AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: WadePatton on January 10, 2013, 07:48:26 PM
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here is that PRB's can be loaded and fired continuously, given a the proper bore/ball/patch combination with a proper lube.
Do we keep the secret or share it?
It seems that the rest of the world is convinced that BP needs wiping all the time. It's slightly entertaining to read all the concoctions and procedures and such. One guy admits taking more than one gun to the range, shooting each one until it won't load, then going home and cleaning 'em all.
I was looking up info and bumped into some "otherworld" threads WRT BP and subs-and wiping.
How confusing would it be for these folks to see someone load and shoot 10-30-50 rounds w/o a wipe?
Sure, not everybody makes it work but many do:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15255.0
And also, previously on ALR:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6875.0
(rained in again) :P
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Wade, we've discussed this subject dozens of times on this forum. I did not check out the threads you indicated, but loading all day without having to wipe is no secret.
I think the first prerequisite to shooting without cleaning, is to have a good bore. If the bore is frosted or pitted, for whatever reason, it will accumulate fouling that in short order will require wiping before reloading. If it is in perfect shape, it has the potential to be loaded all day without having to be cleaned.
Secondly, the patch/ball/lube combination must be correct for this kind of shooting. The ball should be pure lead, and five to ten thousandths of an inch smaller than the bore, in a rifle. The patch must be of sufficient thickness to engrave its weave onto the lead during the loading sequence. If it engraves its weave onto the ball, it will also be filling the grooves in the bore. A patch of this thickness will at the same time carry enough lubricant to clean ALL of the fouling left by the previous shot, from the muzzle to the powder charge. The result of this is that you are shooting that ball out of a perfectly clean bore every time, all day long.
Thirdly, a load like this will require either a short starter, or a technique where two hands on a short section of the ramrod can press the ball/patch into the muzzle. Dan Phariss demonstrated this once in a short series of pics, or a video...can't recall which it was. This requires some strength and determination, but it is not difficult to do. Once the ball is pressed into the bore, the ramrod sends it down to the charge in 10" - 12" sections, so as not to break the rod. It is easier to seat a ball with this combination of patch and lube, than the same ball with a thin ineffective patch/lube running over accumulated fouling.
Whether this loading technique is historically correct is not the question. If historically hunters or target shooters loaded combinations that could be thumb started, they too would have had to clean between shots.
There - the secret's out!
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That's the way I always shoot: till I run out of ammo. Actually sometimes I will wipe the bore every 15 to 20 rounds but not always even then.
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All thse who think .32 and smaller have to be wiped constantly need to re-read that stuff. One "secret" for the wee bores is the ramrod. The wood rod in my .25 is decorative.
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Taylor, you miss my gist. But I appreciate your effort in posting.
Sure, you and I and the rest _here_ know. I quote those threads just to show that all the details have been hashed out here before-so those who don't know can learn how to leave the wiping behind.
But I bumped into some of the ROW (Rest of World) recently and they have no idea. NONE at all. I know we're not trying to keep it a secret. Just funny how all the other modes of operation persist.
I just wonder how a wiper would respond if he shot next to a non-wiper who demonstrated a higher rate of accurate fire?
There are none so blind... i reckon.
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I used to be an habitual bore wiper because that's what informed opinion at the time recommended. (I've now seen the light!) Since I've switched to liquid patch lubes*, at least when the temperature is above freezing, I rarely wipe the bore and can't see where it's had a negative effect on accuracy for my present rifles + 1 trade gun. Btw, I once owned a .50cal. Dixie Tenn. Mt. rifle that shot more accurately if the bore was wiped after each shot.
*saliva, commercial moose milk, 1 Ballistol : 6 or 7 H20, Friendship Speed Juice, Taylor's own super secret recipe.
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We shoot here all winter long, as long as the temperature stays above - 12 C. I can't remember what that is in Foreignheat - sorry. I use pure neatsfoot oil for hunting in that weather, and for the trail shoot too. I've come to discard the antifreeze and murphy's oil soap, because the alcohol sucks the heat out of my fingers in quick order. I use precut round patches saturated with the oil, in a lozenge tin kept on the inside pocket of my capote. That's the only way I can keep my fingers from going numb. Funny, it didn't do that forty years ago.
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We shoot here all winter long, as long as the temperature stays above - 12 C. I can't remember what that is in Foreignheat - sorry. I use pure neatsfoot oil for hunting in that weather, and for the trail shoot too. I've come to discard the antifreeze and murphy's oil soap, because the alcohol sucks the heat out of my fingers in quick order. I use precut round patches saturated with the oil, in a lozenge tin kept on the inside pocket of my capote. That's the only way I can keep my fingers from going numb. Funny, it didn't do that forty years ago.
$#*!, you think you get numb now, wait a couple or few years ::)
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Roger, I appreciate your honesty, if not your optimism.
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temperature stays above - 12 C. I can't remember what that is in Foreignheat -
here let me translate for us without a dual-scale thermometer: -12C = 10.4 F
which i find tolerable in the absence of a breeze. but i'm way down here and i only get to see that a few time per year if at all.
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Pls. don't translate that as a complaint. I love this place, and it's weather.
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Part of my point is that we're not selling anything.
That any Jim Bob or Tom who puts his face on a SUB powder IS selling something and he has to make claims and promises to sell it.
The two claims i see are "more power" and "less fouling" and the kids go on and on and on about the less fouling.
As if fouling were a big problem. But then it IS a big problem if you Don't Know how to deal with it. And they don't so there you go, a bunch of guys that hate the nasty old, hard to source, BP because it (get this) _smells bad_ and leaves boxcar loads of fouling in your barrel every time you pull the trigger.
No one "out there" has any clue as to the horrible things SUB powder does to metal. I quit any association with Subs purely on those grounds (and two pitted bbls).
But the enlightened (most of us here) know that BP fouling doesn't have to be a problem.
It's a shame that more folks don't learn these things. It has taken me years to discover this. Sometimes this interweb helps, but also this is where i found all the comical commentary on the wiping and concoctions and such that, i'm afraid -MOST- other barrel stuffers think is par for the course.
But then I don't suppose we want everybody knowing...sometimes a crowd changes the game.
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Pls. don't translate that as a complaint. I love this place, and it's weather.
not at all. population density pretty much determines my tolerance for anywhere. I do appreciate a good solid frozen over months of mush. here comes the rain again...
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I tried it for the second time yesterday. Tried it a year ago shooting a 16 smoothbore in a match on a clear fall day and that barrel got so crudded up I couldn't even load a bare ball by the end of it. Yesterday I was using a .45 rifle and wonder lube patches, on a damp, 50 degree (Farenheit), foggy day and had great results. In fact the guys with me that were running cleaning patches kept having misfires/clatches and I never did.
Most of our shooters always clean between shots, as I typcially have always done, but it seemed to work well yesterday. Weather maybe?
One thing that worries me though, is the possibility of an ember on a quick reload, damp cleaning patches always took care of that worry for me. Opinions?
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embers, easy they make you follow the first rule of all gun safety, muzzle control. if an ember is going to light something it's going to be loose powder flowing into the bbl.
Also that with a no-wipe shooting combo, there's less crud in the bbl to hold a hot spot.
And yes, the humidity is a big factor. Clear Fall days are quite dry as a rule and that, according to my reading, is going to test your combination.
still on the sidelines...
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Not quite Wade. I've seen an ember fire a charge twice in my time, and both happened during seating the ball with the rod. It seems you can pour loose powder onto a smoldering ember and all's fine until you add the hydraulic effect of the ball coming down onto it. In both cases the injury sustained was from gas cutting - the charge leaving the muzzle. Ramrod launched like a rocket and ball - who knows where. Luckily, as the rod is being suddenly launched the driving hand is blown clear enough of the muzzle to avoid the exiting ball. But the gases leave an awful wound - stitches required. You might want to consider that the next time you and your buds try to take a cannon emplacement from the front. Take out the guy with the linstock first.
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The ramrod pushing the ball blows air by the ember.......bang! May be why the old guys used to blow down the bore.. to burn out or blow the embers out the touch hole???
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Dr.Tim; I guess I'm one of those old guys that have the bad habit of blowing down the Bbl. But after over 40 years of shooting black powder off and on. I can say I have never had a problem. Sorry, old habits are hard to break. Al
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Blowing down the bore puts 100 % humidity down there, which does two things - well three then. 1st: softens fouling 2nd: extinguishes a potential ember, and 3rd: puts you in dire jeopardy by putting your body over the muzzle. Al, I've done it all my adult life as well, but don't anymore. I could tell you some stories...
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Blowing ACROSS the muzzle to create a vacuum seems to be an
acceptable way to evacuate the bore of smoke. I do it and have for
years.There is no way a just fired muzzle loader can fire again but
I still won't blow directly into the muzzle.
Bob Roller
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I have to tell you the story. I have this short 'video' permanently etched in my brain.
It happened about 1980 or so. A group of us were on the line taking turns shooting at a gong at 200 yards. Wilf's turn rolled around, and he stepped to the post and capped his rifle. He aimed, and fired. Only the cap went off. As quick as thought, he dropped the butt to the ground and blew down the barrel. It happened and was over, without disaster, thankfully, before anyone could react. He thought blowing down the barrel would show if it was loaded, or not, I guess. It was. Or, he was so used to blowing down the bore, that having fired the rifle, it was the next thing to do. It could have been ...unthinkable!
I for one, now adhere to the practice of not blowing down the bore.
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ahhh, (and yes i've gas-cut myself, but not badly, (cylinder gap))
safe in theory, but a bad habit to develop.
i'm old enough to consider those i'd leave behind.
thanks for the education. and yes, i failed to consider the fanning of the ember with air trapped ahead of the ball.
IS there a correlation between these ember-cidents and how fouled the bore was?
I'd like to hang on to the notion that a wipe-free loading combination would be safest in this regard. that the lingering ember would be something more likely found in a "5-shots wiper" (where the shooter wipes or can't load the 6th) Where after 3 or 4 shots, the accumulated fouling* in the bore has more places to hang an ember.
*yes this is what we strive to avoid, but seems to be commonplace and now shows a bit of a safety issue.
Is there truth in that notion?
please re-direct me if there has been a good discussion of this already.
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ahhh, (and yes i've gas-cut myself, but not badly, (cylinder gap))
safe in theory, but a bad habit to develop.
i'm old enough to consider those i'd leave behind.
thanks for the education. and yes, i failed to consider the fanning of the ember with air trapped ahead of the ball.
IS there a correlation between these ember-cidents and how fouled the bore was?
I'd like to hang on to the notion that a wipe-free loading combination would be safest in this regard. that the lingering ember would be something more likely found in a "5-shots wiper" (where the shooter wipes or can't load the 6th) Where after 3 or 4 shots, the accumulated fouling* in the bore has more places to hang an ember.
*yes this is what we strive to avoid, but seems to be commonplace and now shows a bit of a safety issue.
Is there truth in that notion?
please re-direct me if there has been a good discussion of this already.
Your last question::: Yes there has been...At Length! LOOOOONG but important.
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I have to tell you the story. I have this short 'video' permanently etched in my brain.
It happened about 1980 or so. A group of us were on the line taking turns shooting at a gong at 200 yards. Wilf's turn rolled around, and he stepped to the post and capped his rifle. He aimed, and fired. Only the cap went off. As quick as thought, he dropped the butt to the ground and blew down the barrel. It happened and was over, without disaster, thankfully, before anyone could react. He thought blowing down the barrel would show if it was loaded, or not, I guess. It was. Or, he was so used to blowing down the bore, that having fired the rifle, it was the next thing to do. It could have been ...unthinkable!
I for one, now adhere to the practice of not blowing down the bore.
Thanks Taylor::: I have seen that done once with a Bess and twice with cussin rifles Got Mit Us!
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Sorry guys,
99% of the time, I will wipe to eliminate embers. I keep a smaller caliber bore brush with a patch on it with a little oil on it to knock the embers out with out leaving too much oil in the bore. I do this when hunting as well which gives me a few more seconds to get my wits about what is going on, where the deer went an was it hit well enough, etc...
There have been a couple of times where I did not have the brush and patch and was very leery of putting more powder down the tube. Just the way I was trained in 4H as a kid. We used to return the rifle to the bench and clean for the next student. Habit.
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okay then, no need for rehash here.
SO
back to NO WIPING. and my understanding of it.
That with a oil/spit saturated patch for walking and other match shoots, is not a difficult combination to arrive at (for any given bore).
BUT that when using a hunting grease/tallow, 'tis a bit more difficult. Say like squirrel hunting where one should have multiples of shots. To this end, I am concerned with my deer tallow concoction. It has been written that beeswax helps it "clean up". Anyone care to speak to this. (Yes I have read every word of every Tallow discussion that search will uncover here.) thanks!
Is paper cartridges the way to go to fend off those marauding bushybritches?
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As a Trainer of instructors for the NMLRA, I have to present the material in accordance with their safety doctrine. Two issues come into this all the time. We teach the use of a dampened patch to wipe between shots for the purpose of extinguishing embers. We also teach not to blow down the barrel as it creates the situations such a cited by Taylor earlier and which has resulted in death at a range some time ago (I am told). Since I also shoot a little BPCR I know the benefit of a breath or two through the bore to soften fouling. So I suggest if you want to blow through the bore you should consider using a blow tube made of a piece of flexible tubing sufficiently long to allow you to keep your head away from the muzzle. As to not wiping and experiencing an ember igniting the charge, I would suggest you work the ramrod without having your hand over the end of it. I do know personally of an incident where an individual was saved any injury because the rod passed through his grip and knocked his hand away in time to allow the ball and gasses to pass by harmlessly.
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we got all offa track here. suggest new threads for the splinters if anyone wants to.
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If you dont wipe between shots and still load easy and shoot great, what would a patch look like if you ran one down between shots? Would it come out clean?
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If you dont wipe between shots and still load easy and shoot great, what would a patch look like if you ran one down between shots? Would it come out clean?
"Sorta" clean -- just minor fouling from one shot, BUT there's a bunch of crud below the ball seat that doesn't harm anything unless it is messed with. Some people don't go any further down with wiping, to avoid pushing fouling into the breach and vent, others clean the gun entirely between rounds. In hot, humid weather, I have better luck not wiping: sometimes fouling gets pushed down and builds up in the breach, causing ignition problems. If I do wipe, I usually use both sides of a patch and pick the vent aggressively before loading. If you are going to wipe thoroughly all the way down, wipe every time. Waiting 5 or 10 shots seems reasonable, but in my experience (and that's all I have to offer) the fouling at the breech is often heavy enough by then to be a problem, whereas it isn't that bad for just one shot.
One thing Taylor said earlier that is really important (and I hope I'm not misrepresenting him in this paraphrase): the bore needs to be smooth and in good condition and the load has to be good and snug to allow shooting with out wiping. If you can't reload easily without wiping, either the bore is rough or your load is too loose causing excess fouling.
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If you dont wipe between shots and still load easy and shoot great, what would a patch look like if you ran one down between shots? Would it come out clean?
not at all, it's going to pick up the very same fouling that your PRB will pick up on the way to be seated. the trick is-that the PRB combo is tight enough (and the fouling soft enough) to get 99% of it. this crud sits atop the charge and gets mostly blown out by the next shot.
it may seem counter-intuitive before you really think about it. but done properly, each PRB wipes the bore of the previous shot, so it's not "no wipe" it's ONE wipe, not counting the "rewipe" of the obturated ball coming back out (getting that last 1%) when the charge is touched off.
shiny bore, big ball, thick patch, and "generous" radius and polish at the crown are key elements i am told.
so long as these things come together, there is no cumulative effect, or build up from continuous shooting. which is double dang dee dapper dan dandy in my book and in those who shoot with Daryl and Taylor and 'em.
fix me if i'm wrong.
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this is how it's done, vid starts right after balls started.
from other thread (after not wiping ~50 shots):
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2Fth_ImportedPhotos00001.jpg&hash=95ddf7f9c52de4957197b171e36ede71ac9f8e0b) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v638/DarylS/?action=view¤t=ImportedPhotos00001.flv)
We had both shot off close to 50 shots without wiping when this video was taken. I see no loading difficulty with either gun, mine a .45 rifle, and Hatchet Jack's a 20 bore smoothie. This is normal loading practise for both of us - we were in no hurry, but focused on loading for the camera.
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Gentlemen,
In the interest of Science I'd like to see a ten-shot string shot without wiping at 60 yards from a rest so we could compare it to what we are doing at our Cody turkey matches.
This dog is never too old to learn a new trick.
Steve
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Agree but suggest a 10 shot string at 100 yds with a heavy bench gun and scope on a calm day.
Just trying to take out the variables.
TC
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I think we're starting to get "out of context". Obviously a snug prb with a good lube does take out much of the fouling with each shot. I know this because I've wiped after one shot and then after 20 with little change in the amount of fouling on the patch. While I doubt 99% of the fouling is removed with each shot, a great deal of it IS removed. Grease lubes, in my experience, don't remove fouling. Using everything from Crisco to Natural Lube 1000, I've been lucky to get three reloads without rod-breaking seating force. With spit, Black Solve and especially Hoppes BP lube, the 20th prb goes down a easily as the first. Lubes such as these don't "gum up" like the greases. In the woods I always use NL 1000 for the first load. This way if I don't shoot I can leave loaded till the next time.
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It's not about bench shooting, it's about walking and shooting competitively and maybe "high target count" hunting.
seems that more fiddling is the way of the bench. ;D
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I'd rather not wipe between shot's. MY reason is because I put the touch hole right at the face of the breech plug,actually I have to cut a ''trench' in my plug for a "fire channel",so I'm ascared that I'll push some $#@* in front of my touch hole!
And the embers thing,I had a match lock once and was suprised when the linstock was put on the powder and it took some time to go off. A particle physicist Friend said there is a "Harenberg effect"(?) causing a "wall" of insulation between the heat source and the surface of the powder. What do I know. I fixed furniture for a living.
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Steve, you have a very good and interesting point. We shoot our trail - 50 to 80 shots without wiping, because it's a kind of hunting situation with each target, and wiping just has never been part of the regime. There has been no need. I, and Daryl in particular, is very much interested in the best accuracy a muzzle loading rifle can deliver, and you don't start to see any conclusive results until you get out to 50 yards and beyond.
When the snow has gone, and I can get to our bench (probably middle of May) I shall do a test to determine if wiping between shots improves the size of the group at 50 yards.
Please describe your method of wiping, so that I have a head start in that department, never having done so.
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not at all, it's going to pick up the very same fouling that your PRB will pick up on the way to be seated. the trick is-that the PRB combo is tight enough (and the fouling soft enough) to get 99% of it <snip>not counting the "rewipe" of the obturated ball coming back out (getting that last 1%) when the charge is touched off.
Um, no. You can show this by firing a shot, pulling the plug, running a patched ball through the bore, then running patches through the barrel. (I had to pull the plug to mic the bore anyhow, so figured "why not?" If you aren't already going to pull the plug, after loading you could run a patch on a tight jag down to the ball. ) A considerable amount of fouling--not "1%"--remains in the bore. But the issue is not, "removing all the fouling" so much as "having the bore the same from shot to shot."
Wiping the bore is a separate issue for many: it is done as a safety practice rather than to ease loading. I'm not aware of anyone who has had powder ignite during loading after wiping the bore (just as I am unaware of anyone who has had powder ignite during loading after blowing down the barrel).
From an accuracy perspective--if done after every shot, and in a consistent manner--wiping the bore should have little effect but it does introduce another variable. If load development and practice includes this additional variable, end accuracy should probably be similar. (I guess I'm saying that an accurate load can be developed using either approach: wiping or not wiping.)
The load I am currently using in my rifle was developed with a loading practice that includes blowing down the bore after each shot. If I shift to wiping between shots, at 100 yards the group enlarges slightly and the POI shifts several inches. At 100 yards, the increase in group size has a negligible effect when shooting offhand (I'm not a good enough offhand shot to notice), but the shift in POI will move me off a 4" circle.
As to Wade's original question, I kinda figure that if I'm aware of the loading practices of a neighboring shooter, I'm not concentrating enough on my own shooting.
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As to Wade's original question, I kinda figure that if I'm aware of the loading practices of a neighboring shooter, I'm not concentrating enough on my own shooting.
I'm alway's watching other guy's loading,as they watch me too. It's a saftey thing for me. But,they WILL NOT tell me if I dry ball though!,not that it ever happen's!
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Put a vent pick in the touch hole after each shot and you won't have to worry
about it getting plugged.
Bob Roller
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Put a vent pick in the touch hole after each shot and you won't have to worry
about it getting plugged.
Bob Roller
One more thing to think about. If I was cocidering wiping between shot's,your advice is spot on. I coned my muzzles to get rid of the short starter! :o by the way Bob,that lock you built me is awsome. Smooth and sparky! 8)
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D. Taylor,
My wiping technique is-
Wet patch (spit) down to breech, leave it set for about ten seconds then withdrawn slowly, no stroking up and down. New wet patch down to breech, withdraw, turn over to clean side, down to breech, withdraw. Dry patch down to breech, both sides. If I'm using one of those basically unreliable cap guns I snap a cap to dry the flash channel as one does not want to have a misfire with the crowd I shoot with. Then load as normal, taking care to not to "ram" the ball onto the powder.
I do think that wiping allows a better, more uniform seating of the ball onto the powder. Sometimes getting it the last few inches with with a fouled bore results in a hard seated ball...not good for consistent shooting.
The wipe/not wipe argument will rage on, no doubt. But I will make this observation...no one who does not wipe between shots has ever won one of our turkey match aggregates. Call me shallow, but when I go to a match, I go to win it. And...this is real heresy...I wipe between shots with my hunting rifles. Since the Blackfeet got the pox there's no need for large volumes of fire.
That last should pour a little gas on the fire...
Steve
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i missed some stuff, but my point wrt 99% is that
enough fouling is removed (pushed down and subsequently consumed/expelled) such that repeatedloading and firing without wiping is possible, apparently up to 50-80 or more shots.
such that there is no cumulative effect or a very small one. i care not what the number is--not in the least. but it has to be pretty good in order for the loading to continue for that many shots with no apparent change in bore condition-as felt by loading. this is not bench-rest, but is competitive.
If a wiper (or wipers) started dominating the matches where Taylor and Daryl shoot, then i'd bet the no-wipers would re-examine their practices.
no wonder the ROW still buys the snake oil :-\
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Taylor, you miss my gist. But I appreciate your effort in posting.
Sure, you and I and the rest _here_ know. I quote those threads just to show that all the details have been hashed out here before-so those who don't know can learn how to leave the wiping behind.
But I bumped into some of the ROW (Rest of World) recently and they have no idea. NONE at all. I know we're not trying to keep it a secret. Just funny how all the other modes of operation persist.
I just wonder how a wiper would respond if he shot next to a non-wiper who demonstrated a higher rate of accurate fire?
There are none so blind... i reckon.
The non wiper MIGHT shoot better with a water based patch lube. But MY bet is that ON PAPER, a wiped bore will out shoot the unwiped every time. IF the person operating the rifle is UNIFORM in his wiping technique and uses the right patch lube. A great many people shoot low precision matches. Steel plates and such. This is not the same as a rest match shot on paper targets. Shooting steel targets is a lot of fun. But loads that will win a match like this are not in the running in serious paper matchs.
In one of the links the poster was having problems with ballistol/water mix and Swiss. I suspect its the mineral oil in the lube that caused the ring. 3:1 is a VERY heavy oil load in the mix.
I shoot FFF in a 54, 90 gr. And use animal oil or tallow. It does not foul excessively and produces far less problems than 100 gr of FFF Goex did.
My 16 bore with 140 gr of FF Swiss fouls very little indeed. But I shoot this rifle with animal oils too. Its not a target gun.
This is another thing that some do not take into consideration. Hunting is not target shooting. The accuracy requirement and loading process is different.
If I were to use a water lube it would likely be water or a water soap mix.
I use water and WS oil mix to get the oil in the patches then let the water evaporate.
Its a modified petroleum oil I am sure but since I wipe every shot when using it there is no worry.
No you don't have to wipe every shot. But the guys I shoot against, if you want to do very well, you wipe.
Hunting or shooting at hit or miss steel plates is different than scoring ring targets and is way different than string measure which is the more precise way of scoring. So what the rifle is USED for will be one factor is determining how the rifle is loaded.
One other factor in not wiping and shooting long strings. There have been a number of accidents over the years and some people seriously injured from fouling build up in the breech. The first of these I read of was in the 1960s during the Nationals at Friendship when a pistol shooter shot the rod and ball through his wrist (or hand). Examination of the pistol found heavy fouling in the breech they held enough heat or an ember that lit the charge when rammed.
Its still happening. I don't shoot 50 rounds without wiping the breech out. I came to that conclusion when I read the account of the pistol shooter shooting himself.
Dan
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... This is not the same as a rest match shot on paper targets. Shooting steel targets is a lot of fun. But loads that will win a match like this are not in the running in serious paper matchs.
...
Dan
everybody is overcooking my original point.
that most of the whole world of BP shooting does not understand how simple "trails walk" type shooting CAN BE if one chooses to walk around and shoot offhand-competitively or not.
We are not the most of the BP world. nor are BR shooters.
that is all i has to say.
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Steve, you have a very good and interesting point. We shoot our trail - 50 to 80 shots without wiping, because it's a kind of hunting situation with each target, and wiping just has never been part of the regime. There has been no need. I, and Daryl in particular, is very much interested in the best accuracy a muzzle loading rifle can deliver, and you don't start to see any conclusive results until you get out to 50 yards and beyond.
When the snow has gone, and I can get to our bench (probably middle of May) I shall do a test to determine if wiping between shots improves the size of the group at 50 yards.
Please describe your method of wiping, so that I have a head start in that department, never having done so.
For reference I wipe with one wet patch, both sides and a dry one both sides. I shoot flint and unless the patches are too wet (or I forget the powder) I never have any ignition problems.
I use one of Tracks Military style worms as a jag in my 50 calibers, it is pretty loose in the bore with a diaper flannel patch. But the patch bunches up when withdrawn and cleans pretty well.
I wet the patches well ahead of time, at least the night before and take care they are not TOO wet. If I can squeeze much water from them they are too wet.
With WS oil the rifle will shoot through the same hole at 60 yards. But the SHOOTER being able to do this is something else. Starting to think I should have stocked for left hand...
Steve and I both use Swiss which fouls less in most rifles. I do feel some cake shooting 109 gr of FFF in the 50.
My experience has been that any fouling on the lands hurts accuracy. I found this out when doing 200 yard testing with a 54 some years back. It becomes increasingly noticeable as the range increases.
It may require lube tests to find the one that shoots the best when wiped.
Dan
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I enjoy this kind of discussion, as I am continually learning and trying for better accuracy. Thanks, Steve and Dan, for descriptions of your techniques.
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Even this old dog can learn new tricks!
Interesting discussion.
Hessian
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I enjoy this kind of discussion, as I am continually learning and trying for better accuracy. Thanks, Steve and Dan, for descriptions of your techniques.
certainly as well. any learnin' is good learnin'. i know i learned some. i hope plenty others did to. no secrets. live and share. ;)
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I enjoy this kind of discussion, as I am continually learning and trying for better accuracy. Thanks, Steve and Dan, for descriptions of your techniques.
Ok young fella do you 'really' need better accuracy than you already have ?. I have a hunch you are simply nicely signing off the subject... ::) ???