Author Topic: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited  (Read 22319 times)

Offline Kermit

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2013, 08:46:44 PM »
There has been chatter about the greying of ML shooters, and making accommodations or devising new games only makes sense. The longer some of us can keep shooting, the more likely I see it that we might infect some new shooters with the burning sulphur virus.

So here's to more table shoots. I have a flinter with a .50 x 48" deHass (?) barrel, and I love it, but it's getting tough on my bad days to shoot the sucker offhand. I'm itching to "table" it.

I see the weight limit as only sensible for this kind of shooting. But I also see some of the great chunk guns and RB bench guns getting out to play being tougher on the owners since they're not being allowed. Someone should run a table shoot with two categories, shot off the same tables at the same time, just competing in different classes. Call them "traditional" and "open" maybe. In "open," allow heavier weight, any iron sight, still PRB only, remove your cant block. That way I could shoot that .50 in "traditional" and give me more opportunities to haul out my 33lb .54 chunk gun or my .54 RB bench rifle. They don't get much opportunity to play with others.

This might get a few more shooters involved, and it would be fun to see what those heavy guns can do, keeping them competing separately from the "light" rifles. Could be fun to try it and see what happens. Fun to watch too!
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2013, 11:02:38 PM »
Hi Kermit,
I have to agree with you, as I also have a number of heavier chunk guns. But, getting  into the game after the fact I have elected to go along with the crowd and am having a ball. There's nothing to say that, although the movement is trying to be standardized, each club can't set up it's own rules. Perhaps the two class system will be attractive to enough shooters that it will be addede to the game. Hope you and the family have a safe and happy holiday season.
Mark
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2013, 01:50:44 AM »
Just to throw this out there...the Bowers underhammer system is made to adapt to any number of barrels with its special fitted breech plug. You can fool around with a bunch interchangable of barrels that way if you like, and they will all change right into or out of  your action and stock in just a few minutes.
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Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2013, 02:39:33 AM »
T.C.,
That's why I use the H&A type of action. Flexibility and simplicity.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2013, 06:40:11 PM »
Physics does indicate that a larger ball will resist wind better than a smaller one but that is if the two are the same MV.  A .40 doing 2,000+ fps MV  isn't in the wind for long at 100 yds or less.  But you still have to read wind, light and mirage with any of them.

I was thinking along these same lines, TC...  Low to the ground, maximum 60 yards,,, unless it's a hurricane wind - I can't see a drastic wind effect and even at that, you still play the wind with all shooting activities.


You need to come to Cody WY. We usually only have 1 wind flag and an impossible to see change down range will move a 50 caliber ball an inch or more. But we shoot in conditions that would cause people in the east to call the match.
As are result we see things like this where it always just a little stronger than I think.

And this part of the same match (we were short of targets and shooting three on each that day)

When the wind does its 180 degree shift in direction and things start going off the other way.


Or at another match this sort of thing which includes my sighters for the day and I never could seem to catch up.


So its very common to have a string of shots strung across the target left to right. There are no sighters once we go for score.
These are three targets shot by three different shooters on the day of the "sighter" above. Note the similarities. One was a 45, the schuetzen target was a 40 IIRC. Mine is a 50. All targets are "sighter" targets left up and score targets put over them.

But we don't shoot off a chunk since we have shooters that won't lay down. We shoot a "plank rest" another traditional rest for Turkey and Beef matches from a painting of a shoot in the winter in NY state probably in the 1870s.
A 45 in the hands of someone who can really read the wind can be very competitive. But he still holds far more wind than I do with the 50. Though I suspect I am making more velocity than he. A 40 would be a long way from my first choice for this no matter how well it shot.
Wind drift is based on how much speed the projectile loses over its flight to the target. This is why modern high ballistic C , .600 or so, bullets drift so little. But the RB cannot be improved except by increasing its diameter.
In the 30 pound rifle I would go with a .662 or larger ball and a charge that shot well if wind was an issue. I know it will beat a 54-58 in wind drift. .662 is double the weight of a 530-535. But then it takes a lot of lead to shoot a match.
This is why people are shooting 50s and 54s with large charges of powder, wind, and its pretty well shown that heavy charges shoot better in many cases.
Dan
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2013, 07:04:26 PM »
When there isn't any wind, sometimes the groups come together - for Neil. Man- it was hot- that's MY excuse - this time. ;D

3-shot shoot-off for first place. Both shooting .40 cal. flintlock trail walk rifles under 8 pounds.


« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 07:07:29 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2013, 07:09:30 PM »
Hi Kermit,
I have to agree with you, as I also have a number of heavier chunk guns. But, getting  into the game after the fact I have elected to go along with the crowd and am having a ball. There's nothing to say that, although the movement is trying to be standardized, each club can't set up it's own rules. Perhaps the two class system will be attractive to enough shooters that it will be addede to the game. Hope you and the family have a safe and happy holiday season.
Mark
Hey Kermit.
That very thought of having two classes has crossed my mind more than once.
We spent our first year trying to get a grip on running the shoots as a single class. The tables that I have built and I know the one that Mark has built are plenty heavy enough to hold up these bigger guns. Paul and I knew when we started this that this sort of thing would be possible, we just wanted to start out making it easier on the more mature shooter, which consequently would make it easier on the very young shooter, but  you are correct we need to do what it will take to draw in new shooters. And keep our more mature shooters,, online longer.
 I have a 1 3/8 Bowers action with a spidermatic 48" x 1 3/8 in 50 caliber on it to shoot over the log within a matter of moments I can place my Spidermatic 30" x 1 1/8" 38 caliber table gun barrel, for nearly a 15 pound difference.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2013, 07:51:46 PM »
For what its worth I had chunk gun stocked up by Karl Fisher around a Bowers under hammer action on a 48" DeHaas, .50 cal barrel. I was of the opinion that chunkers ought to traditionally be extra long and generally large calibered. But that idea could be all wrong too.
tca

There are 2 FL match rifles in Kindigs book. One #124 by C. Zorger and the other #139 attributed to Klinedinst. The  54 cal Zorger weighs 17.5, the 60 caliber A.K. marked rifle 14.5 and it has a full length sight shade and a peep sight.
Both have engraved patchboxes, side plates and carving. Kindig explains he has another C Zorger that is similar to 124. I wish they had pictured it as well though I suppose it might be in another book somewhere.
Like
Pg 146 of "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850 has an attributed Zorger that would weight 16 pounds +- with a 1 1/4" x 44" barrel in .74 caliber.  This is a great book but the KRA apparently did not bother with rifle weights as Kindig did something from the standpoint of a builder and shooter is a serious omission.  There are probably other heavy rifles but sometimes its difficult to tell from photos how heavy a rifle really is if its nicely shaped. I also wonder about survivability. Heavy rifles are far more prone to broken stocks than light ones. I know that the WW-I scrap drives got Kentuckys, just do not know how many. So would a heavy rifle be seen as a patriotic contribution?
I would point out that none of these three rifles are extra long. Being more in the "typical" length range. But they are likely 70-100 years earlier that the now typical heavy iron mounted "chunk gun" that seems to have evolved from what is often referred to as a "Southern Mountain Rifle". Folks need to remember that rest shooting was apparently the norm in the 18th c for most rifle matches in America, long before the "SMR" evolved. So its obvious both from logic and surviving rifles that the heavy match rifles known to Europe, Germany for example, would also be made here by rifle makers in PA and areas influenced by them.  Nor were large calibers rare it would seem.

Dan
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Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2013, 04:15:21 AM »
When there isn't any wind, sometimes the groups come together - for Neil. Man- it was hot- that's MY excuse - this time. ;D

3-shot shoot-off for first place. Both shooting .40 cal. flintlock trail walk rifles under 8 pounds.




That is some nice shooting.

Daryl, I do have a 9 pound .45 flintlock (Pennsylvania Rifle) that I made as an all around rifle some years ago.  Though I've never shot an over the log match with it, I'm sorely tempted to do so.  .45 Caliber Green Mnt Brl - 7/8x42 inches, 1 in 60 twist,  Large Siler Lock.  It like 65 grains of Goex 3fg with a 4f prime.  I think it'd be interesting to see what i could do with it in a chunk gun match.
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Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2013, 04:31:10 AM »
Interesting information on those chunk rifles, Dan.  Some years back I toyed with the idea of making a 36" barreled .50 caliber chunk gun with a Green Mnt 1-1/8" barrel, and a more forgiving wide butt-plate.  Weight wise it should have come in at near 14 pounds as that's what my X-stick rifle came in at (13-7/8 pounds) with that very barrel.  Still considering it for now.  Might be getting close to the time to talk with Ed Rayl?
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Offline bgf

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2013, 05:07:38 AM »
Interesting information on those chunk rifles, Dan.  Some years back I toyed with the idea of making a 36" barreled .50 caliber chunk gun with a Green Mnt 1-1/8" barrel, and a more forgiving wide butt-plate.  Weight wise it should have come in at near 14 pounds as that's what my X-stick rifle came in at (13-7/8 pounds) with that very barrel.  Still considering it for now.  Might be getting close to the time to talk with Ed Rayl?

I did something similar last year.  I built a flint halfstock rifle with a 36" .40 cal 1 1/8" GM barrel and a specially configured hooked/patent breech.  In its current configuration it weighs in right at 14 lbs., which is legal for X-stick (which I'm going to try next spring) and manageable (although a little tiresome at the end of the match) in offhand for me.  Ultimately, I would like to get two more barrels for it, 1) a lighter (tapered) barrel for offhand and 2) a 48" barrel for chunk.  It shoots chunk pretty well as is (for me, I just started this spring), but I could use a longer sight radius to good effect.  I like the idea of using the same/familiar stock, lock, triggers, etc., in different situations. 

In the course of talking to barrel makers about the chunk barrel, I've been told that .40 cal. is about maximum/optimum for 1 1/8" barrel, due to flex, and that larger calibers are better served by bigger barrels in a chunk gun.  So, although I was originally going to go with .50 cal. (my favorite for everything, since I have trouble handling .40 cal. balls), I am taking their advice under serious consideration and may stick with .40 cal.  Also, the ones I talked to didn't seem to think that .40 cal. would be a very serious handicap until I got into the "big leagues".  I'm thinking it might be fine unless my shooting puts me in the top 10 or 20 type of shooter :).  At that point, I'd probably just build a behemoth .50 or bigger super specialized chunk gun.  Anyway, don't know if this is relevant or not (1 1/8" .50 might be fine at 36"), but thought I'd put it out there.

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2013, 05:49:35 AM »
I appreciate that info, bgf.  When one really starts thinking about over the log shooting, for such a simplistic approach to the game, the options are enormous with, calibers, ignitions, overall rifle weights...  The non adjustable sights are about the only thing I can think of that is consistent to the game. :)
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Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2013, 06:00:37 AM »
Snuffer,
I already spoke to Ed and am expecting a 1 1/8" X 34" barrel in .40 caliber with a 1-56 ROT for my table gun. It shoud come together at a "little" under the 13# limit on a H&A underhammer action. On the other hand I have a chunk gun here that was built by Cecil Brooks with a 1 5/8" X 46" Claude Turner barrel in .45 caliber. It is full stocked with a built in cant and a Brooks underhammer action. This one weighs in at a little over 35#. It has a dedicated RH stock and since I shoot LH have not shot the rifle even though I've owned it for a long time. With the right driver behind the wheel this one should do well.
Mark
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2013, 06:36:16 AM »
Mark! Pix!
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Candle Snuffer

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2013, 07:47:05 AM »
I might be barking up the wrong tree for now, and should give this Table Shooting a try with my chunk gun before I make any decisions on building another rifle I may end up seldom using.

Mark, if you're coming in under 13 pounds on your new Ed Rayl .40, and I'm already there with what I have now, it may be the wise move for me to stand pat, at least 'til Spring, and give this Table Shooting a good try.  Now I have used my .40 off the x-sticks with pretty good effect at 50 yards, so this may be the thing to do before I make an absolute decision.  I do appreciate all the good input that been posted here on this subject. :)
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Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2013, 06:57:22 PM »
Snuffer,
I have a chunk gun that is built around a 1 1/8" X 42" Green Mountain .50 caliber barrel. I used a H&A action with a built up stock but no forearm and it weighs in at less that 13 1/2#. Depending on what type of stock and action you are using, a 36" barrel in .50 caliber may work, weight wise.

Kermit,
I will try to get some pics of the Broks rifle out to you in a few days. Still can't post but you may if you want.
Mark
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2013, 07:09:57 PM »
Will try, Mark. Hope you're doing well.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2013, 07:17:53 PM »
kermit,
Can't say I'm doing to bad but this busted up hand has sure put everything on hold. Surgery was 6 weeks ago and I still can't bend the finger. Just one more set back but I'll be giving the X's $#*! again in the Spring. Hope you and the family are adjusting after the move.
Mark
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Online tpr-tru

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2013, 07:29:42 PM »
Daryl,  where does the target print come from to acquire copies and what distance are you shooting them.  Table shoot is about 30 yards and over the log I believe is 60 yards.   Thanks

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2013, 08:15:41 PM »
I don't know whaere Daryl's target came from but there are a lot of printable targets available on "targetz.com".
Mark
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2013, 10:29:20 PM »
Save it to your own computers and print your own.  We shot the plank shoot at Hefley Creek at 50 yards with this target. We built 10 Douglas Fir  planks, 2" X 12" X 8feet long, with crossed 2X3" fir uprights which fit slots at the tops of the planks. They were extremely secure an solid.

Due to it being the first time for the event and only having an afternoon for shooting AND scoring, I drew white lines on the target to separate the head and nose wattle from the rest of the body.  There was not enough time to string score, so we scored the head, 5 and body 2 points.  5 shots per each of 2 targets, 10 shot match.  Use your imaginations.  We have the Douglas Fir timbers cut for our moving turkey head target.  In the Spring, we'll build it.


You can copy this basic turkey and print your own targets.  I used 28 pound and bristle board for mine. Might have been cheaper to have them professionally printed on real target paper, but maybe not - something to look into.



Daryl

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Offline Kermit

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2013, 11:23:47 PM »
Daryl, how about some photos of your plank rests? I hate reinventing wheels and just about anything else.
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Online tpr-tru

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #47 on: December 15, 2013, 04:51:17 AM »
Daryl,   thank you for your response with the target and shoot information.   This will be used in the next couple of months here in N.E. Pa.    We did a table shoot this fall and all shooters learned this is not the easy shoot that it sounds like with the distance involved.    TB

Offline Daryl

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2013, 11:23:01 PM »
Seems I have no pictures of our planks and they are now stored near Kamloops, B.C., 6 1/2 hours South of here.

Heeeeeeers Dan in Wyoming:



Here's an original painting of a plank shoot.

Daryl

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Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Chunk Gun Caliber's - Revisited
« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2013, 11:46:47 PM »
Daryl,
That plank rest is pretty elaborate. Makes the tables we shoot off of look like a tinker toy.
Mark
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