AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Candle Snuffer on December 11, 2013, 07:35:25 PM
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I got my .40 caliber (Large Siler cap lock) chunk gun out this morning. Haven't shot it in at least 4 to 5 years, we just haven't held any "over the log" matches for awhile. Anyway, it has a .40 caliber 1"x42" - 1 in 48 twist Green Mountain Barrel.
I ran across this link in a search, here on ALR;
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11289.0
I'm debating whether or not to re-barrel to a larger caliber? Say .45 or .50 caliber.
The rifle (a curly maple half-stock) weighs 12-5/8 pounds, and I like the idea of getting 2000 fps (in that neighborhood with a 65 grain charge of 3fg in this .40, though I normally have just shot 55 grain charges when I used it during our matches. Now it's not a "true" chunk gun as we know today, as it does have a ramrod, and I made a strap on wood block for it (which I can't find at the moment), but it does shoot well off the blocks/log...
I guess what I'm throwing out here is,,, are the larger caliber chunk guns the way to go? Say .50 caliber and on up? After all, we're only talking 50 to 60 yards off the ground, and at my local Range where I've only shot it, the wind really doesn't seem to bother the flight of the ball much, shooting from the ground? Could be our high berms?
Any thoughts on the caliber's you chunk gunner's like best?
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Can't say why, but I have seen a number of .47 calibers.
Ez
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I have three that I use for chunk. #1 1&1/8 x 42 GM barrel flint 40. # 2 1&1/8 x 42 Rice 50 Perc. # 3 1" x 42 GM 40 Perc. They all shot clover leaf groups at 60 yds if the sun,wind and shooter have it together.
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Smylee,
What load's are you using in those Green Mountain .40 cal barrels?
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I use 65 gr. 3f swiss-395 or 400 ball-18/1000 patch
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I use 65 gr. 3f swiss-395 or 400 ball-18/1000 patch
Thank you. I'm going to kick my charge up 10 grains to the 65 grains and see what kind of results I get. I've been using a .395 Hornady ball with an .018 patch with that 55 grain 3fg Goex load. I didn't test any higher for fear of blowing the patch. I'll try some .400 balls as well. Thanks for the information.
Here I am with a foot of snow on the ground and I'm thinking over the log shooting... Well, at least I'll have a plan when I can get on the ground. :)
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Candle, your rifle sounds about ideal for this new game, table shooting.
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I started over the log shooting with a borrowed 40 caliber bill large barrel. I really liked it. After a time I had a fine Michigan barrel maker build up a 50 caliber under hammer using a Spidermatic barrel and a Bowers action. The 50 caliber cuts the wind much better than the 40. After all, it only makes sense since, it helps to whop up the 40 by 5 to 10 grains in a wind but it just wont stay with the 50 over all.
My son has taken up the sport, which of course means dad is probably going to build a new chunkgun . I have toyed with the idea of a smaller barrel on a smaller caliber trying to lose a little weight in the rifle as lugging the 30 pound gun back and forth to the line seemed a little less fun. Every year I just haven't made up my mind yet. I probably if I go smaller will go with a 45. I know there are some 48's out there, but you will find yourself molding all your balls. At any rate, that's my throw on the situation.
And Kermit might be correct weigh that chunk gun you've got and see how close to 13 pounds. I am just curious, if you could post an answer with a picture of the of the firearm. I'd like to see it.
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi289.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll240%2FJoethebowM%2F53f8480e-3133-46db-ac32-7f5f336d8dd3_zps3bdabefa.jpg&hash=ab5b2214c3e9cae541919e1861c8488116455fe2) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/JoethebowM/media/53f8480e-3133-46db-ac32-7f5f336d8dd3_zps3bdabefa.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi289.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll240%2FJoethebowM%2Fc5c02917-fba7-413e-9fcb-1bd4d97b5e66_zps43b7c1fe.jpg&hash=b68c6b9ed924b6e5a9333cd52c77bad544c82f44) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/JoethebowM/media/c5c02917-fba7-413e-9fcb-1bd4d97b5e66_zps43b7c1fe.jpg.html)
Here is the rifle. I intentionally left it bulky for weight. After getting the barrel, I used what parts I had laying around in my workshop to build this. I've always understood bulky was the way of the "chunk gunner's" rifle. The front sight under the hood is a brass blade. Dimensions are; .40cal x 1" x 42" GMB, Large Siler Cap Lock, 12-5/8 pounds... I can't find my wooden barrel block I made for it years ago. I would remove the ramrod and strap the block to the front of the barrel - just behind the front sight - using black Velcro. It'll show up somewhere - someday...
I've thought about our club doing a table shoot in 2014. It looks like a lot of fun. Most our guys (and we're thinning out) really don't care to get on the ground to chunk shoot anymore. I'll admit, I'm mighty sore the next day after a chunk match and even a cross stick match. still, I do enjoy them both. Just wish more then myself and one other guy (Jim Potter) enjoyed these matches. :)
Here are two of the first 5 "shingle targets" I shot with this rifle many years ago. The shingle on the left netted me a fancy bottle of old time Maple Syrup, and the shingle on the right netted me $2.00... The rifle hasn't quite paid for itself just yet... ;D
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi289.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fll240%2FJoethebowM%2F9b13bdaa-c3c2-42eb-8ec1-2a447e0582d8_zpsea95c799.jpg&hash=d7bd8368f4695ac9ae7264f7de7f556574b15336) (http://s289.photobucket.com/user/JoethebowM/media/9b13bdaa-c3c2-42eb-8ec1-2a447e0582d8_zpsea95c799.jpg.html)
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I started out with a .40 cal flint long rifle I built and it did a fair job but got bit by the bug and built a halfstock with a .50 cal 1- 1/4" Bob Hoyt barrel and a homemade mule ear lock. Pretty massive and bulky gun, but lays still pretty good. It hits where you aim it, but for some reason with the exception of a couple of matches I never have been able to be as consistent with it as I would like. Maybe it's because I don't get to practice with it as much as I need to. So I've gone back to using my flint .40 and getting shorter strings. Everybody says that a bigger ball bucks the wind better, but I'm starting to wonder. We were shooting in a pretty good crosswind last month and I didn't see any more drift with the .40 than I do with my .50. My .40 is a GM 13/16 X42 with 1 in 48 twist. I shoot a .395 cast ball over 60 grs. fffg and a .018 ticking patch. My Hoyt barrel is taper bored .504 to .500 at the muzzle, 1 in63 twist. It is an excellent barrel but I need to spend way more time on the mat than I have been.
BTW, I'm shooting 80 grs. of ffg under a .500 cast ball and .018 patch in the .50.
TC, I'm not 100% sure about the bigger calibers being better or worse, someone who knows more than me will have to answer that. I've always been told that they are better for bucking wind. I do know that my shortest strings have been shot with a .40, some with the above mentioned flintlock and my best string was with a percussion with another .40 GM barrel. As for barrel length I agree that the longer the better at least as long as the load matches the length and the powder is being properly burned and the velocity is not being compromised by drag on the ball in a long barrel. A longer sight radius is good and if the barrel is supported as near the muzzle as possible any movement by the nut behind the butt will be minimal compared to a shorter gun or any length gun with the support nearer the breech. My own opinion is that a 4 foot barrel would be about ideal, but I don't have any real proof to back it up. I think the sight radius would be very workable, especially for older eyes where the rear sight would have to be farther forward and a moderate to slightly heavy powder charge would be fully consumed to get the best velocity for a midrange or large caliber. But that's my opinion and free, so you get what you pay for.
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For what its worth I had chunk gun stocked up by Karl Fisher around a Bowers under hammer action on a 48" DeHaas, .50 cal barrel. I was of the opinion that chunkers ought to traditionally be extra long and generally large calibered. But that idea could be all wrong too.
tca
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I've shot a .40 at the York for several years. I've debated moving up in caliber as well, but it seems like every time I think that, I'll shoot really good with the .40.
Robin, I had Wayne build me a .48 barrel. I've molded .470s for it, but Hornady makes .480s as well. I'll buy a box and see which it likes better.
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I've shot chunk for a number of years and and have been using a 1 1/8" X 42" 1-48 ROT Green mountain .50 caliber barrel on a H&A action. Shot .495 ball with .015 pre lubed patch over 90 grains of 3F and did pretty good, considering I was the driver. Shooting in wind, rain and some sunshine I didn't see any great deal of difference in POI. For table shooting I have gone to a .40 caliber but the range is only half that of a chunk match and I think the .40 will carry well with a little more velocity. I used a Green Mountain 15/16" X 32" 1-48 ROT with .395 ball, .015 pre lubed patch over 55 grains of 3F with a TC stock and lock. Come Spring I will be using a 1 1/8" X 34" 1-56 ROT Ed Rayl barrel on a H&A action. They say that success is measured by results so I will have to get back with the next chapter in the Spring.
Mark
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almost no one shoots under a 45 .the wind flat kills a 40 cal . a few shoot 45 the infamous bevel brothers and getzs pushed this caliber. their are a few shooting the 48 magnum .the favorite chunk gun is the 50 cal around 48 inches to 54 inches long - 1 1/ 4 to 1 1/2 flats or round. most of top shpoters are shooting 110 to 130 grains of swiss with Teflon. the big 54s in 1 1/2 flats are winning with
140 to 170 grainss of swiss. look up and down the line and you will find probably 80% or better are shooting 50 cal. top shooters shooting 20 plus lb 50 cal guns 30 lbs for the 54
dag
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almost no one shoots under a 45 .the wind flat kills a 40 cal . a few shoot 45 the infamous bevel brothers and getzs pushed this caliber. their are a few shooting the 48 magnum .the favorite chunk gun is the 50 cal around 48 inches to 54 inches long - 1 1/ 4 to 1 1/2 flats or round. most of top shooters are shooting 110 to 130 grains of Swiss with Teflon. the big 54s in 1 1/2 flats are winning with
140 to 170 grains of Swiss. look up and down the line and you will find probably 80% or better are shooting 50 cal. top shooters shooting 20 plus lb 50 cal guns 30 lbs for the 54
dag
Sounds almost like an arms race with those heavy loads. There's no weight limits on chunk guns that I know of, and with that being said, I have no desire to lug anything beyond 12 to 14 pounds - back and forth from the loading bench to the firing line. I may follow up on the .45 caliber, or I may leave things as they are, dress up the stock a bit, and use my .40 caliber for (like Kermit said) the Table Shoots. Which does look to be lots of fun. And you can wear bib coveralls at either shoot...:)
Table Shoot;
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28255.0
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almost no one shoots under a 45 .the wind flat kills a 40 cal . a few shoot 45 the infamous bevel brothers and getzs pushed this caliber. their are a few shooting the 48 magnum .the favorite chunk gun is the 50 cal around 48 inches to 54 inches long - 1 1/ 4 to 1 1/2 flats or round. most of top shpoters are shooting 110 to 130 grains of swiss with Teflon. the big 54s in 1 1/2 flats are winning with
140 to 170 grainss of swiss. look up and down the line and you will find probably 80% or better are shooting 50 cal. top shooters shooting 20 plus lb 50 cal guns 30 lbs for the 54
dag
Sounds like those guys are getting into shooting log with bench rifles. Pretty soon someone will show up with a 2" X 42" in 58 cal with a sealed ignition. AND a false muzzle so they can swage a .600 ball into the .58 over 200 gr FFg.
Physics does indicate that a larger ball will resist wind better than a smaller one but that is if the two are the same MV. A .40 doing 2,000+ fps MV isn't in the wind for long at 100 yds or less. But you still have to read wind, light and mirage with any of them.
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Hey Candle how have you been doing. I have a 50 cal underhammer I built for chunk shooting. And I have a 38 cal i am going to build for table shoots when I can get to it. Right now I am reqlly enjoying shooting the 50. I built my son in-law a 38 underhammer. I will have to say I am kinda jealous of the groups he is shooting? But I would say it is the young eyes making the difference not the calibre! LOL
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Snuffer,
There's a lot of rifles on the chunk line that go in the 12-14# range and some f them do well. It depends on who's driving that bus. The table shoot rifles have an upper limit of 13# and you don't have to get up and down any farther than a stool. Makes sense to a lot of us grey beards.
Mark
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Physics does indicate that a larger ball will resist wind better than a smaller one but that is if the two are the same MV. A .40 doing 2,000+ fps MV isn't in the wind for long at 100 yds or less. But you still have to read wind, light and mirage with any of them.
I was thinking along these same lines, TC... Low to the ground, maximum 60 yards,,, unless it's a hurricane wind - I can't see a drastic wind effect and even at that, you still play the wind with all shooting activities.
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Hey Candle how have you been doing. I have a 50 cal underhammer I built for chunk shooting. And I have a 38 cal i am going to build for table shoots when I can get to it. Right now I am reqlly enjoying shooting the 50. I built my son in-law a 38 underhammer. I will have to say I am kinda jealous of the groups he is shooting? But I would say it is the young eyes making the difference not the calibre! LOL
Hi Ken, I'm doing good my friend. I'm itching to get back to some over the log shooting. Its been awhile. I'm going to visit with Jim Potter and see about us setting up both a "chunk match" and a "table shoot" in 2014. As a side note, everyone seems to shoot my rifles better then me...lol,,, :)
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Snuffer,
There's a lot of rifles on the chunk line that go in the 12-14# range and some f them do well. It depends on who's driving that bus. The table shoot rifles have an upper limit of 13# and you don't have to get up and down any farther than a stool. Makes sense to a lot of us grey beards.
Mark
I really was thinking back when I built this rifle that the .40 cal was (at that time) considered one of the preferred calibers. After Kermit mentioned that what I have now would be ideal for the Table Shoot's, I really like the idea of a Table Shoot... The reason we stopped the over the log shooting at our club was simply - age...
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Sounds like those guys are getting into shooting log with bench rifles. Pretty soon someone will show up with a 2" X 42" in 58 cal with a sealed ignition. AND a false muzzle so they can swage a .600 ball into the .58 over 200 gr FFg.
False muzzles and inlines are not allowed. I think the sealed ignition system as used on some bench guns may be. At least I think I've seen a few. We're also supposed to use only open sights, the rear sight being at least 6" from the breech. Now as for the front sight, that's getting kinda hinky. I'm seeing a lot of what I would call globe sights being used.
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Hey Snuffer - my Goodoien .40 barrel makes the same size groups at 50 yards as-does my .45 GM barrel - whether using an oil lube or water based.
I see no difference at that range. As I haven't benched either at 100 meters I can't say whether the .45 trumps the .40 or not, but at the longer ranges, I suspect it will.
With LHValley lube, the .40 really liked 65gr. 3F GOEX with either the .398" or .400" ball & .019" (tightly woven pocket drill) patch, but shot just as well (and cleanly) with 75gr. 2f GOEX with exactly the same recorded velocity- between 2,240fps and 2,260fps. I suspect the 'sliptivity' (Taylor's word) of the LHV is likely responsible for the speed with that load - and the 42"(at that time) barrel.
Water based lubes allow less powder, but the slippery lubes, both LHV and Hoppe's #9 Plus demanded more powder or they would simply not group well.
Patches retrieved for examination showed they were re-usable - if one wished. That's a lot of speed, a lot of torque in the rifling - yet due to the tight fit, they patches were unharmed. I do not wipe the bore at any time while shooting at the range. If it sits for a long period of time between loadings due to palaver with other shooters, I'll dump in a 30 or 40gr. charge and a VERY Spit-wet patched ball, load and fire that - the barrel is then as easy to load as usual - 2 meaty fingers on the rod. ;)
My .45 GM, also 42" bl. liked that lube as well. 75gr. of 3f GOEX with .445" and 10 ounce denim (.0225") along with 85gr. 2FGOEX produced just over 2,200fps and also shot those "all-the-balls-touching groups" off the bags at 50 yards. That was on a 4" black bullseye. If I enlarged the aiming point, the groups then got larger - go figure.
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Thanks for the pictures that's a nice-looking piece at 12 5/8 pounds looks like it would make a wonderful table gun on still days. Could make a wonderful chunk gun looks like it be fun to play with anyway, having seen a lot of chunk gun score crossed the line. You see some 45s. Lots of 50s, and some 54, though seem to be the three calibers that are really hanging in there. You see if you 40s, very seldom if ever anything smaller than that. And I've seen some stuff up in the 58 range, but very seldom. Most of the time. It seems like the real serious log shooter stays with one of those three primary calibers. A few years back 48 caliber made a run at a at a row close friend who had one. Unfortunately, the ore was actually 48 so the 480 ball that Hornaday made with any kind of patch was like trying to put a peck and a half into a peck basket. At any rate, it looks like you have a nice rifle and now you have managed to get me in the mood, guess where my teeth will stop chattering outside. I'm probably going to have to head out set up the table and shoot something.
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Robin,
If you get out to the range, make sure you kill a couple of spiders for me.
Mark
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There has been chatter about the greying of ML shooters, and making accommodations or devising new games only makes sense. The longer some of us can keep shooting, the more likely I see it that we might infect some new shooters with the burning sulphur virus.
So here's to more table shoots. I have a flinter with a .50 x 48" deHass (?) barrel, and I love it, but it's getting tough on my bad days to shoot the sucker offhand. I'm itching to "table" it.
I see the weight limit as only sensible for this kind of shooting. But I also see some of the great chunk guns and RB bench guns getting out to play being tougher on the owners since they're not being allowed. Someone should run a table shoot with two categories, shot off the same tables at the same time, just competing in different classes. Call them "traditional" and "open" maybe. In "open," allow heavier weight, any iron sight, still PRB only, remove your cant block. That way I could shoot that .50 in "traditional" and give me more opportunities to haul out my 33lb .54 chunk gun or my .54 RB bench rifle. They don't get much opportunity to play with others.
This might get a few more shooters involved, and it would be fun to see what those heavy guns can do, keeping them competing separately from the "light" rifles. Could be fun to try it and see what happens. Fun to watch too!
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Hi Kermit,
I have to agree with you, as I also have a number of heavier chunk guns. But, getting into the game after the fact I have elected to go along with the crowd and am having a ball. There's nothing to say that, although the movement is trying to be standardized, each club can't set up it's own rules. Perhaps the two class system will be attractive to enough shooters that it will be addede to the game. Hope you and the family have a safe and happy holiday season.
Mark
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Just to throw this out there...the Bowers underhammer system is made to adapt to any number of barrels with its special fitted breech plug. You can fool around with a bunch interchangable of barrels that way if you like, and they will all change right into or out of your action and stock in just a few minutes.
tca
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T.C.,
That's why I use the H&A type of action. Flexibility and simplicity.
Mark
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Physics does indicate that a larger ball will resist wind better than a smaller one but that is if the two are the same MV. A .40 doing 2,000+ fps MV isn't in the wind for long at 100 yds or less. But you still have to read wind, light and mirage with any of them.
I was thinking along these same lines, TC... Low to the ground, maximum 60 yards,,, unless it's a hurricane wind - I can't see a drastic wind effect and even at that, you still play the wind with all shooting activities.
You need to come to Cody WY. We usually only have 1 wind flag and an impossible to see change down range will move a 50 caliber ball an inch or more. But we shoot in conditions that would cause people in the east to call the match.
As are result we see things like this where it always just a little stronger than I think.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FShooting%2FP1020648.jpg&hash=51eb7169cae6e2c8b8b9cec3c19c8f4947560d81)
And this part of the same match (we were short of targets and shooting three on each that day)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FShooting%2FTurkeycopy.jpg&hash=a1d8295138c15d9656fc70f57a907c76e91524d1)
When the wind does its 180 degree shift in direction and things start going off the other way.
Or at another match this sort of thing which includes my sighters for the day and I never could seem to catch up.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FShooting%2FP1040249.jpg&hash=e54e2ddb41ea6da14109b6114e7027fa42a8b672)
So its very common to have a string of shots strung across the target left to right. There are no sighters once we go for score.
These are three targets shot by three different shooters on the day of the "sighter" above. Note the similarities. One was a 45, the schuetzen target was a 40 IIRC. Mine is a 50. All targets are "sighter" targets left up and score targets put over them.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FShooting%2FP1040250.jpg&hash=5a88bbf00bce03401b184cc45bb539112b278d49)
But we don't shoot off a chunk since we have shooters that won't lay down. We shoot a "plank rest" another traditional rest for Turkey and Beef matches from a painting of a shoot in the winter in NY state probably in the 1870s.
A 45 in the hands of someone who can really read the wind can be very competitive. But he still holds far more wind than I do with the 50. Though I suspect I am making more velocity than he. A 40 would be a long way from my first choice for this no matter how well it shot.
Wind drift is based on how much speed the projectile loses over its flight to the target. This is why modern high ballistic C , .600 or so, bullets drift so little. But the RB cannot be improved except by increasing its diameter.
In the 30 pound rifle I would go with a .662 or larger ball and a charge that shot well if wind was an issue. I know it will beat a 54-58 in wind drift. .662 is double the weight of a 530-535. But then it takes a lot of lead to shoot a match.
This is why people are shooting 50s and 54s with large charges of powder, wind, and its pretty well shown that heavy charges shoot better in many cases.
Dan
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When there isn't any wind, sometimes the groups come together - for Neil. Man- it was hot- that's MY excuse - this time. ;D
3-shot shoot-off for first place. Both shooting .40 cal. flintlock trail walk rifles under 8 pounds.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPGRodandRendezvousGunPlankShootJune2013003_zps3f3d65af.jpg&hash=1070e1657be647250335332a2e61c805cec5da79) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/PGRodandRendezvousGunPlankShootJune2013003_zps3f3d65af.jpg.html)
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Hi Kermit,
I have to agree with you, as I also have a number of heavier chunk guns. But, getting into the game after the fact I have elected to go along with the crowd and am having a ball. There's nothing to say that, although the movement is trying to be standardized, each club can't set up it's own rules. Perhaps the two class system will be attractive to enough shooters that it will be addede to the game. Hope you and the family have a safe and happy holiday season.
Mark
Hey Kermit.
That very thought of having two classes has crossed my mind more than once.
We spent our first year trying to get a grip on running the shoots as a single class. The tables that I have built and I know the one that Mark has built are plenty heavy enough to hold up these bigger guns. Paul and I knew when we started this that this sort of thing would be possible, we just wanted to start out making it easier on the more mature shooter, which consequently would make it easier on the very young shooter, but you are correct we need to do what it will take to draw in new shooters. And keep our more mature shooters,, online longer.
I have a 1 3/8 Bowers action with a spidermatic 48" x 1 3/8 in 50 caliber on it to shoot over the log within a matter of moments I can place my Spidermatic 30" x 1 1/8" 38 caliber table gun barrel, for nearly a 15 pound difference.
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For what its worth I had chunk gun stocked up by Karl Fisher around a Bowers under hammer action on a 48" DeHaas, .50 cal barrel. I was of the opinion that chunkers ought to traditionally be extra long and generally large calibered. But that idea could be all wrong too.
tca
There are 2 FL match rifles in Kindigs book. One #124 by C. Zorger and the other #139 attributed to Klinedinst. The 54 cal Zorger weighs 17.5, the 60 caliber A.K. marked rifle 14.5 and it has a full length sight shade and a peep sight.
Both have engraved patchboxes, side plates and carving. Kindig explains he has another C Zorger that is similar to 124. I wish they had pictured it as well though I suppose it might be in another book somewhere.
Like
Pg 146 of "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850 has an attributed Zorger that would weight 16 pounds +- with a 1 1/4" x 44" barrel in .74 caliber. This is a great book but the KRA apparently did not bother with rifle weights as Kindig did something from the standpoint of a builder and shooter is a serious omission. There are probably other heavy rifles but sometimes its difficult to tell from photos how heavy a rifle really is if its nicely shaped. I also wonder about survivability. Heavy rifles are far more prone to broken stocks than light ones. I know that the WW-I scrap drives got Kentuckys, just do not know how many. So would a heavy rifle be seen as a patriotic contribution?
I would point out that none of these three rifles are extra long. Being more in the "typical" length range. But they are likely 70-100 years earlier that the now typical heavy iron mounted "chunk gun" that seems to have evolved from what is often referred to as a "Southern Mountain Rifle". Folks need to remember that rest shooting was apparently the norm in the 18th c for most rifle matches in America, long before the "SMR" evolved. So its obvious both from logic and surviving rifles that the heavy match rifles known to Europe, Germany for example, would also be made here by rifle makers in PA and areas influenced by them. Nor were large calibers rare it would seem.
Dan
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When there isn't any wind, sometimes the groups come together - for Neil. Man- it was hot- that's MY excuse - this time. ;D
3-shot shoot-off for first place. Both shooting .40 cal. flintlock trail walk rifles under 8 pounds.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPGRodandRendezvousGunPlankShootJune2013003_zps3f3d65af.jpg&hash=1070e1657be647250335332a2e61c805cec5da79) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/PGRodandRendezvousGunPlankShootJune2013003_zps3f3d65af.jpg.html)
That is some nice shooting.
Daryl, I do have a 9 pound .45 flintlock (Pennsylvania Rifle) that I made as an all around rifle some years ago. Though I've never shot an over the log match with it, I'm sorely tempted to do so. .45 Caliber Green Mnt Brl - 7/8x42 inches, 1 in 60 twist, Large Siler Lock. It like 65 grains of Goex 3fg with a 4f prime. I think it'd be interesting to see what i could do with it in a chunk gun match.
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Interesting information on those chunk rifles, Dan. Some years back I toyed with the idea of making a 36" barreled .50 caliber chunk gun with a Green Mnt 1-1/8" barrel, and a more forgiving wide butt-plate. Weight wise it should have come in at near 14 pounds as that's what my X-stick rifle came in at (13-7/8 pounds) with that very barrel. Still considering it for now. Might be getting close to the time to talk with Ed Rayl?
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Interesting information on those chunk rifles, Dan. Some years back I toyed with the idea of making a 36" barreled .50 caliber chunk gun with a Green Mnt 1-1/8" barrel, and a more forgiving wide butt-plate. Weight wise it should have come in at near 14 pounds as that's what my X-stick rifle came in at (13-7/8 pounds) with that very barrel. Still considering it for now. Might be getting close to the time to talk with Ed Rayl?
I did something similar last year. I built a flint halfstock rifle with a 36" .40 cal 1 1/8" GM barrel and a specially configured hooked/patent breech. In its current configuration it weighs in right at 14 lbs., which is legal for X-stick (which I'm going to try next spring) and manageable (although a little tiresome at the end of the match) in offhand for me. Ultimately, I would like to get two more barrels for it, 1) a lighter (tapered) barrel for offhand and 2) a 48" barrel for chunk. It shoots chunk pretty well as is (for me, I just started this spring), but I could use a longer sight radius to good effect. I like the idea of using the same/familiar stock, lock, triggers, etc., in different situations.
In the course of talking to barrel makers about the chunk barrel, I've been told that .40 cal. is about maximum/optimum for 1 1/8" barrel, due to flex, and that larger calibers are better served by bigger barrels in a chunk gun. So, although I was originally going to go with .50 cal. (my favorite for everything, since I have trouble handling .40 cal. balls), I am taking their advice under serious consideration and may stick with .40 cal. Also, the ones I talked to didn't seem to think that .40 cal. would be a very serious handicap until I got into the "big leagues". I'm thinking it might be fine unless my shooting puts me in the top 10 or 20 type of shooter :). At that point, I'd probably just build a behemoth .50 or bigger super specialized chunk gun. Anyway, don't know if this is relevant or not (1 1/8" .50 might be fine at 36"), but thought I'd put it out there.
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I appreciate that info, bgf. When one really starts thinking about over the log shooting, for such a simplistic approach to the game, the options are enormous with, calibers, ignitions, overall rifle weights... The non adjustable sights are about the only thing I can think of that is consistent to the game. :)
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Snuffer,
I already spoke to Ed and am expecting a 1 1/8" X 34" barrel in .40 caliber with a 1-56 ROT for my table gun. It shoud come together at a "little" under the 13# limit on a H&A underhammer action. On the other hand I have a chunk gun here that was built by Cecil Brooks with a 1 5/8" X 46" Claude Turner barrel in .45 caliber. It is full stocked with a built in cant and a Brooks underhammer action. This one weighs in at a little over 35#. It has a dedicated RH stock and since I shoot LH have not shot the rifle even though I've owned it for a long time. With the right driver behind the wheel this one should do well.
Mark
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Mark! Pix!
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I might be barking up the wrong tree for now, and should give this Table Shooting a try with my chunk gun before I make any decisions on building another rifle I may end up seldom using.
Mark, if you're coming in under 13 pounds on your new Ed Rayl .40, and I'm already there with what I have now, it may be the wise move for me to stand pat, at least 'til Spring, and give this Table Shooting a good try. Now I have used my .40 off the x-sticks with pretty good effect at 50 yards, so this may be the thing to do before I make an absolute decision. I do appreciate all the good input that been posted here on this subject. :)
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Snuffer,
I have a chunk gun that is built around a 1 1/8" X 42" Green Mountain .50 caliber barrel. I used a H&A action with a built up stock but no forearm and it weighs in at less that 13 1/2#. Depending on what type of stock and action you are using, a 36" barrel in .50 caliber may work, weight wise.
Kermit,
I will try to get some pics of the Broks rifle out to you in a few days. Still can't post but you may if you want.
Mark
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Will try, Mark. Hope you're doing well.
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kermit,
Can't say I'm doing to bad but this busted up hand has sure put everything on hold. Surgery was 6 weeks ago and I still can't bend the finger. Just one more set back but I'll be giving the X's $#*! again in the Spring. Hope you and the family are adjusting after the move.
Mark
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Daryl, where does the target print come from to acquire copies and what distance are you shooting them. Table shoot is about 30 yards and over the log I believe is 60 yards. Thanks
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I don't know whaere Daryl's target came from but there are a lot of printable targets available on "targetz.com".
Mark
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Save it to your own computers and print your own. We shot the plank shoot at Hefley Creek at 50 yards with this target. We built 10 Douglas Fir planks, 2" X 12" X 8feet long, with crossed 2X3" fir uprights which fit slots at the tops of the planks. They were extremely secure an solid.
Due to it being the first time for the event and only having an afternoon for shooting AND scoring, I drew white lines on the target to separate the head and nose wattle from the rest of the body. There was not enough time to string score, so we scored the head, 5 and body 2 points. 5 shots per each of 2 targets, 10 shot match. Use your imaginations. We have the Douglas Fir timbers cut for our moving turkey head target. In the Spring, we'll build it.
You can copy this basic turkey and print your own targets. I used 28 pound and bristle board for mine. Might have been cheaper to have them professionally printed on real target paper, but maybe not - something to look into.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPlank%2520Shooting%2FPlankTurkey001_zps4976656e.jpg&hash=a6c43225ab59cc82803770a28008c23209b2202c) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Plank%20Shooting/PlankTurkey001_zps4976656e.jpg.html)
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Daryl, how about some photos of your plank rests? I hate reinventing wheels and just about anything else.
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Daryl, thank you for your response with the target and shoot information. This will be used in the next couple of months here in N.E. Pa. We did a table shoot this fall and all shooters learned this is not the easy shoot that it sounds like with the distance involved. TB
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Seems I have no pictures of our planks and they are now stored near Kamloops, B.C., 6 1/2 hours South of here.
Heeeeeeers Dan in Wyoming:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FP1020651-1.jpg&hash=7c990d5b0ea9099098e2c5746f28c3e642ac83a2) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/P1020651-1.jpg.html)
Here's an original painting of a plank shoot.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FPlankshoot.jpg&hash=8413bdc191e530b93e6f0614961ad5dd546e2b9d) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Plankshoot.jpg.html)
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Daryl,
That plank rest is pretty elaborate. Makes the tables we shoot off of look like a tinker toy.
Mark
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no a arms race every one is basicly shooting the same barrels- actions-cailbers - sights and loads.they went to the heavier barrels for less gun movement .even when I started chunk a 12 lb 40 cal was just wrong for shooting 60 yard chunk.i started with a 40 cal underhamer 1 inch barrel .it was worthless as a competitive chunk gun even 20 years ago.sure you make a couple good shots then welcome to the 10 shot string.take a good look at all the old chunk guns. they were long big heavy rascals. the only difference now is most are 1/2 stocked you did the same thing I did. made a very bad decision on what you wanted instead of what a winning chunk gun is. I take part of that back about 15 years ago a couple places
tried having 2 chunk classes at the same time and they had a under 12 lb class it failed quickly.what it turned out was guys using their hunting rifles or the small bench rifle they set up for 50 yard club matches. the good part is don't let it bother you.you have fun shooting your light 40 flinter -do it.you want a competitive chunk gun that's a different story
dag
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dayrl -we have chunk -picnic table shoots and the table shoot over at coons.darn i am going to build one of your plank deals and haul out to the club. looks like fun. thanks for pictures i see you are sort of kneeling any special rules on sitting etc or just any way we can get gun up their .since it is you game how do you like to keep score-range and target for the game thanks dag
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love the covers, they really do help cut down the glare a lot. I need to rig something up for my hawken.