AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Curtis on October 31, 2011, 06:55:58 AM
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I have finally completed the Carolina gun, or "Type G" English trade gun that I started this June at the NMLRA gun building seminar. For those who would like to see pics from the class, here is a link to my original posting last June: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16971.msg159067#msg159067 The gun is based on the "Wilson" gun.
This is my second completed gun, and my first build from a blank. As I am a beginning builder aspiring to improve my work I invite any comments and constructive criticism. I am not particularly looking for "Only a moron would patina a perfectly new gun" comments but if that's all you got I have broad shoulders! I was originally finishing this as a gun "in the white" but was inspired by the artistry of works from Roy Stroh, Mike Brooks, Jud Brennan and others. It was fun experimenting with various patinas, no chlorine bleach was used and no laboratory animals were harmed by the experimentation's. :D
With the exception of the barrel, lock, bolts, and rear sight, all components of the gun were hand made. The barrel lugs and sights are dovetailed like the original Carolina guns. The butt plate, serpent, thumb piece and trigger guard are cut and shaped from sheet brass. The square nails were hand cut from steel stock, and the trigger cold forged from steel. The barrel channel and ramrod groove are hand cut, and the wood was scraped to a finish and not sanded. The ramrod is Osage Orange and was hand split, worked down from a wrist size split with a draw knife, spokeshaves and some occasional assistance from a rasp to about thumb size. The ramrod was then shaped and tapered using one of Acer's (Thomas Curran) excellent ramrod scrapers. My engraving is kind of sad, but fortunately most trade guns of this type were fairly crudely engraved.
The lock is a RE Davis, the cock and top jaw are castings from Jack Brooks, the rear sight is a Jack Brooks casting. The barrel is a Getz custom 46" type G barrel.
I have blabbed enough, so now for some pictures.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi120.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo177%2Fgonzomann_2007%2FCarolina%2520Gun%2FPA290356.jpg&hash=58f536741a7fed0a57997994433afdb2a8e6a735)
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I am interested in hearing your comments, thanks for taking a look. More photos here: http://s120.photobucket.com/albums/o177/gonzomann_2007/Carolina%20Gun/?start=all
Curtis
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Put me in the "like it a lot categority". Very coool.
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You may be your own worst critic. As for me, I think it looks great, except move the rear sight forward for my 'experienced' eyes. I think the finish you used overall helps set it off. Great wood!
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Really super and beautiful, it is great to see the photos. Thanks for showing your craftsmanship. Keep up the good work. As for the sight, it really is very much too close for old eyes, but it is exactly as the originals and is in the the historically correct position. To my 60+ eyes almost any rear sight now looks like a brown cotton ball anyway - thats why I now like smoothbores with no rear sight at all.
Years ago I made one like yours, entirely hand made lock - stock - barrel. It was used in the movie "George Washington" MGM 1986 with Barry Bostwick, James Mason, Patty Duke Astin. The gun was carried by the Christopher Gist character (Lloyd Bridges) but he was not allowed to shoot it in the filming. Hollywood types would never clean it afterwards.
Jim Everett
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I like it, can't find anything to pick on. Why hedge apple for a ram rod?
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I like it a lot. My only concern would be the direction of the grain in the wrist. I don't care much for the ramrod. I very much like the treatment on the metal. What did you use to patina the lock and barrel?
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Super fine job. The ramrod looks like a hand split, strong but not straight ,which is the way my hand splits usually turn out. My question is how wide did you make the butt plate?
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I like it and you get extra credit for doing all the inletting (barrel etc). I'd think of the ramrod as a native or back-country replacement. It had to happen that a ramrod broke in the wilderness sometimes. Off topic, wondering what wood is correct for Euro-made guns?
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I really appreciate your comment, guys. Bill and Mike, I have admired your guns since I became interested in building - and Mike, your tutorial was a valuable resource for me when would get stumped on how to do something, such as fashioning the trigger guard.
I guestimated the rear sight placement based on a couple of barrels excavated here in Missouri from the site of some Osage Indian villages. I decided on hedge apple (Osage Orange) because I was trying to capture what a local may have used to replace a broken ramrod, and if it works for a bow it should hold up as a ramrod.
The patina on the lock and barrel was a rust brown using a home made ferric chloride solution, rubbed back with scoth brite, 400 grit sandpaper, steel wool and a wire brush, and a 50 gallon drum of elbow grease. Here is a pic of the barrel getting seasoned: (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi120.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo177%2Fgonzomann_2007%2FCarolina%2520Gun%2Fhangingbarrel.jpg&hash=8591c497b9308e06ced777e4a121af14400cf559)
Curtis
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Yes indeed I like it too. Great color,finish and very unique. Smylee
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Rich, the wood is English walnut. If my research is correct many of the Carolina guns were either English walnut or beech.
You all should have seen the ramrod before I "straightened" it. ;)
Here is a pic of the original split:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi120.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo177%2Fgonzomann_2007%2FCarolina%2520Gun%2FPA290493.jpg&hash=33780baad698a65bd06b247c6b37723259b1aaba)
Curtis
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Nice gun. You did a good job I think.
Ya. That osage orange is crooked wood.
I've got miles of it cut for bow staves. So much I even used it to make tent poles :/
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Really nice job Curtis!!! I like the way the walnut gives the gun a very natural "camo" look. The ramrod looks like it has a painfull droop to it ;).
Darrin
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i don't know much about historical correctness and period correctness but it looks cool to me. Im just starting my first build and hoping mine turns out that good. P.S. i envy you guys with access to osage orange, been wanting to make some self bows but all i got is a couple osage staves that might make a bow if im lucky. Nice rifle.
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curtis
i'm glad to see your finished rifle,i really like what you've done it looks great to me, keep up the great work, maybe sometime you could show me how to make and sharpen a graver
paul
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Very gun and very nice work. The wood figure is perfect for this one. Job well done !!!
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I'm glad you found my tutorial helpfull, that's just the way I build them as it's easiest for me, others may do things differently. I like your ram rod, all the original rods I have seen were crooked as a dogs hind leg!
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Thats just awesome what you've done with the project. I think you pulled off the patina just perfectly. It is not over done. You know you will never have to worry about the ram rod falling out. I cant believe you got it as straight as you did. I keep getting the urge to start on my fowler project with all you guys posting your finished projects. I would love to take out after turkeys with one. Let us know how it shoots.
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curtis
i'm glad to see your finished rifle,i really like what you've done it looks great to me, keep up the great work, maybe sometime you could show me how to make and sharpen a graver
paul
Paul, maybe when we get together we can have a few beers first, then I might be able to convince you I actually know how to sharpen a graver! ;D
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I'm glad you found my tutorial helpfull, that's just the way I build them as it's easiest for me, others may do things differently. I like your ram rod, all the original rods I have seen were crooked as a dogs hind leg!
Mike, it is a fantastic thing that you have taken the time to make the tutorials you have done for the sake of sharing knowlelge. You should know your efforts are appreciated and at least some of us can actually learn from them!
Curtis
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Thats just awesome what you've done with the project. I think you pulled off the patina just perfectly. It is not over done. You know you will never have to worry about the ram rod falling out. I cant believe you got it as straight as you did. I keep getting the urge to start on my fowler project with all you guys posting your finished projects. I would love to take out after turkeys with one. Let us know how it shoots.
Dave - I have shot it about a dozen times with 5 1/2 bird shot, 00 buckshot, and the two combined just for fun. It seemed to group fairly close to the point of aim. The patina on the ramrod is mostly from black powder residue acquired during use. I got some .62 Caliber round balls the other day and I hope to try them this weekend, if I do I will post some pics.
I was at a festival in Rocheport Missouri a few weeks back and talked to a bowyer who was working with Osage Orange. I asked him if he had any tricks to straighten out the kinks, and he said sometimes he uses a heat gun on the wood till it gets good and hot, then clamps it in a vice until it cools. It works pretty well as far as my experience goes!
Curtis
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Really nice job Curtis!!! I like the way the walnut gives the gun a very natural "camo" look. The ramrod looks like it has a painfull droop to it ;).
Darrin
Darrin, that is because the belled tip is so heavy..... ::) I can't wait to see how yours turned out!
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You may be your own worst critic. As for me, I think it looks great, except move the rear sight forward for my 'experienced' eyes. I think the finish you used overall helps set it off. Great wood!
Gene,
I own a Jack Brooks Type G tradegun and when I first received the gun I too thought, how in the heck am I going to use this rear sight. Well, after a little run time with the sight I found out that it works great, and I have 56 year old eyes that have went through cataract surgery. The sight actually works like a peep sight, and once you get used to it that U shape will suck the front sight right down to the bottom center of the sight and your sight picture is clear as a bell. Those old timers knew what they were doing.
Dave
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Curtis, I love it!!! Beautiful gun!! The patina is great and the story to go with it is good too. Can't wait to see your next one!
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Nice gun. My only concern is the wood grain in the wrist.
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Awesome! Looks great...
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I think it looks great English walnut is a beautiful wood;the patina on the
metal and wood is just right, did you use "pyrographic" effecys on the wood? The wrist line is a thing of beauty, adds a sense of refinement,
it silms down the blockier butt. My eyes see a very nice piece of art and
one to be proud of.
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I'll start by saying I know NOTHING about "Carolina" guns but I'm going to go WAY out on a limb here, especially since both Bill Shipman and Mike Brooks have commented without mentioning the wrist line, but, to my untrained eye, the wrist line doesn't look quite right. It seems to me that the wrist line, as it flows through the buttstock, would look better if it more closely followed the belly of the butt rather than curving /converging. The way it is it looks as if the wrist, were it to continue, would come to a point just before the butt plate and as such, goes against the flow. As I said, I know NOTHING about Carolina guns so take this with a block of salt. The only other thing that my untrained neophyte eye noticed was that the rear point on the side plate panel doesn't quite flow as my eye says it should. It appears as if the last 3/16 to 1/4" of the panel (as it come to a point) is 'bent' upward and would flow better with perhaps +-1/16" less wood left on the last +-1/4" of the the top line to eliminate the slight upcurve and perhaps +-1/8" more on the last +-3/32" of the bottom line to eliminate the somewhat abrupt curve in that last +-3/16". I'm quite certain that I'm wrong in my observations but that's how I see it. It is a great gun overall and you should be very pleased with it. Thanks for sharing.
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I want to say thanks again to all the comments, all are appreciated! I would like to mention David Rase's ideas on the rear sight are dead on. (no pun intended)
Woodburner - no pyrographics on the wood, the "soiled" effects were achieved by black tempra paint powder. Some was sprinkled on wet finish, some was mixed with finish and applied with an artist's brush. Either method it was rubbed back with fine steel wool and denim. The paint powder actually gives a dimensional effect. The finish was two coates of linseed oil followed by six or so of Chambers oil finish.
Cody - your comments on the contour of the wrist are correct, you are not so far out on that limb! The diminishing curve was a product of my mind's eye, likely an artistic notion, that is not true to the originals. I struggled considerably with the wrist termination and will endeavor to make the next gun more historically correct. As far as the side panel is concerned.... I'm not quite sure of what idea you are trying to convey but I appreciate you taking the time to comment.
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I know this is a contemporary board where a lot of liberties are taken but it appears to me that you have a pretty good interpration of a Type G. Remember the G is a general type that was made by several different makers over several years of time span. The Museum of the Fur Trade has a new book out (135dollars) which has a few type G,s in it and it shows several with different Cal.bbl.legnth ect. A very good book for a trade gun reference I,m going to do a type G and if it turns as good as yours I,l be a big smiley face.L. Joe
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As far as the side panel is concerned.... I'm not quite sure of what idea you are trying to convey but I appreciate you taking the time to comment.
Try this, put a piece of paper along the the bottom of the panel in this picture starting where the curve straightens out and heads toward the rear point. You will see that the line makes an abrupt turn just 2/26" or so just before it reaches the point which raises the point. If you put that piece of paper along the top of the panel to the point, there is just a sliver of wood that curves up about 1/4" before the line reaches the point which also raises the point. If these two lines were carried syraighter to the point the point would be a bit lower on the wrist and the panel would flow into the wrist better..........IMO ;D
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Great job on your Type G!
;)
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I guess this makes you a Carolina Fan of at least a TarHeel?
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Let me first say that only a moron would.........oh wait, nevermind! Sorry, I couldn't resist. I missed this back in October when you posted it. Very cool! I don't know anything about this type gun, but I like it a lot. Really like the crooked osage ramrod. I've got a couple of longbows that would match it pretty well.
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Cody - I get what you are saying now. Your comment would be dead on with a rifle, however the trade guns were quick built bottom of the barrel get it done and make profit kind of guns.
J1776 and GHall - thanks for the good words!
Dannybb55 - ;D
I took the Type G deer hunting several days during rifle and muzzle loader season this year. I never had a chance to shoot a deer with it, however I did take a pot shot at a coyote trotting through the woods at about 125 yards. I missed of course but couldn't pass it up. ::)
Curtis
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Where do I find a ruler in 26ths of an inch?
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Congratulations on a job well done! Any trade gun enthusiast would be proud to carry that gun. The only criticism I have is, as Micah noted, the grain flow of the wood in the wrist makes the stock weak at that point. You might want to consider installing a steel rod through the wrist for reinforcement against splitting.