AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: eagle24 on February 07, 2012, 12:02:10 AM
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What height are your benches for building rifles. I am setting up my newly vacant shop for building rifles. I have 2 solid door slabs for bench tops and plan to build them free standing (not against a wall). Trying to decide what height to make them and whether I want to build them the same heights. I will mount a pair of parrot vices on one bench. Any suggestions?
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My bench is 40" high.
I also made my top with 2 X 4s glued together side to side. This gave me an heavy table top so vibrations were minimized. I then added stops for rests, and I have my power head for my engraving set up on the front left hand side. I am a Lefty so it works for me. My engraving vise fits in a fitting. I use the GRS system. The Benchmate, Engraving ball, etc.. Everything is compact.
The weight of the table top makes a large difference.
I really like it.
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Mr Hall ,
That is a good question .
My new and improved shop has a new built -in bench height of 49'' and a parrot style vice installed on the top corner from Grizzly tools.It is tall enough to work off of standing up which is how I prefer to work a stock blank down .
It improved productivity and is better for my work style ergonomically.
I regret not making a taller bench years ago but I was trying to save money with shorter 4x4 legs .
My old ''door'' bench was closer to 38'' and has been relegated to other duties.
Make it as tall as you need to .
Best of luck with your project ,
Stuart
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Being vertical challenged my bench top is 37" and the top of my vice is 11" above that. I can engrave and carve comfortably in its current position.
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I am 6'1" tall and I made mine at about 40" high, but most of the actual work area is at vise top level or about 48", at the top of the pattern makers vise.
Will you stand or sit? I prefer to stand for most work.
You will work best at a bench height matched to your height. My shop would be tough for someone too much shorter.
You never want to get too short so as to have to bend your head down and tuck your chin!
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The main bench I work at has a vise that is height adjustable. It is mounted on a 2 3/4" steel pin that extends through heavy steel bushings that lock it in place and allow for adjustment. For heavy work, I like it lower. For finer work I like it higher. What ever the bench set-up you have, it should be heavy and stable. If it is free standing, considerable weight is required. I see some free standing benches that appear to be very light weight. The bench should not move even with heavy agresive work.
Jim
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I would say that it is dependant on your build. Recommend belly button height. ;D
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It's kind of like blacksmithing, where the height of the anvil is set at the knuckles of the smith when he is standing straight with his arms at his side and hands at a slight curl.
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I didn't think about build/height. Guess the same bench height for different folks might not work to well. I'll probably start with the bench I am going to mount the parrot vices on and build it a little on the high side so I can cut the legs down and adust if needed.
Jim,
The tops for these benches are solid core birch door slabs that weigh around 100lbs. On the main inletting bench, I was thinking about building a trough/shelf down low underneath the bench and storing my steel in it. That would give even more weight to that bench. If I have to, I can drill the floor of my shop and anchor them down, but would prefer not to. I need to look into modifying the parrot vices so they are adjustable. I think I could do that and I like the idea of being able to adjust the height.
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Free standing benches have to be very substantial to keep down vibration and movement.
I like them screwed to a wall.
Mine are so covered with tools right now that pictures would be embarrassing.
I have a vise mounted on a Wilton Powerarm work positioner for standing and a vise mounted direct to a bench for mostly sitting.
I don't think I could build guns without a Powerarm. Good tools cost but the Powerarm is 30+ years old so its only cost me about 5-6 dollars a year.
I use Brownell's plastic soft jaws, the green/blue ones for metal a LOT. The last forever and are a GREAT product. The blue pair shown is about a year old now. I have a pair that are 30 years old and very well used that I still have on the vise I use the most. If the get dirty/oily wash with alcohol. Get cut up and hold chips? sand them down with a belt sander.
They seem to be impervious to anything but fire and maybe Acetone.
Heavy work is done on a big old 6" vise I bought when I was a kid. Marked "England" this was back when Coast to Coast stores handled European made stuff.
Bench tops are 2" lumber with a plywood/chipboard sheet to level it then Formica glued on that.
I do need a LOT more drawers under the benches though.
Bar stools bought cheap from yard sales make good chairs for the shop. When they wear down find more at another yard sale.
Dan
Powerarm on corner of 32" high bench. I set at this bench when using the engraving ball.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FGunsmithing%2FPistol%2520Checkering%2FP1050480.jpg&hash=881048a1253ab6ee229d54bfba4d5536f04a88c4)
Vise on the Bench with supports. This bench is 34" high.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FGunsmithing%2FP1020600.jpg&hash=6f449a827b9f10ba68be8156076ad788a15e3ace)
Brownell's soft jaws for metal
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FGunsmithing%2FP1050440.jpg&hash=2d85f2ef43b455c1cf8c42524d498b7f7239af97)
30+ year old Brownell's soft jaws for metal
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FGunsmithing%2FP1000249.jpg&hash=f91a776628620edcb00ed4ea15c32a0ca44f82fa)
The Aluminum side is handy too
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FGunsmithing%2FP1020588.jpg&hash=2d49b5a228603d34d215bfd8969a6a7c549b0beb)
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One of the most important aspects of a work shop is "Comfort". With that a worker is most productive...
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Lots of good advise here, may I interject something that works for me, consider mounting ALL your new benches on locking casters, this make reconfiguring the shop much easier and can be done solo instead of pleading with a buddy to come over and help move your 5 ton bench later on when you acquire another new floor mounted power tool that your trying to find wall space for, if you decide to use casters, spend the money to buy decent ones rated for the weight of said item to be mounted on, nothing worse then wrestling with under rated casters on the bottom of your wood lathe bench or any other machine or bench, ( don't ask me how I know this), good luck, would like to see what you come up with when your finished with the new furniture!
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Here is a photo of the set-up I primarily use. The table is a very heavy cast iron lay-out table. I believe it weighs in the neighborhood of 1200 pounds! The vise is mounted on the pin I previously described and I have made a ball and socket system that allows the vise position to be manipulated. The vise is a Brownells version of the versa-vise that has had the front jaw modified such that it rotates on a big shoulder bolt. I also have a big machinest vise mounted to a separate table for heavier work.
Now, I don't think something this big and heavy is required, but as mentioned before, something that doesn't move even with heavy work is what you are after. Casters are a good idea, but I would worry that they would allow potential movement and wobble. I want as little movement as possible.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi124.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp24%2Fjkibler1%2Funtitled.jpg&hash=e923b4c28ea48e4d96c5d837e0ca132e000f1f12)
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1200 lbs :o You probably don't bump that around much. I'm guessing when I get one of these tables built it will weigh around 200 lbs with the vices mounted. I do some welding and blacksmithing and have a good bit of steel in my shop. Mostly bar stock and round stock. I thought I would build a trough under the table and will probably keep around 200 lbs of steel in it, so that would give me around a 400 lb bench as well as a better center of gravity. The setup you have on your vice would work for the vices I have as well. I'll give that some thought and fabricate some sort of adjustable system for my vices.
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That's how Jim's carving is so nice...his work doesn't jump around. . . . . at all.
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When working on a gun, I really can't think of any time I have had the gun laying on the bench, allways in the vise, might want to keep this in mind. chuck
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Some artists work on leather covered bench tops, no vises used at all for their carving.
There is no 'one way' in this game. It's always interesting to me to see all the variety in tools and styles. Keep up the good work, everyone.
Tom
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Some artists work on leather covered bench tops, no vises used at all for their carving.
There is no 'one way' in this game. It's always interesting to me to see all the variety in tools and styles. Keep up the good work, everyone.
Tom
Perhaps I'm being a little too argumentative, but I will give you my thoughts on this. Working alone and being largely self-taught, a wide variety of techniques are naturally going to develop for the gunbuilder today. But, there are often methods that are most efficient and produce the best results. These are the methods that developed and were refined over the hundreds of years when these guns were produced as a necessary usefull item and in an efficient manner. These are the techniques to attempt to home in on in my view. They work best, and produce results that are appropriate to the product being created.
Jim
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I've always been told the work bench top should be at least waist high / top of the belt line. This is where mine is and it has always worked for me.
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........ there are often methods that are most efficient and produce the best results. These are the methods that developed and were refined over the hundreds of years when these guns were produced as a necessary usefull item and in an efficient manner. These are the techniques to attempt to home in on in my view. They work best, and produce results that are appropriate to the product being created.
Jim
"Best" is at best a subjective term. You state that your methods echo those developed over hundreds of years but perhaps it would be hard to argue that JP Beck or Andrew Verner or George Schroyer or Isaac Berlin had 1200 pound benches with ball vises on them. Your methods and approaches allow for the most accurate, precise work but are clearly not required for producing fine Kentucky rifles in the manner and style in which originals were made, no matter how strongly you state it.
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My benchtop is 40" hi and 46" at the top of vises is my working height. Weighs around 100 lbs. You can walk all the way around it wich is a big advantage and timesaver.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi203.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa43%2FREXTHOMAS2%2FMISC%2F100_0373.jpg&hash=40e2a4dbeaf951cb5755733be7e5c0feaafdd00b)
I have a heavier 5" vise mounted on a heavy Oak stump.
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Rich,
The point of the text you quoted was to drive home the idea that although there are some variations in techniques that work well, there is often a technique or techniques that are most efficient and produce quality results. It wasn't specifically related to the size or weight of my workbench. In a specific sense, I guess you could say it was related to holding work steady while carving, but as I said in my previous post, you don't need a 1200 pound bench to keep your work steady.
I've taught many classes and I've seen techniques used that have been shown on this website. As I said, since builders are mostly self-taught, some of the techniques which develop are not the most efficient and and don't often produce great results. I have worked around and with builders who are accomplished and although there may be some variations in methods, I've found they often sort of converge. That's what I'm saying.
I know today, we love the idea that nothing is wrong and that every idea is good etc. but I don't think that is necessarily a good approach. I will repeat, there are methods that are best for a job or operation. Any particular operation may have a couple alternatives that work well, but there are a host of other approaches that are a bad choice.
As I said before, I think it is no coincidence that methods found to work best often mimic those that were used in the past. Time may have passed, but we're still people wood is still wood etc. The significanct thing to consider regarding period work is that it had to be done efficiently. This is very often overlooked, especially in hobby builders today.
Further, when I speak of gunbuilding methods and techniques of the past, I don't restrict my view to American work.
In regards to my work being more finely finshed or precise when compared to most American work, you are probably right. This speaks more toward my personality than anything else. This means that I spend extra time working a background of carving or work a metal surface down further with a finer file etc. It boils down to taking more time and care. If I were to try to mimic less refined work, my techniqes would not significantly change. I would work faster and perhaps stop with coarser tools. This doesn't mean I would choose to hold the work piece rather than clampling it in a vice, for example.
What I won't agree with you about is the idea that since the American longrifle is sometimes relatively coarsely finished that less than professional methods should be considered or advocated. Look at Mark Silver's work in recent times for example. He has chosen to produce work that is more coarsely finished and perhaps less precise than that from earlier in his career. He still works in a professional manner using commonly accepted techniques. Ask him whether these techniqes change significantly whether he is producing an American Longrifle or a finely finished English Fowling piece. The answer you will get is that more time is spent, more care (focus attention etc.) is given and surfaces are taken to a finer finish using tools appropriate to this task, but the basic techniques remain the same.
After all this writing, I surely hope you understand the point of my previous post. If your still not buying this let me know. I will keep trying to explain as I think it is a very important point to be made.
Jim
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Jim, you are exactly right. Any time you try to master any craft there are certain practices and principals that were long ago established and with good reason. I also agree with you about the idea that nothing is wrong and every idea is good. Most ideas are manure and only a few are pearls. Sad fact of life, but it's true and I don't think it will ever change, no matter how much time goes by.
In my opinion you need a steady tough bench if you want to be a craftsman, but something else will do if you are a hobbyist.
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........ there are often methods that are most efficient and produce the best results. These are the methods that developed and were refined over the hundreds of years when these guns were produced as a necessary usefull item and in an efficient manner. These are the techniques to attempt to home in on in my view. They work best, and produce results that are appropriate to the product being created.
Jim
"Best" is at best a subjective term. You state that your methods echo those developed over hundreds of years but perhaps it would be hard to argue that JP Beck or Andrew Verner or George Schroyer or Isaac Berlin had 1200 pound benches with ball vises on them. Your methods and approaches allow for the most accurate, precise work but are clearly not required for producing fine Kentucky rifles in the manner and style in which originals were made, no matter how strongly you state it.
Rich,
Another question... When did I say my methods echo those developed over hundreds of years? Also, how can you speak to my methods when you know very little if anything about them? Seems you are making assumptions to fit a point you are trying to make.
Jim
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We have a wide range of members participating here, from VERY accomplished, talented and practiced builder who are functioning at a full-time professional level to guys just starting out with very limited funds, facilities and resources. I am truly envious of your guys who have dedicated shops full of wonderful tools-----and the time and talents to use them properly. Someday----someday--- ::)
Its wonderful to see what truly professional modern ALR builders have for tools and equipment and I can give us all ideas to improve what we do have.
I'd be interested in seeing what us "hobby-builders" guys who do not have dedicated workshops use.
I have to use a "portable" bench in my living room. I'm single so I don't have to clean up EVERY day but I have to do so every once on a while or the cat complains. I have a small drill press and belt grinder in a cramped corner of the basement but neither the room or conditions to make a dedicated workshop down there.
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Jim, you state that best practices developed over hundreds of years are most efficient (precise, accurate, whatever qualities comprise best for you), and you attempt to do best work, I thought it would logically follow that you are using techniques developed over hundreds of years. Perhaps I am not following it completely but I do grasp that you believe there are "best ways" and that you advocate their use. Good enough, one viewpoint taken and understood. I appreciate diversity; otherwise I could not simultaneously appreciate the work of Colonial Williamsburg, the Woodbury school boys, and Monte Mandarino, or the high quality British work of the 18th century and the "ugly bird head patchbox rifle" at the same time. Makes for interesting philosophical discussions quite far from the concrete world of benches! But I do agree, in addition to having fun discussing the philosophy of building longrifles, that a solid bench is a great thing to have.
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As a hobby I make longrifles, use them and latter sell them to finance another build. My workbench is 44 inches from floor and top of vice is four inches above that. I have a foam pad on the floor that compresses to about one inch thick. I dont have to stoop very much when working at that level. Smylee
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My bench is solid and all of my tools are either good or above average qualty. With one small exception,all my machinery is old American from Michigan,Pennsylvania or Ohio. The one exception is a small Chinese made drill press that I bought to make a wad cutter from and it hasn't been used for years.
I don't worry about methods and have my own and am oriented to RESULTS. Being retired I keep no schedule,refuse to be pressured and what gets done,gets done. Anything else will have to wait. Negotiating with someone over price is something I don't do either. I was showing one of my "4 pin" locks at Friendship about three years ago and quoted $375 for it and was asked if I would consider an offer. My answer was "only if it's for more". Benchcrafted locks of that type are not common and I see no need to put a dumping price on one.
Bob Roller
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Rich,
It would be innacurate to say "my methods echo those from the past". Some do, but as a blanket statement this would not be appropriate. For example as you pointed out, "JP Beck or Andrew Verner or George Schroyer or Isaac Berlin had 1200 pound benches with ball vises on them". I choose my words carefully and don't like it when they are twisted, especially in an attempt to make a point. And please take note, I said previously that a bench this heavy is not necessary for stability and to produce good work.
Yes, I use lights, some power tools, a cast iron bench, etc. that are not period appropriate. Some advances have been made since the 18th century and I have no problem taking advantage of them. The point that I have been working hard to make is that many basic techniques that work well today also by no coincidence worked well in the period. Every method is not good and not everybody should get a ribbon for trying in my world! Further, you will find a general concensus in basic techniques and approaches amongst widely respected builders today. I think you get my point. No need to further subject everybody else to this nonsense.
DWS,
Yes, I understand your point. We all have to make due with the best we have. The good thing is that not a great deal is an absolute necesity. I started building guns in a tiny room that was maybe 6'x8' or less, in my parents basement. The bench T. Caster showed might be a good example for someone working under limiting circumstances. From appearances, much lighter and less rigid than I would want, but undoubtably works as evidenced by the guns T. Caster has built.
Jim
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I am remodeling a bonus room over the garage into a gunshop. I don't think the floor will handle a 1200 lb bench. ;D ;
I have a 120 lb bench and I plan to put a box of sandbags under it and anchor it to the studs in the wall. Up until now I have not had a really firm bench except the crowded on out in the cold/hot garage. I really hear what is being said about a solid work surface. I also think it always wise to listen to others ideas.... new or old. Ideas are not practices though... after many trials and with guidance from those who generally get better results I agree that their are usually a few or even one "Best Practice" I wish I had a coach handy to help me learn those best practices faster....So far this site has been a big help along with the basic load of books. Someday in the not too distant future I will get to attend some of the great classes being taught at Jim Chamber's, WKU, Friendship and Conner's Prairie and the like...... Jerry Rice has invited me to come watch him engrave..... So that is one near term step.
These discussions which sometimes a re tough are very helpful to a neophyte hobbyist like me.... Iron Sharpens Iron as the good book says!
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Rich,
The bench T. Caster showed might be a good example for someone working under limiting circumstances. From appearances, much lighter and less rigid than I would want, but undoubtably works as evidenced by the guns T. Caster has built.
Jim
INDUBITABLY SO....THANK YOU,
I don't use this because of limiting circumstances though. I had the other kind of workbench with one large vise & a large rest arm, but found it lacking. It's out in the pole barn now and gets used for gunbuilding, nevermore.
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Measure the distance from he floor to your belt. That is the best height I think.
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Can't help with the height but something that you could consider in your new shop is splashing around as much white paint as possible. Might just be that we have very short days here during inside project season but I have found that no matter how much light I provide myself bare wood, metal, concrete just soaks it up. A coat of non gloss latex over every surface has made everything easier with fewer 'how did that happen?(s)' and fewer 'fewer where the heck is...?(s).
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2F14c40ew.jpg&hash=bc80a2267c48d6114702a0837c76dd7f515025fa)
I got the idea to build one of these after seeing one at Tip Curtis store at Friendship fall shoot. I built mine heavy duty, I used all 2x4,( his had some 1x4 on it) At first I called it a work bench for guns, but an old friend of mine advised me a work bench has 4 legs and this was called a work horse ( 2 legs) ???
Anyway, BEST thing I ever used to build a gun on, Its light enough you can move it where you need it, need better light, move it there or clamp a light on it, don't need it now, move it out of the way. One of the best things for me is I can take it outside to work on a gun in the sun, beats the h@$$ out of a picnic table. 3- 2x4x8, 1- 1x4x4, 1-3/8 steel rod, 2- 3/8 nuts, 1-3/8 washer, 8- small pan head screws, brass plate- 1/6x1x ?, 1- 3/8 knob, small box of 3in. sheet rock screw, picked up the leather at Friendship for 2.00. Cost right at $30.00. ;D
This gun is near finished and I went to my heavy bench twice to use the vise, once to install the breach plug and once to make the trigger, EVERYTHING else has been done on the work horse. Its 36in. tall and 33in. long AL
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I never saw a two-legged horse before! Until now. ;D
I think this could be a horse, too. I use it for gunbuild demos here and there at the County Faire.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FWorkbench%2FDSC_9223.jpg&hash=500fc75139df758ca710f91e2eb514e8aef7ef47)
ropes used as windlasses to tension up the legs; while not very heavy, it's quite rigid.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FWorkbench%2FDSC_9242.jpg&hash=38cbc213b673a1fbad371d408d8c636587af9379)
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2F14c40ew.jpg&hash=bc80a2267c48d6114702a0837c76dd7f515025fa)
I got the idea to build one of these after seeing one at Tip Curtis store at Friendship fall shoot. I built mine heavy duty, I used all 2x4,( his had some 1x4 on it) At first I called it a work bench for guns, but an old friend of mine advised me a work bench has 4 legs and this was called a work horse ( 2 legs) ???
Anyway, BEST thing I ever used to build a gun on, Its light enough you can move it where you need it, need better light, move it there or clamp a light on it, don't need it now, move it out of the way. One of the best things for me is I can take it outside to work on a gun in the sun, beats the h@$$ out of a picnic table. 3- 2x4x8, 1- 1x4x4, 1-3/8 steel rod, 2- 3/8 nuts, 1-3/8 washer, 8- small pan head screws, brass plate- 1/6x1x ?, 1- 3/8 knob, small box of 3in. sheet rock screw, picked up the leather at Friendship for 2.00. Cost right at $30.00. ;D
This gun is near finished and I went to my heavy bench twice to use the vise, once to install the breach plug and once to make the trigger, EVERYTHING else has been done on the work horse. Its 36in. tall and 33in. long AL
Could we see shots from other angels?
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This works for me - I also have 10 foot work bench anchored to the wall. Neither one are going to "go" anywhere without some serious muscle.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy15%2FBERKUTA%2FP1000552.jpg&hash=adfc22d14fdc1e050aa76961b0ad38cb7353434d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy15%2FBERKUTA%2FP1000546.jpg&hash=b916ef15e3709a68895e8c9bd80413ab502f4cd7)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy15%2FBERKUTA%2FP1000554.jpg&hash=c8672836ec9a7a662f87411fb8980e57e43e3de9)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy15%2FBERKUTA%2FP1000545.jpg&hash=a76014d58a8f004059ffd382c42ca91e7f1eb003)
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This is why my wife is supporting me in converting the bonus room over the garage into a gunshop.....
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi24.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc18%2FDrTimBoone%2FMy%2520workbench%2FDSC00843.jpg&hash=49eadeecb29ec284f10b48db94e01b9cd5461628)
From Tip Curtis.
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Every time I shoot an archery tournament at Briarfield Iron Works (the site of the Alabama state M/L championships) I can't resist picking up the abundant lead from the rifle range. One can easily pick up 45# in less than an hour, most of it soft lead used by civil war renactors and M/L tournament shooters.
I had the lead stacked in a corner but have since used it to anchor one of the tables I build on. I have the combined weight 91# of round hunks like in the picture, 2, 25 bags of lead shot and 41 C-clamps that I store on a bar below the table top. The table is very stable and won't move.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv181%2Fekrewson%2F91pounds.jpg&hash=b2c42e06d7bfc02a0e37ad1e6e0bf4d809025919)
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Eric,
You gonna be at the traditional shoot next weekend? I'm thinking about going if I can get away from the store. Haven't shot my longbow since Oct, but shouldn't make a lot of difference in just having a good time.
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If the weather is nice I will be there. We plan to pull the camper down on Wednesday.
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Dogshirt, sorry it took so long to get back with your request, I have been busy with family and friends. Not very good pic's but I think they will do.
If you think you are really interested in building one like this and need help with the clamp, let me know I will draw it out for you. AL
http://oi40.tinypic.com/2ppinpt.jpg
http://oi42.tinypic.com/w7fst1.jpg