlines only
come out to the range prior to, or during, hunting season - shoot an 8 to 12 inch group from 50 yards - think they really achieved something - then leave - and you don't see them until the following year - happy as a lark they hit paper once again, somewhere...
I must admit that many of todays hunters absolutely amaze me with what little effort they are willing to put into achieving any real accuracy for the hunt... Sure, there are still good sportsmen out there in this world who strive for a decent group before setting off on the hunt. Unfortunately they are becoming less in numbers each passing year.
I guess I just don't understand the modern mind set when it comes to hunting? I'll stick with the old ways and strive to make every shot count, and not rely on a lucky shot.
This is just what I've noticed...
-
While doing some 'work' at our range today a 'shooter' arrived with all his goodies incl heavy sandbagsetc etc and his scope mounted in line. I very respectfully welcomed him and listened (hiding my boredom) to his tale of woe having to do with leaving his 'rifle' in the cellar for the past year and working over 3 hrs to get the rust out of it including the bore. ::) I told him to do his thingee at our bench. He proceeded to take the gun apart and finally fired a shot at 75 yds on a paper plate.
Of course, he missed it. Moved it in to 35 yds in our bunker and started shooting while I made myself busy elsewhere. He fired 5 or 6 shots hit the plate with a 'group'of at least 6 inches widest shot. He left happy as a hog in slop.
Amazing!! ;D
I'm sure you have all seen similar shooting at your own club ranges...?
BTW - I have tried (over the yrs) to talk this same fellow in to coming to our shoots and allow us to 'help' him (a convert?) to no avail. I gave up !
I bet he has been using one of those wonderful perchlorate powders as well. Would not matter where is stored it unless *really* cleaned. The barrel is now a tent stake.
Dan
-
I see the weekend hunters sighting in at the range all the time. They come out 1 week before deer season, sight in then try to shoot " A buck" (Notice the quote.). I work withone, he gave me his caplock to check over and it was so rusted its a wonder it will fore. He has never fired it, it is not sighted in and he has no powder or balls. Hes out in the woods with it today. Shame. Tim
-
To many people it is just an implement...they could care less what it looks like, as long as it goes "bang". Many years ago my brother Dick was at a local sportsman's club shooting his flintlock. After shooting a shot, a spectator said,
"you'd better check that thing, there's fire coming out the back end"..........Don
-
I've yet to see anyone show up at a range with an in-line for any sort of shooting. The stores around here seem to sell them, but still no shooters that I've seen. This phenomenon has been explained to me (by someone who markets them, as - people who shoot inlines are not interested in shooting BP, only in extending their hunting season with something that looks simple and easy to shoot as well as load. I can add to that statement that extending seasons are needed for these people as they lack the skill to 'fill their tags' with a modern firearm during regular seasons. Many of these same people shoot compounds for exactly the same reason. Most are upset cross-bows aren't included in the bow season. Sad, but there is little help for those who fit this category - includes the majority of inline shooters - but not all - keep the faith.
This may be the most accurate explanation of the phenomenon that I have ever read! Sad, but true...
-
I've been around lots of them over the years, and due to a public radio interview I did yesterday about muzzleloaders, have had the opportunity to talk to more. But I'm seeing that the're divided into a couple of broad categories:
In the first are guys who treat their cartridge guns the same way and put the same amount of effort into hunts during the regular season. No changing them, and good riddance. Probably best not to have them in the traditional muzzleloading world at all.
In the second category is a much larger number who use inlines simply because all they hear and read in magazines is about ease of cleaning, long range and the "difficulties" of traditional. Magazines are swamped with inline ads and there's nothing in the articles and nothing in the ads about traditional.
I can sort out the first group pretty quickly, and I frankly don't put a lot of effort into changing them.
The second group is fertile ground for a little truth and a lot of converts. They aren't using traditional gear because their ears have been filled with sales pitch and they can't find any other info. Spend a little time with them, let them shoot your guns and show them how really easy it all is.
You've got them nibbling, so it's time to set the hook:
Show them a gun you built yourself and ask them if they've ever seen a kit for building an inline. There isn't a single one on the market!!!!! And yet a whole bunch of these guys tie their own flies, build their own fishing rods and reload their own ammunition.
Then tell them about some of the inexpensive sidelock kits available- Traditions and Lyman coming to mind first. I know, I know, they can't measure up to a good custom build from parts, but you want these guys to build their own quickly and easily. No better way to get a traditional gun they really care about in their hands. They can come around to more "sophisticated" gear and builds later and at their own pace, but you have to get them in the door first.
While chatting with the radio reporter about muzzleloader hunting I drifted off into how I'm hunting entirely with gear I made myself, saying that I spend a whole year getting ready for the hunt. Out of everything I said in the interview, that segment is the only part they played in its entirety.
Next thing you know, statewide public radio aired the interview. And now my phone is ringing off the hook and my email buffer is stuffing with people wanting to know more about building and hunting with their own. I know some of these guys, and most of them have inlines in their closets. Yet they are fascinated with the idea of hunting with gear, especially guns, they've made themselves.
All they need is a little exposure, a little help, and some TLC.
-
The Troy NRA youth team holds a meat shoot every October as a fund raiser. The youngsters support Whispering Pines and we in turn make sure we turn out in good numbers for them. Nice bunch of kids and adults.
Last year I observed one inline shooter. Open sights, off hand event. Not sure how he was doing, but was happy to see one there if for nothing else but to show support for the shooting sport.
I wonder if being surrounded by all the traditional rifles, made an impression beyond the inline advertisements? He certainly saw an enviroment beyond anything the inline crowd has enjoyed. What harm can come from opening that door by holding an open shoot from time to time? What fear do we have? What better way to displace the myths surrounding traditional rifles that inline advertisers have built their product around?
-
Brownbear- what a wonderful post. It certainly raises my hopes that there could be more converts to tradiotional equipment than I imagined. Goodonya!
Unfortunately, such seems not to be the case here and by the sounds of it, most elsewhere too. Alaska seems to be a fertile ground for the advancement of our sport. The choice of kits you made is a good one, although I haven't seen any Traditions kits here. Seems to me those kits are only slightly more expensive than an inline. The Lyman would be my choice - but then as indicated, I haven't seen any Traditions rifles or kits.
Hunting in cold (freezing) weather imparts an extra burden on those of us who shoot patched round balls & this is the main reason many of the earlier BP shooters around here switched to shooting slugs. We do need a cold weather (freezer) test on the available "Valley Lubes", whether the "Sh" or "Hodg/Horn" types. We know the LeHeighValley lube will work. Left in the deep-freeze for a few hours and coming out still plyable should be enough of a test. Moose snot, if mixed appropriately will also work, but some find difficulty with fouling.
-
I think the key is identifying and helping people with an interest, a curiosity, or a proven inclination to making their own ANYTHING. You'll find them in most other outdoor sports.
An example is a talented leatherworker I know. She's never developed a strong interest in hunting, but coming from fascination with the bags I've built, she's expressing interest in my kit rifle (Lyman). Her husband is a good friend, and I've already provided him the details to buy her a kit for Christmas. He's never expressed an interest in muzzleloading, but he sure wears a lot of his wife's leathergoods. And so it goes.
I'm sure Alaska spawns or attracts a higher proportion of people interested in self-sufficiency, but especially in small towns across the continent there are lots more. Since folks in those small town also reflect a high proportion of outdoor enthusiasts, I'd have to guess the only thing stopping them from venturing into traditional muzzleloading and homemade gear is lack of information. And the major manufacturers buying magazine advertizing certainly won't stear them away from factory-made gear!
I'm surprised you haven't come across the Traditions kits. They're all over the web and available though a wide range of big box stores. Though crude by many standards, they are inexpensive and turn out fully functional rifles. Probably nothing historically accurate in the lot of them, but they're not inlines and folks can build their own with them. They're a foot in the door to traditional shooting, and an important one, I think.
-
When we talk about inlines I will assume you mean the newer generation of longer barreled guns like the Omega or the TC Encore. There are people that shoot these quite a bit and work up loads for them so that they do get deer and other game. With the newer faster twists they are not hopeless and can be fairly accurate. I showed a flintlock I built to an individual that shoots an Encore and he was unimpressed. "Not enough time" to work up loads or learn one or whatever.
He was glad to see that scopes may be allowed in the ML season. A co-worker of mine uses a bolt action ML with scope during regular season to force himself to shoot instead of emptying a pump shotgun. Gets deer at over 100 yards with it. They work well enough for many that they do not want to change. They use the phoney black powder and spend a fortune on ammo and think everything is better.
They have been brain washed by marketers into believing the "modern ML's" are easier and that RB's bounce off game. What gets you is that the gear is totally a joke. The minnie was invented for warfare as an ideal slug for easy and rapid reloading. If one is used that fits the bore properly and with a heavier skirt the minnie will outdo any of the modern marvels. The whitworth rifle will outshoot them hands down. In the 1870's the Irish used ML's with bullets against the US in a competition in which the US won by one shot. 1000 yards. Always thought it would be fun to build up a rifle of that type to show off with against a modern gun. Wouldn't convert them, the modrn marvels are also priced right and found in sporting goods stores, traditional arms are not.
DP
-
A neighbor of mine, otherwise a rational fellow, is a disciple of the inline for this season, a scoped crossbow for that season and some newfangled contraption made by a company that carries the name of the Honorable John Moses Browning...for another season. He claims smaller groups with the latter but I've not seen proof of that; quite the contrary actually. Now I want you to know it bothers him greatly to look at targets perforated by my flinter. I can see it in his eyes. His eyes are younger, he uses scopes and he does not understand. His name is Larry....the Newfangled Guy.? ??? I am however almost infinitely patient and in time I will prevail. Most likely when he cracks a rock on steel the first time.
I made one of those targets once, sitting beside a lawman with one of those obnoxious black rifles, hardly as long as my arm, festooned with a vast array of attachments. He fired off a bag rest and it had an Aimpoint sight on top. His "friends"...perhaps "peers" is a better word; they looked at the targets with high quality optics and began to chide him w/o mercy. Not having such benefit I merely finished the string of 5 and went down to retrieve the paper when the line was cold. Looking at his target I concluded the safest place down range was the black of his paper. He looked at my target and turned his head away real quick like, sort of like if he didn't see a 1.5" group made by a flintlock it really didn't exist. I've seen pointers pick up a dove by mistake and it's a similar expression. Sad affair anyway, what with his responsibility to serve and protect. I noticed they...him and his "peers" seemed shocked, as a group, when my 3rd patch came out cleanish before casing the rifle. Two myths in one day, down in flames.
I don't care much for those boys and their toys, but my neighbor has a chance at redemption. Inlines are a lot like airboats. So's their owners for the most part.
-
I suspect the deciding factor here in Alaska is the prohibition against scopes during the special primitive weapon seasons, though they can be used during the regular season. Almost no one uses MLs during the regular season, while the primitive weapon seasons are usually in pretty desireable locations and time slots.
With open sights, inlines and their flatter trajectories just don't hold any advantage over tradiotional guns. It's just a lot easier to "sell" the sidelocks.
-
The biggest thing about the in line is the marketing hype and availability of black. A flintlock needs real black powder. A traditional percussion works better with real black. Try buying real black at a Gander Mountain or Cabelas. We have a local individual that sells black, but he is past retirement age and you have a choice between GOEX and GOEX. I can buy substitutes about anywhere that sells guns. There was a person on another site about cast bullets that claimed to have shot a rag elk and a couple of deer with a traditional Pennsylvania styled Italian percussion in 45. He now used in lines. When I mentioned that a 45 was considered a little light but he made meat, he made a comment to the effect that that was before everyone told him everyone told him that it wouldn't work. I cannot buy a traditional styled rifle anywhere close to home. I can drive 140 miles to a Cabela's and get one, but compare prices to a plastic special. Some claim good accuracy with in lines and I have seen targets in the black. Most that do use loose powder instead of pellets. Most loads using pellets are rather stiff for the gun weight, which is another thing that makes in lines a joke. Look at the loads used for the rifle weight.
DP
-
back in '87 Missouri had their first dedicated muzzleloader season for deer. how it worked was to get the extra ten days afield in December you had to buy a muzzleloading tag and hunt only with a muzzleloader during the regular firearms season in November. you couldn't hunt with a centerfire during Nov. then pick up the ML for Dec. it was all or nothing with the ML. it was announced 11 months before taking place. the only inline on the market then was the Knight MK-85 and nobody knew who Knight was or knew what an inline was so nobody had one. everyone bought T/C and CVA caplocks. i was in high school and wanted those extra days so i saved and bought a Renegade .54 cal. i had killed two deer with a recurve by then so i didn't think a ML would be a handicap at all. i had no idea what i was doing with ML's but got good groups with maxihunter bullets. i remember the same thing with people shooting traditional style MLers as with "a typical inline hunter/shooter". people with the caplocks were just like the example inline shooter.
-
A sad thread that not only illustrates, but exacerbates, the divisions amongst our various shooting clans.
I can find the same thread at AR15.com, or at Benchrest Central.com, or at Shotgunners.com. The only difference will be which firearm is deemed Supreme Above All, and all the rest barely warrant the steel required to make them.
No person's choice of firearm deserves criticism. What we should be doing is sharing our particular passion with open minds, no matter which type of gun we choose. You never know, you might learn something interesting about SUR's and EBR's (Sport Utility Rifles and Evil Black Rifles). You'll also need everyone else to watch your backs when the gun grabbers start their shenanigans.
Probably ought to make sure your own house is clean before criticising the neighbors. The sport of building and shooting contemporary flint or percussion rifles is contaminated by the use of modern materials and machine shop methods if you want to take this position to the extreme.
Look for common ground, not obstacles.
-
one thing i have notice about in liners compared to traditonlalist is the habit of throwing the in line away when the breach sticks i have received 3 in this manore and have traded them all but one that one is on recall and I'm waiting for the new one in the mail but if any of you guys feel the urge to throw any of your caplocks or flinters away just give me and email ;D because we all know you cant clean a ML with a stuck breechplug in it :D
-
Inexperienced black powder shooters, Its not just with inline shooters, it happens with all firearms shooters when there's no one to help lend a hand and teach you the sport.
Some think that a 3" group @ 100 yards with a scoped 30-06 is a great group.
I know i had to teach my brother in law to stop pounding on the bullet with the ramrod when i let him shoot my muzzle loader.
-
Gotta be sure the ball is down on the powder until the rod bounces out of the barrel, doan-cha know? See it every year at Hefley - and I'm sure as most all other shoots around the world.
-
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gotta be sure the ball is down on the powder until the rod bounces out of the barrel, doan-cha know?"
More than likely it would be one of those modern bullets than a ball,there is a great number of hunters carrying reasonably traditional styled sidelocks loaded with the latest modern design bullet and sporting modern style aperture sights which gives them the same basic outfit as the inline hunters ballisticaly and sighting except there is a hammer on the side of the gun, the "in-line" thing is realy meaningless as one can so easily make the comparable hunting outfit out of a sidelock and call it traditional because there were miine balls in the civil war and peep sights on crossbows in the 14th century...just a couple of the typical "reasons" given to call such a rig a traditional hunting outfit.
-
A traditional percussion works better with real
I got to tell ya, I was surprised today when i took my traditions kentucky outside today for a little fun. I used Pyrodex P as the main charge *50gr* and after fiddling around with finding the right amount of powder to put in the pan *4f goex* that sucker was lighting off like i was loaded with pure black powder. I installed an RMC vent liner some months ago which has a bigger hole than the factory and i just pushed a few grained into the flast hole and then cleared it,Primed and fired a dozen shots with only 1 flash in the pan and 2 hits to the frizzen that didnt do anything until i cleaned the flint off.
Tomorrow i plan on doing some more shooting! I love this rifle but its hard for me to get the real stuff so this was a very pleasant finding that allows me to take her out to the range and enjoy some smoke.
-
Pyrodex Select seemed to work ok for me but I had a can of RS that would only pattern at 100 yards with my 50 percussion and would hang fire and perform other interesting tricks. I still got the best accuracy with BP. Almost all of the "substitute" black powders have double the shot to shot variance over black. I ahve heard other claim good results with the stuff but I stick to black. You can mail order black from Grafs. I got 5 pounds of black for $85. Locally I would have to pay about $130 for subs. I shoot black.
DP
-
Does anyone know if Goex has had any luck in "deregulating" the amount of powder they can ship? Seems to me that they had a campaign going (might still be), to do just that, where as they could ship as little as one pound of powder to a buyer and I think it also had something to do with the "hazard" fee as well.
Regardless, (and I know all of us would like to see some deregulation of real black powder), being able to buy as little as 5 pounds of the real stuff has been a step forward.
As far as anyone comparing a modern inline to a traditional muzzle loader there is no comparison whatsoever. This has been stated in a letter from the President of Pedersoli a few years back, and is floating around on the TMA boards and/or in some folks personal files.
There are far to many folks (including most game commisions) that do not understand a modern muzzle loading firearm from a traditional muzzle loading firearm. When many "Primitive" muzzle loading seasons were set up, modern muzzle loading firearms (Inlines) did not exist.
Today these primitive firearm seasons are now called "Muzzle Loading Seasons" and reflect nothing whatsoever of the hard work put in by the traditional crowd to create these second seasons as far back as the 70's to create and maintain a "traditional muzzle loading firearm's hunting season" in such a way as our ancestors hunted before these Modern Inlines scabbed in on the traditional hunting community.
So here's what we have today; scoped plastic stocked stainless steel barreled Inlines using fake black powder and modern smokeless powder along with sabot
bullets and modern rifle primers. Sure sounds like a modern firearm to me...
So,,, which season do these Modern Inlines belong in? It's obvious to many of us who have been around this sport for many years that they do "not" belong in the pre established "Primitive Firearm Seasons" prior to their introduction in the '80's... They belong in the "Modern Firearm Seasons"... That's a no brainer.
What we have now in most cases is hunting seasons crossing over allowing what now has become obvious, any modern or primitive firearm in these late (special) hunting seasons. A simple solution; Re'create the hunting seasons with early and late hunting seasons and allow the hunter to choose his firearm to use. Traditional firearm hunters will still use their traditional smokepoles, while non-traditional hunters will chuck their Modern Inlines and hunt with their .270's and 30-06's...
Remember, it was the traditional crowd of hunters that lobbied for and helped to created most these States "Primitive Muzzle Loading Hunting Seasons" not the Modern Inline crowd that have been scabbing on to these special hunting seasons for decades. Let the Modern Inline crowd lobby for their own special hunting season is my thoughts...
Then again in the past several decades it has become obvious to me and many others that todays mind set is, "why do it if I don't have to. Let someone else do all the work. It's easier to scab in on the end results."
What a crock of bull our society has become that can't distinguish a Modern Firearm from a Traditional Firearm... Very sad state of affairs indeed.
-
Here is the Pedersoli Letter I referred to in my post above;
BillinOregon from the Muzzleloading Forum received this letter from Pedersoli:
Dear Mr. Powell,
In the past we allowed Mr. Bridges to test our traditional ML rifles as well as our inline ML rifles and he had our cooperation and limited sponsorship. Due to the new path Mr. Bridges has taken , in which traditional muzzle loading rifles would no longer have their current exclusive hunting period and in which inline rifles would hunt at the same time as the traditional rifles, we have withdrawn our former support and sponsorship of Toby Bridges.
The Davide Pedersoli company has advised Mr. Toby Bridges to remove our company name from any list of sponsors who support his lobbying efforts because even though we manufacture in-line muzzle loading rifles, we strongly support the use of traditional types of flintlock and percussion lock rifles during hunting periods assigned to muzzle loading rifles.
We always believed that the hunting with muzzleloading guns, both traditional and modern black powder in-line rifles, could co-exist, even if two different muzzleloading hunting seasons would be more required. Certainly we never thought they could get into conflict with each other.
We regret Toby Bridge's decision which surprised us, considering that in the past he took important positions, which we could share, but absolutely not his last one.
The use of traditional muzzleloading rifles for hunting has all the historical, political and rational reasons to continue and to expand and cannot be forced to die, as Toby Bridges warns and predicts (and is trying to make happen) nor can be the enthusiasm and will of people who are dedicated to this traditional sector be disregarded. On the contrary, the traditional muzzle loading guns contributed surely much more than the modern inline muzzleloading guns have to the muzzle loading hunting being accepted in our states. Rather than trying to promote the inline rifles and push aside the exclusive hunting season for traditional percussion or flintlock rifles we should all be working to strengthen the separation of hunting seasons for archers, traditional muzzle loading rifles, the powerful inline rifles and of course the modern cartridge rifles.
The inline rifles compare directly with modern high power cartridge rifles and we hope that all government officials involved with making or changing hunting rules will recognize the big advantage in power and range which inline rifles (which use conical bullets) have over the traditional antique or replica rifles which use round ball bullets. Both archery hunters and traditional muzzle loading rifle hunters accept the great challenge and limitation of their hunting weapons, the need to stalk the game and get very close in order to make a clean killing shot. For the inline rifle and modern cartridge rifle hunters a much different challenge is presented and the mixing of traditional and inline rifles in the field at the same time would be unexceptable to the vast majority of traditional muzzle loading rifle users.
I read the letter Toby Bridges published in his web site in which he explained he has been misunderstood. I acknowledge his effort, however this letter gives me the opportunity to contradict Toby about the in-line rifles being the natural modern evolution of the muzzleloading guns.
The real modern aspect was when many years ago some of the American states opened the hunting season to the muzzleloading guns. This was a modernity sign! What happened later with the introduction of the in-line rifles and the continuous improvements to reach high performances, such as the use of pelletized substitute powder, waterproof ignition systems or sabot bullets, etc. made the modern muzzloading guns get closer to the modern cartridge gun performance. I am convinced that the hunters using in-line rifles are only taking advantage of this enhanced performance in a dedicated muzzleloading hunting season. I am also convinced that if the muzzleloading hunting season becomes an "open hunting season", several of the users of the in-line rifles will drop their rifles to hunt only with the modern ones.
I have to say that I am fond of the hunt in all its aspects, I am a hunter with modern guns, with cartridge guns and with muzzleloading traditional guns.
Davide Pedersoli is not against the modern In-line rifle hunting, which we consider as an alternative and different activity from the one with traditional guns . Without doubt, hunting with traditional guns must be protected and sustained in the spirit of the rules approved in many of the American states because it gives the American sportsman a hunting challenge and emotional satisfaction which no other type of gun can give.
Pierangelo Pedersoli,
President
Davide Pedersoli & C.
Via Artigiani 57
I-25063 Gardone Valtrompia (Brescia) Italy
ph.030 8915000 fax 030 8911019
www.davide-pedersoli.com
-
Well, the letter says a lot and I appreciate your posting it. It is refreshing to read that somebody that makes both types of firearms can still distinguish the difference.
My previous post was intended to make light of the prevailing mindset I see in most, not all, inline shooters. I still have a sense of humor and they are as a group, an average cross section of Americana. They are, as a group, very deep in a sea of ignorance. There are exceptions of course, both in mentality and knowledge. There are exceptions in local circumstances as well. As an example, not long ago I learned that the availability of BP in Alaska is close enough to zero to make it near perfect.
There are a great many issues at play in this discussion and I doubt my words will influence anyone, but on the off chance, here goes.
There is discussion above regarding the broader view of what is good for shooting sports and what is not. Unity and division sums it up. Well, the Dems/Liberals perceive inlines as modern guns and are actively pursuing legislation on state and federal levels to tighten regulation. In many cases they seek to treat inlines as firearms under the NFA. It falls under the banner of "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." I do not say they are right, don't shoot the messenger please. It is mentioned only to raise a counterpoint, that being the issue is divisive as a matter of convenience to them and our calls for unity influence them not. They see a rifle that shoots large bullets at sometimes high velocity and are scope sighted, something decidedly NOT primitive.
There is an economic issue at play too. I'm sorry, but whether we approve or not, it is hard to ignore the point that a $150 Knight in blister pack on the shelf at Wal-Mart is going to sell. It will enable the buyer to participate in the muzzle season cheaply, thus extending his or her hunting season and participation in the sport. It is not entirely a bad thing, regardless of philosophy, for the number of hunters buying licenses is dwindling each year in this country. Hey, you can even put a $34.95 "Big Azzed Buck" scope on it too. The problem is this: Nobody, but nobody is manufacturing primitive muzzle loaders, flint or cap lock, which are cost competitive. It is a matter of scale and results because various states have made a decision to lump all "muzzle loaders" in one basket. It is good and evil at once, but it is the landscape before us. My single flintlock cost a lot of money, over 10 times what the Knight runs....do the math and imagine the financial situation of the average shooter.
Now I think the basic reason traditional hunters eschew the inline is self explanatory. They are, by name, traditionalists. Why would one reasonably expect them to welcome with open arms those are are not into the primitive seasons? Why would they embrace "shooters" in the field when they are hunters? Therein lies a major fly in the ointment in my opinion, and the basis goes back to my comments about ducks. There is a vast difference between hunters and shooters and in this case the preponderance of evidence in most circumstances indicates there is state sponsored class warfare at play. It pits the two schools against each other in the name of raising participation and tax revenue, pure and simple. Unfortunately, one of the "classes" is ignorant that the other does not hold their chosen arm in high regard. We are even able to find the behavior associated with the such arms offensive. They are likely to write us off as grumpy ol' -----...and keep doing what they do.
There are some states wherein the distinction between NFA firearms follows federal definition. Muzzle loaders are not firearms under NFA. The point is that in some states, convicted felons participate in primitive season hunts with the blessing of the state. In Florida for example, felons may bow hunt but not use any firearm, regardless of type since Florida does not follow NFA convention. We even classify air rifles as firearms down here. Anyway, it irritates me that an ex-con can get out early in the season and have first crack at anything before I, with no criminal record, get my socks wet. Reason? I do not bow hunt. My choice, so I just quietly pout about the matter. Mileage in your state may vary. My point is one of law. If you control the law (legislature) you control what's happening. If you don't like the law, get active and force change.
It is MY opinion that primitive hunting and equipment should be congruent. It is also my opinion that most states do their residents a vast disservice in promoting primitive seasons in the front of the season. The activity should be one that extends the season but does not always provide subsidy to a given class of hunter. If one must have a primitive season, rotate it in chronological fashion. Hey, I'd be OK with a frosty morning smokepole hunt. I also think it would be appropriate that primitive weapons be allowed throughout the entire season for most of us have a choice of weapons to use in the hunt. I rather don't give a hoot what is in my hands in any given month for I am a hunter more than a shooter. Regardless of the fact that I can realistically shoot game with every type of arm and at a great range, I choose to still hunt for the most part. The ranges are seldom long and anything available these days would suffice, be it bow, shotgun, ML or modern rifle.
With all that said, and Lord knows there is more to espouse on the subject. I find inline shooters misled by marketing technique and financial means. Thus they are susceptible to my own "marketing". If two dozen neophytes take to the field with an inline that otherwise would not, it is a good thing. If I can sway half of them to a higher plane of the sporting fields I've done my job....and I will try to do so. Count on it.
That is all.
Dan
-
What has been mentioned here has been my experience with people who shoot inlines. Wyoming does not have a special primative rifle season so there is not much incentive to get one. The ones who do are the ones who want the newest Cool New Toy.
To get a little new blood in the local club I broght up the notion of allowing inlines to shoot with up as long as they used a patched roundball and open irons sightes just like the rest of us. My thinking was that when they found they couldn't come close to shooting with the traditional rifles a few of them would get interested and come over from the dark side. No such luck. Most of the rest of the club wanted nothing to do with them.
-
Most of the rest of the club wanted nothing to do with them.
Makes it kind of hard to win converts, don't it!!!!!!
-
You know, this whole topic has planted seeds for a good idea.
I'm going to stir around a bit and see if I can't talk up a shooting match between inlines and traditionals. All open sights. All offhand. Ought to be great fun and instructive to all.
On further thought, I'm going to suggest a "bonus round" of shooting, kind of like when my daughter was compeating for rodeo queen. Some inspired organizer set it up so they not only had to look purty, but had to ride competitvely. Their bonus round came when contestants had to swap horses with each other and do it all again.
I know it's going to be hard on the soul for many of us to trade guns with an inline shooter for a few shots. But what better way to get a traditional gun into the mitts of an inline shooter?
Might be a whole lot of fun. Maybe even better if we can outshoot the inline shooters with their own guns. As noted before, almost none of these guys practice offhand, so it ought to be easy, even with a strange gun.
-
brownbear, a shooting match would be a good idea, just don't say anything about having to shoot offhand to the inliners, until after they post their targets. chuck-ia
-
It's obvious to many of us who have been around this sport for many years that they do "not" belong in the pre established "Primitive Firearm Seasons" prior to their introduction in the '80's... They belong in the "Modern Firearm Seasons"... That's a no brainer.
The original MA primitive season was for smoothbores only. The traditional smoothbore season was intentionally changed for a good reason.
Deer populations exploded and even archery seasons were greatly expanded.
If it wasn't for inlines reviving the sport, muzzle loader hunting was dead in the water and couldn't be justified keeping as the earliest deer hunting season as it originally was here in CT either. We don't even have a public land general firearms season here. It's either muzzle loader, archery or shotgun.
It's the rifled barrel that is the common denominator in every state now since that's about the only gun trait that isn't outlawed anywhere.
Maybe we should define legal muzzle loaders as only those guns with smooth bores?
That's just like criticizing inlines. Having a rifled barrel doubles the reach of the projectile that no other single rifle innovation alone does.
What is it that makes some folks think that rifling isn't modern and newfangled?
What if someone advocated that having a rifled barrel is cheating traditionalism? Where would the wrangling have us end up?
Once rifled barrels were accepted as being part of traditional muzzle loading, the door was opened and history was made. Why should anyone be reactionary and say that anything should be the way it was? Does anyone in their right mind advocate returning to slavery since that was the way it originally was in the U.S., or that women shouldn't vote?
States exercise their freedom to define muzzle loading hunting seasons in any way they choose. That's the nature of our system of self-government that folks have fought and died for.
Our system promotes freedom and justice for most if not all, not just for the minority viewpoint.
-
This thread is nearly torn!! :-X
My original intent was to show how the typical in line and user took care (misused) his rifle and how lousy he or it shot although all the fancy scopes, sand bags, shooting bench, bullets, large target close in was/were used. :)
-
Boy, aren't you right!!!!!!
The ones I know, their ONLY offhand shots are at deer. Never seen one yet stand up and walk away from the bench with his gun in his hand, unless it was to put it in his car.
-
I think it still shows what you were looking for Roger. Yes, perhaps it does show a bit more then asked for, but it's hard to filter off some of the reasoning behind the poor traits of the inline users without establishing the where and why of these poor existing traits.
A good example would be Knight wanting to put forth a rifle that had the same feel as a 30-06. By doing so he embedded the idea that you don't need to clean an Inline rifle right away after the day's use if you only shot it a few times. Pyrodex makers also propelled this notion of poor muzzleloading rifle maintenance along with Wonder Lube. Shoot it and throw it in the corner and clean it whenever you feel like it... That's a crock in itself.
There have been some good ideas come from this thread I do believe. I like the idea of getting the Inline users to the range and going one on one in some competition with the traditionalist, but it takes both sides to go to the range and do this and what I've seen, heard, and read, we're not going to see this happen very often from the Inline users side as they simply do not seem to give a hoot how they shoot.
Just some added thoughts. Nothing personal towards anyone. :)
-
This thread is nearly torn!! :-X
My original intent was to show how the typical in line and user took care (misused) his rifle and how lousy he or it shot although all the fancy scopes, sand bags, shooting bench, bullets, large target close in was/were used. :)
Oh, you mean like the fellow a couple of weeks ago that left the ramrod in his Omega? Gotcha. He's gonna make some reconstructive surgeon a few house payments before it's over, but he'll live.
-
:o where did this happen at?
-
Hernando Sportsman Club, Hernando County Florida. I was not there when it happened. A range officer told me about it when I uncased a BP target rifle. It was about 2-3 weeks ago, the day before I was there. From what I was told the fellow got involved in conversation with a friend during the loading process, then proceeded to totally destroy his gun, some of his face and right forearm.
-
ouch.
-
We had a shoot in September and there was 2 or 3 young guys, (under 16) who were shooting inlines with round balls, they did very well, beat some of us older guys, these kids belong to a 4-H shooting club and take shooting very serious, as does their coach (mother). We usually let them shoot our real guns when they show up at the range when we are there, I am hoping it is just a matter of time before they develop a interest in trad. guns, they really get a kick out of shooting our flintlocks. As for getting the adults who hunt with an inline at our shoots, just ain't gonna happen. The biggest reason (I think) is they would have to shoot offhand. Or maybe they just could not handle being beat with a trad. gun? Maybe if they got to shoot side by side with trad. guns they might not see that big of an advantage? I am talking short range. I know, I know, they are not going to give up their scope, sabots, pellets, bipod , all these things giving an advantage for that 200 yard shot, for a simple trad. gun with iron sights shooting a patched round ball where range is limited. chuck-ia
-
Even with a scoped inline and 4 grand into a hunt, they still miss those shots because they dont ever practice off hand shooting.
Bench rest and shooting bags are great for working up an accurate load but at the end, you NEED to shoot under field conditions to hit what you are aiming at.
-
Go ahead and try to run a shoot with inlines/traditional. I hope it works for you.
We have tried..offered nice prizes and even had a bbq and chili offering for chow. Lots of inlines sold locally. Our shoot was a month before deer season..not one inline shooter showed up. Not one.
After all the work we put into this , I said I would not do it again. IMO trying to woo inline shooters is a waste of time.
-
Hernando Sportsman Club, Hernando County Florida. I was not there when it happened. A range officer told me about it when I uncased a BP target rifle. It was about 2-3 weeks ago, the day before I was there. From what I was told the fellow got involved in conversation with a friend during the loading process, then proceeded to totally destroy his gun, some of his face and right forearm.
Any photos available to post??????? I have seen several (ok at least a couple rods shot out of mls no harm except embarassment and sore shoulders!
-
Hernando Sportsman Club, Hernando County Florida. I was not there when it happened. A range officer told me about it when I uncased a BP target rifle. It was about 2-3 weeks ago, the day before I was there. From what I was told the fellow got involved in conversation with a friend during the loading process, then proceeded to totally destroy his gun, some of his face and right forearm.
Any photos available to post??????? I have seen several (ok at least a couple rods shot out of mls no harm except embarassment and sore shoulders!
I did it once too expect i had a lower powder charge of 90gr RS and a 385gr great plains conical. Talk about some recoil with an aluminum ramrod!
Always possible the guy was trying to shoot smokeless in it too as most newbies are out of contact with what you can shoot in such and such rifle.
-
"Once rifled barrels were accepted as being part of traditional muzzle loading, the door was opened and history was made. Why should anyone be reactionary and say that anything should be the way it was? Does anyone in their right mind advocate returning to slavery since that was the way it originally was in the U.S., or that women shouldn't vote?"
Man you have missed the boat so far you could take a long walk and not get your feet wet, that was about the pooerst thought out bunch of irrelevant BS put forth to justify something which does not belong in a particular part of the hunting arena I have ever heard.
-
Hey you guys,don't pick on cripples and retards!! (Inline shooters)hehehe
-
Pre-1840 is where most restrictions are at for traditional muzzle loading at rendezvous. Be a little odd walking into rondy dressed in buckskins and carrying a scoped, camo inline with your powderhorn slung over your shoulder :D
-
Go ahead and try to run a shoot with inlines/traditional. I hope it works for you.
We have tried..offered nice prizes and even had a bbq and chili offering for chow. Lots of inlines sold locally. Our shoot was a month before deer season..not one inline shooter showed up. Not one.
After all the work we put into this , I said I would not do it again. IMO trying to woo inline shooters is a waste of time.
I remember you telling us about this Bob, when it took place. I also remember thinking that it just didn't surprise me in the least.
There has been talk of inviting the Inline crowd in to shoot with the traditionalist. When one thinks about it the Inline group has had since the 1980's to organize themselves into shooting groups like we traditionalist do, but to my knowledge they have failed to act on any venture in this direction.
Would a traditional muzzle loading group who shoots monthly invite those folks who shoot 30-06's, .270's, .243's, and so on to take part in a monthly muzzle loading match using their modern cartridge firearms? I don't think so,,, so why should we traditionalist invite the modern Inline shooters to take part. Afterall, a modern Inline is just that as discribed by Pedersoli in their letter about the modern inline not belonging in the same group as traditionalist.
I see no reason to extend a hand to these people who have little or no regard for the sport of muzzle loading and are buying cheep just to gut shoot a critter from two hundred yards or less just for the sake of extending their hunting season. This alone IMHO doesn't speak very highly if at all about their mind set.
-
One of the underlying philosophies is that ML seasons wee for a "primitive" weapon. I have always argued that they were for a "historical" weapon. A world of difference. I was there when we met with MNDNR officials getting the ML seaons and attended a couple of meetings. Mostly the ML shooters wanted to be able to rendezvous with friends out in the woods. In MN the ML season is held after the regular firearms season. When shooters thought that it would be an earlier season ML's were selling like hotcakes. They were commonly TC Hawkens and their clones. And the folks didn't know how to make them go bang. Knight came along and advertized "enjoy the special seasons with out the hassle". In another words, enjoy the ML season without using a ML. Funny thing is that a large number of traditionalists hunt with family and hunt in the regular season like myself. Most buy the inlines to hunt the extra season. One of the irritating things about modern developments is that the users thing they deserve the same recognition as the ones using the proper equipment. Compound bow shooters got very upset when Pope and Young banned bows with more than 65% let off. Same with ML hunters that think a trophy taken with a inline is the same as with a flintlock. Actually I find it irritating even if it isn't a book animal. As to the extra "power" and range of inlines, buy a Pedersoli Gibbs rifle. It will kick the $#@* out any inline with their modern Sabot loads, etc. They are a joke. A silly comprimise between a true slug rifle like the ones Ned Roberts wrote about and the round ball rifles.
DP
-
Hernando Sportsman Club, Hernando County Florida. I was not there when it happened. A range officer told me about it when I uncased a BP target rifle. It was about 2-3 weeks ago, the day before I was there. From what I was told the fellow got involved in conversation with a friend during the loading process, then proceeded to totally destroy his gun, some of his face and right forearm.
Any photos available to post??????? I have seen several (ok at least a couple rods shot out of mls no harm except embarassment and sore shoulders!
No photos, sorry. I did see the stains on the concrete and bench if that helps. There was no doubt that somebody got hurt there.
-
Well, onto other subjects within the discussion:
I've argued with the "in" crowd on the point of ballistics and therein comes the first clue. They are almost uniformly are found to be disciples of velocity, a dogma sold by marketing types from Manhattan for a great many decades. In general they do not understand ballistic foundations or even know the difference between the three primary disciplines. Discussion with them of Whitworths, slug guns, Perry, Lowe or Billinghurst is a fools errand. Forget about Polecat Porter too.
No, they cannot be hooked by knowledge. The only path I see is experience, that being the first time they actually sit down and shoot a flinter or caplock 3-5 times at paper or perhaps a tin can...then find out by demonstration that such arms are as easy to clean as their Knight and perhaps easier than their-cough-smokeless thing...or easier? One cannot argue against dogma for it is the strongest faith of all. One must demonstrate.
What can they find in this process? Perhaps that a longer sight radius makes the fine bead very precise, even in offhand shooting. Or that the balance of traditional arms is superior for the field. Ease and simplicity of loading, reliability, even the oft times lighter weight. My flinter weighs 7#4, a fair bit less than some of the inlines and it is far more amenable to carry and handle. Maybe with a little coaching they will find they are more capable than they once thought, and when that happens you have a convert. Last year at deer camp I let 5 grown men of vast experience (in their minds) shoot at an 8" bull at 50 yards on their hind feet. None had ever fired a flinter. They ALL hit the bull. One said he could not have done that with his .270, a few others agreed, reflecting on their ability, not his. Well, maybe that too, but.....
Now there is one thing crosses my mind regarding a previous post and that would be the subject of rifling. Rifling is not a new invention at all and dates back to the 15th century. It had telling effect on the field of battle over 200 years ago. Other odd factoids about rifling....
*Rifled weapons are still proscribe by law in many circumstances and locations.
*Rifling does not double the effective range of anything.
*The M1A2 is smoothbore equipped.
*There is a substantial difference in accuracy potential between a smoothbore and rifled gun, but when using round balls there is not a great deal of practical difference in effective range if one evaluates the matter on the basis of exterior ballistics. Not that any of you would, but the "in" crowd might...
*If you load a left handed twist muzzle loader in the Southern Hemisphere and shoot it, the trajectory has half the drop as a right hand twist rifle. (I actually heard that once at the range. Yep, the speaker was explaining this to a friend as he loaded his.....inline.)
*Back in the '50s it was illegal to hunt big game in Florida with anything other than a shotgun. Rifled shotguns had yet to be invented as I recall. Such circumstances still exist in some areas of some states.
It's partly the gun....but mostly the jerk behind the trigger.
Well, that is all....again.
-
This thread is nearly torn!! :-X
My original intent was to show how the typical in line and user took care (misused) his rifle and how lousy he or it shot although all the fancy scopes, sand bags, shooting bench, bullets, large target close in was/were used. :)
Well, Roger, I for one think he posted a pretty good group for a smoothbore shooting conicals!!
-
There is a very good, and simple reason why the inline shooters aren't out there on the range shooting. It's called recoil. Most of those rifles weigh about 6 lb. and they tend to shoot (because of the current hype) about 120 to 150 gr. equivalents of powder, a 400+ gr. conical or bullet or a 275 + gr. bullet in a sabot. Even with a recoil pad on the stock, most inexperienced shooters are willing to call it quits by half a dozen shots. Not only do most the of inlines slap you on the face but many, like Knight 85's, rap your thumb with the cocking piece - it's necessary to wear a glove - and bruise your knuckle from hitting the back of the trigger guard. So after about 6 shots, the guys decide that muzzleloaders are generally unpleasant to shoot. Combine that with the need to clean the rifle after shooting and a few industry sponsored a**h**** who are actually trying to get states to outlaw patched round balls as somehow inadequate, well you know the story.
The group of people we need to be cultivating aren't the adult inline shooters. We will get a few of them to come over if we keep offering to let them shoot our rifles at the range and maybe invite them to a shoot and lend them a spare rifle which we take home and clean. The group we need to cultivate are the kids. Sponsor a black powder shooting day at the range for kids only. Have lots of guys there to work with them, have black powder shotguns for them to shoot. Have some of the reenactors around to do hawk and knife throwing. Keep it safe but keep it simple. Maybe let them shoot an overloaded inline after they've had fun shooting a flinter or nice perc. rifle. That's how we'll get converts.
Tom