AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Nordnecker on April 04, 2014, 01:20:10 AM
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I installed a simple trigger. It feels perfect when the gun isn't cocked- no creep, I can feel it against the sear. When the gun is cocked, it creeps to the sear- a lot. The pull is pretty light. I can make/use another trigger if it will correct this. What should I do? Or what should I do differently? My pivot pin is about 1/4" in front of the sear.
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I had the same with my first build. solved it by capturing the sear bar in a hole in the trigger plate. it angles the trigger back some but I like the looks and the way it works.
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The problem is the 1/4"......too close, I have found that just a little bit under 1/2" seems to work for me. It is a thing that
requires some playing around, you have to work toward a happy medium. If you make it real short, such as your 1/4" it is
a very light pull, but has creep. If you pin it longer, 1/2", you will find that it pull somewhat harder, but has little or no
creep.........Don
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Nordnecker,
When you say 'creep' only when the hammer is cocked, do you mean that there is slack that must be taken up before the trigger touches the sear?
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Yes. "Creep" might be the wrong word. When cocked, there is a bit of slack or slop that must be taken up before the trigger contacts the sear bar. When the lock is uncocked, there is a nice springy feel with no slop- a little side to side movement, though. After the slop is taken up, it trips the sear quickly. The pull weight might be a little light for a fowler, but the hammer won't fall from rapping the stock with a mallet, etc.
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The only cure is to have a feather spring that holds the trigger against the sear.
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Nearly all of the best English guns and rifles have a lightly preloaded spring that holds the trigger release bar against the sear arm.Works fine.
Bob Roller
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I installed a simple trigger. It feels perfect when the gun isn't cocked- no creep, I can feel it against the sear. When the gun is cocked, it creeps to the sear- a lot. The pull is pretty light. I can make/use another trigger if it will correct this. What should I do? Or what should I do differently? My pivot pin is about 1/4" in front of the sear.
Too close to the sear unless the lock is well tuned. And then never are as they come.
Too close, less than 1/2" invariably produce creep.
Dan
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Hi Nordnecker,
What is the lock? Take it out of the gun and bring it to half cock and then full cock. Look at the position of the sear bar when the lock is at rest, then half cock, and then full cock. Does it return to the same position on the lockplate each time or is it a little higher at full cock? That may be the source of the problem not the pin position. The simplest fix in that case is to install a very light flat spring on the triggerplate that holds the trigger against the sear regardless of how it moves. That spring must be very light so not to interfere with the sear engaging the tumbler properly. There are other fixes but they involve altering the sear or the tumbler, something I would not recommend unles you have a lot of experience.
dave
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may be the lock~tip showed me 'good ones' and bad ones.....the sear bar should be slight movement, then back to where it starts.
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We should differentiate between trigger slop and trigger creep.
Slop: when the lock if cocked, or at rest, the trigger rattles fore and aft. (a light feather spring will fix this)
Creep: when the trigger is against the sear, your finger has to pull a long distance to get the sear nose out of the full cock notch. This could mean the full cock notch is too deep, too rough, or steel too soft. It could also mean the trigger pivot is pinned too close to the sear bar, geometry problem.
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I had a french fusil that had no slop,just a little creep. I got to like it. When I felt the creep, I knew exactly when it would trip.
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What's worse, a gun with a little creep or a little creep with a gun? (that's one for you, Roy)
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Well fellows, I really do appreciate all of the comments. I was under the impression that the sear would return to the same position during all of the settings. It seems to be a bit lower when at rest than when half/cocked. This is the slop I'm feeling. I understand how a feather spring would help, and will probably go that route.
I suppose the trigger pin could be moved forward at any time if it proves to be too light. I haven't had any time to fiddle with it today. I'll have a good look at it this evening.
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Here's what I found. The sear is a little lower at rest than it is at half/cock position- not much, not even visible difference. So I wrapped a peice of electric tape around the sear bar just to see if it made a difference. The slop is gone.
So maybe I could find a little piece of metal tubing to go over the sear bar or maybe weld a little to the top of the trigger?
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There should be a little play between the trigger and sear! Don't make it too tight, or you'll create an unsafe condition where the sear nose may not fully engage the full cock!
These are muzzleloader triggers, not Canjar triggers. There has to be a little slop.
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acer
would like to know how a spring to take up "slop" would be fashioned. I tried that before I captured the sear bar in the plate and as you stated it would not hold at full cock.
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Make this a very light spring so it just carries the weight of the trigger, and holds it against the sear. Note the spring contacts closer to the pivot, not at the very end of the trigger bar, this helps reduce the pressure on the sear. Too much pressure on the trigger would make the gun go off.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FBreech%2520Designs%2FTriggers%2FTriggerfeatherspring_zps18318fea.jpg&hash=d3a89f876a06690608631bd9fb4cf9351d207ca4) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/Breech%20Designs/Triggers/Triggerfeatherspring_zps18318fea.jpg.html)
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Locks sold with the touted 'one position sear' are seldom exact. But you can fine tune this by working the notches so the sear bar is in exactly the same position for rest, half cock and full.
It's less work to add a feather spring.
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A spring with upward thrust for this can easily be made from a piece of spring steel .025 thick.
As Acer said,too much upward pressure can create a dangerous lack of engagement at full cock.
I make springs nearly every day so see it as a non problem.
Also,unless you are experienced with remaking or modifying locks,I'd avoid the idea of altering the notches in the tumbler.
Bob Roller
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Acer's diagram was very helpful. I decided to try to pean the trigger a little to make it wider. I could always file it back down if it caused a problem. There is no more slop. I can rap the stock with a mallet and the hammer won't fall. As it turns out, the pivot is about 3/8" from the sear. I'm pretty happy with it now.
Thanks everyone.
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I just caution you that with no slop between trigger and sear, it's possible that the trigger could be holding the sear from completely engaging the half-cock notch. Worse would be if the sear is now prevented from going completely in the full cock notch. When the stock wood shrinks, it's possible that the gun could be in an unsafe condition.
Safety is first and foremost.
Safety is why I prefer the feather spring, as it is very forgiving of many conditions.