AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Shop Made Tools => Topic started by: david50 on December 11, 2008, 01:36:03 AM
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not trying to put Mr. Wood out of buisness or anything but has anyone coned a barrel anyway other than with a ready-made tool.
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Made my own work up off the Ideas frome a old Muzzel Blast.
David Veith
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could you give some details
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Peter Alexander shows his process in his video series. He uses a tool that he bought.
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i have carefully used a dremel and needle files and the rifles shoot better than i can. i also used a hardwood dowel and tapered it in a lathe. then used double sided tape to hold sandpaper.
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did you mean this with coned muzzle
(https://img514.imageshack.us/img514/2977/muzzlehl2.jpg) or did you asked for a crowned one?
the muzzle above was altered with a round corundgrinder and finished with a ball & valve grindig paste.
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Or do you me deep with fancy treatment:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi469.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr60%2Fjwfilipski%2Fcone.jpg&hash=510cfa689df4954b00575d5ff176e07e26b93caa)
for a good job you need a good tool.
If you don't own a lath see Joe Wood .... centering during the cutting is very important.
The article that Alexander did was also based on a well made tool. The cone depth is secondary to the symmetry of the cone. The fancy stuff is then just "Fluff".
Jim
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I made a set of three tools to recrown my GM and spanish/italian barrels. All of those barrels tended to tear up patches on loading.
I apply all three of these to the muzzle in no particular order with sandpaper attached with double sided tape. The two nuts locked together form a fit to a .50 cal and by wrapping tape around the nuts they can be fitted to a .54.
I use these by hand, not with a drill or any other power tool. They are not perfectly concentric but by working the tool back and forth in the muzzle and rotating the barrel frequently, the end product is concentric. I've done this to a .50 and .54 so far with no harm to accuracy, easier loading and improved patch survival.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmikealee.home.mindspring.com%2Fimages%2FCrowntools%2FDSCN5844.JPG&hash=fdcdda2af2aca9338ef251afdd34982edb04d484)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmikealee.home.mindspring.com%2Fimages%2FCrowntools%2FDSCN5846.JPG&hash=f175a591b8172240f68f39a999438efb051e61e6)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmikealee.home.mindspring.com%2Fimages%2FCrowntools%2FDSCN5847.JPG&hash=8ff84b72074829107a4e63c12f54f2ab2e847b7b)
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looks more complicated than i have the talent to attempt. by the way JWFilipski thats really nice, did you do it yourself
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David
It's not complicated when using a coning tool & takes about 1 hr or so to get to that stage including the fancy filing.
That's one of a brace of Jaegers ( note flush muzzle caps) I did this past summer for some members of a German Jaeger reenacting group.
Jim
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If I can do it, it's automatically not complicated!!
Just drill a hole as close to center as possible, cut the head off a 1/4 or 5/32 bolt, glue it in the hole with JB weld, put a circle on the wood dowell that will acheive the desired angle, chuck the bolt into your hand drill and turn it down up against the rotating drum in the drill press.
These are more for crowning than coning but making one with a steeper angle would get you closer to coning.
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Coning tools I made a while back. One is designed after the Peter Alexander article. The other (top one in the photo), of a more modern design worked much, much better.
(https://preview.ibb.co/nD2Fhx/Coningreamer1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/b2jT2x)
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interesting! in the photos that have been posted it does'nt look as though the coning goes that deep into the muzzle. i thought it would be deeper,maybe half the diamiter of the ball.
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David The coning tools I use are for a gentle taper to about 2" to 3" deep. It is a gentle taper not steep by any means. When you start the ball in by thumb pressure you just follow with the ramrod and the patch /ball combo compresses slowly into the bore. Very nice...... even with tight patch ball combos
Jim
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Why doesn't someone put together a tutorial of all the ways to cone a muzzle? This topic is discussed at least as much and often as patch lubes.
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i'd sure like to see one on the subject
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A tutorial would be a good idea. While some have the idea that coning is a 30 or 40 degree "lip" at the beginning of the muzzle, the coning I want is much deeper, well over an inch. It creates an easier pressure fit of a ball, thus getting rid of the need for a short starter.
It also has quite a history: I have found several antique rifles with this deep coning, which perhaps explains why short starters are seldom referred to in old books.
I just took the easy way out and ordered a set from Joe Wood. I'd be glad to post results when they arrive and I get some time to play with them.
David L
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I have never made a coning tool to cone a barrel. Never had the lathe to make it til recently & now have all the calibers to com=ne a multitude of them, so just use one of Joe Woods tools.
Takes me about 2 to 3 hrs to do a coned muzzle from start to finsh with one of Joe's coning tools. About half of that time is making the lil pads & putting the double sided tape on them & etc. If ya push it too hard the paper tears & then the glue gets all wadded up & it takes longer to clean the glue off the tool than to cone th muzzle. Also I start with 220 & get it most of the way done, then go to 320, then 600, and finish with 1000 paper. Maybe I put more time into it than some, but they come out nice & slick as a whistle & and are coned about 3" down. You can easily push a greased patched roundball into one past what your thumb will push it & start it with a rod rather than a short starter......... IF ........... you are using a extremely tight combo. If I am shooting target for groups, I use a tighter ball/patch combo & still use a sshort starter. But for deer hunting & 1'5" groups at 50 yards, the smaller ball loads fine & easily & does the job on the deer.
;)
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Or do you me deep with fancy treatment:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi469.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr60%2Fjwfilipski%2Fcone.jpg&hash=510cfa689df4954b00575d5ff176e07e26b93caa)
for a good job you need a good tool.
If you don't own a lath see Joe Wood .... centering during the cutting is very important.
The article that Alexander did was also based on a well made tool. The cone depth is secondary to the symmetry of the cone. The fancy stuff is then just "Fluff".
Jim
I shoot with a couple of guys that have file cut the 'fluff' into their rifle muzzles. They are top notch shooters and the only drawback I noticed was that the file cuts seem to rust quickly and a lot and seems as if they do not bother to clean the rust out of the file cuts. I think it is a nice touch and you are constantly looking at it whilst shooting the old girl! I use a circle cutter and small dot and circle punches on to the face of the muzzle for the same reason. Doesn't hurt the shootin! ;) I do not know if those fellows have coned the muzzles or not!
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Seems like some guys confuse crowning and coning, and use the words interchangeably. Coning is a deep taper that looks like a smoothbore at the muzzle, and crowning is a little (or a lot) 40-45 degree chamfer at the muzzle.
JWF, what you show just looks like a 1/16" crown with the fancy "Hiney" treatment filed in.
I have the same filings on my Beck and never experienced any rusting after 4 yrs. of use. Of course I use a greasy lubed patch, not liquid.
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Caster makes a good point. Coning is NOT crowning: It's a much deeper and less severe taper. The tools dave2c showed, long and narrow, are more the idea. A good coning will extend a couple of inches into the barrel and is barely perceptible from the end of the bore.
I have a couple of the Joe Woods tools in different calibers and highly recommend them. They make the process simple and straightforward and come with complete instructions. You couldn't go wrong buying one, if you want to see what a "real" cone is like.
David L
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Seems like some guys confuse crowning and coning, and use the words interchangeably. Coning is a deep taper that looks like a smoothbore at the muzzle, and crowning is a little (or a lot) 40-45 degree chamfer at the muzzle.
JWF, what you show just looks like a 1/16" crown with the fancy "Hiney" treatment filed in.
I have the same filings on my Beck and never experienced any rusting after 4 yrs. of use. Of course I use a greasy lubed patch, not liquid.
T.Caster No it does have a deep taper cone ( joe Wood's tool) but it was done on a barrel that had a wide machine crown. The coning tool was used until the lands were even with the groves then the hiney treatment!
Jim
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the websites for both Rice and Colerain barrel companies state that coning voids their warranties...Seeing as how I shoot one of each [plus Getz, Green River and others], I have been retiscent to cone my bores. I am not sure why they state that, but they do.
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the websites for both Rice and Colerain barrel companies state that coning voids their warranties...Seeing as how I shoot one of each [plus Getz, Green River and others], I have been retiscent to cone my bores. I am not sure why they state that, but they do.
Some just hack away to make them look weird. I have never seen a properly coned barrel ML "Ball" barrel shoot worse ( usually Better) then a stock crown. They are just protecting their Hineys from those few!
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Davec2,
I too have made a tool like your top one, the only part I would change on mine is the length of the bushing. I found the you can still get "misalignment" with the shorter bushing................[2" in length would make a great pilot]..........but to hard to make.
I did two barrels with mine, they turned out OK, but,..........I prefer the big Radius as a crown. If you do it right, you get a radius and a taper.
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More thoughts on cone design [lathe work]:
Make a pilot, [live or solid] , 2"s long, then a tapered cone .400-.600.
The tapered cone then becomes a tapered Gun Drill. Two sides radius, with opposite die the cutter.
I have made small carbide gun drills that work slick on hardened steel, so a tapered one made from drill rod and hardened should work too.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwebpages.charter.net%2Ffam-strick%2FGunDrill_1.jpg&hash=e37b5bdcf337ff53fb9caaa52230cfb7843b1923)
Just like Davec2s bottom picture, only with only 90 degrees removed, and a flat opposite the cutting edge.
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This is a coning tool I use. I wrap emery paper on the taper and on the end I mount the various spacers which match the caliber of the rifle I am coning. Works great.
http:// (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi118.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo81%2Fhootal%2FConingBox.jpg&hash=6a1b0161d88148221457b5435aca1c46549eb134)
Made a walnut case to store it in.
Hoot Al
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How much taper is there to the tool? It seems like it would be a slight amount, maybe .10" in 3 inches? LB
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How much taper is there to the tool? It seems like it would be a slight amount, maybe .10" in 3 inches? LB
I am querious what the taper is to these coning tools also?
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The longer the taper, the easier it is to load, and the worse your gun is going to shoot. I can see the advantage in the field for a coned muzzle. But on the target range, the coned muzzle is death to tight groups.
This is only opinion, so pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
I like a crown where the ball and patch combo is just flush with the end of the barrel when pressed in by thumb. Yes, I still use a starter to get the ball down. But this gun I use on the range, not in the woods. On a hunt gun, I'd go for fast loading with a minimum of tools.
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Thanks Acer.
I always wondered about how a long cone would affect target accuracy. Do you think the longer length cone allows the cone to be more out of line with the center of the bore?
Gus
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The longer the taper, the easier it is to load, and the worse your gun is going to shoot. I can see the advantage in the field for a coned muzzle. But on the target range, the coned muzzle is death to tight groups.
I have never seen a properly done "long coned" barrel effect accuracy even off the bench ( round ball). This holds true for all my guns. On one of my .54 cals it even tightened up the groups! I would not use it however for any elongated projectile shooting( what ever that is)
Jim
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I don't mean to start a heated discussion and wanted to point that out right away.
I have no experience with long cone muzzles on muzzleloaders, even on all the original rifles I've worked on for the U.S. International Muzzle Loading Team and members of foreign teams at the two World Championships I attended.
My experience with barrel crowns is mostlyy in modern rifles and that includes the highest levels of NM competition. On THE Marine Corps Rifle Team, we used to "touch up the crown" about every 400 to 600 rounds to ensure the best accuracy in NM Garands and M14's. We touched up the crown every time we did an inspection on the M40A1 sniper rifles as well.
"Touching up the crown" means we cut just enough to ensure the crown is uniform, smooth and just barely cuts into every land in the bore. I have a twelve flute, Carbide barrel crowning cutter made by Severence. I use it with different bore guides to ensure the cutter is cutting in agreement with the bore. I've done it on both round ball guns and minie' ball rifles.
On Muzzleloading rifles, I touch up the crown on my rifles every year at the end of shooting season to ensure it will be good the next time I use it. I've touched up or even cut the crown deeper on other muzzle loading rifles where the crown was off center. If the crown is off center or if the ends of the lands and grooves are not uniform, recutting the crown to center will improve the barrel's accuracy no matter if it is modern or muzzleloader.
So could the answer be if the long crown was not done correctly that it would decrease accuracy?
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I would say that if any crown (or cone)was not done correctly it would definately affect accuracy. I see no reason to recut the crown except when you have accuracy issues....Ed
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If I'm not mistaken "crowning" & "coning" are two different operations all together.
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If I'm not mistaken "crowning" & "coning" are two different operations all together.
Indeed they can be, though a "coning" tool can be made to do both operations at the same time.
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I mentioned this once before about the first gun I built. It had a 7/8" straight Douglas barrel in 45 cal. I did not have a
countersink, or anything to crown the muzzle. For those of you that remember the old Douglas barrels, they had some
info. stamped on the muzzle end, cal., etc., so you had to cut them off. I did that, squared it up with a file, then carefully
crowned the barrel with needlel files. I rounded the lands and grooves by hand, each one separately, but I am sure they
were not exactly the same. The gun shot real well, won a lot of stuff with it........so much for that "perfect" muzzle...
Don
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I'd call it champhering or at least crowning..... A machinist I'm not so, I champher the muzzle with a hand brace with a ball cutter attached. Barrel mounted vertically in bench vise. Kinda walk 'around' the job while working the brace. Then I use a brass ball with valve grinding compound same way. Then use 600 emory paper on same brass ball to smooth her up.
My ol tyme Getz 15/16 .45 has had the brass ball and compound treatment 2 times maybe 3 and I polished her about twice. (not sure its a long time) She shoots if I do my part. I try her out once and a while....... ;)
Now, I notice that the reference was to coning which I do not do, sorry I got off on a tangent. All keyed up about shooting the Getz/Singer chunk shoot this Saturday...... ;D