AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: moleeyes36 on May 31, 2014, 12:54:34 AM
-
I'm about to embark into what is to me the uncharted waters of basic long rifle engraving. A while back my decidedly better half gave me a beginner's engraving set from Track of the Wolf for Christmas. Along with some odds and ends, it included a DVD on Beginning Engraving by Jack Brooks, a #1 square graver, a push handle for the graver, and a chasing hammer. Not sure why they included a chasing hammer with a push graver. My question is on the correct size graver I should have.
In the excellent DVD Jack demonstrates, among other things, doing basic engraving with a chasing hammer and square graver that appears to be considerably larger than the tiny #1 push graver, which from what I gather is suited for detail work and shading. Track sells square gravers from #1 to #5 and MBS sells a #6. My question is what size, or sizes, of square gravers should I have on hand to begin learning to do some basic engraving? Thanks.
Mole Eyes
-
I recommend checking out Lindsey engraveing web sight he sells sharpening tools that are spot on
A dull tool will aggravate you until you. Give up give yourself a chance stay sharp
-
My favorite go to tool for engraving is a die sinkers chisel. I bought 3 from Brownell's many years ago and sharpened 1 square, 1 flat and 1 round. I used these for years. Later on I invested in the Lindsey templates and 3/32" HSS blanks because I was having trouble with my eyes and could not get the tools sharpened to m y liking. After cataract surgery I was able to see once again and went back to my die sinkers chisels for hammer engraving and relinquished my Lindsey tooling to my GRS graver max. I really like the weight and feel of the die sinkers chisels. Even mounting up the 3/32" HHS into steel handles the feel was a bit too flimsy for myself.
David
-
The small amount of engraving I have done was done will die sinkers also. They are just easyer for my old hands to grasp and control. Keeping them sharp is also good advice. I also have a small dish with cotton balls in it with tapping fluid soaked in to the cotton. Every inch or so I just lightly touch the graver to the cotton balls. I dont know if it helps much but I do it anyway. ;D
-
If, you're going to push it, a #1 will be fine to learn with. If you're going to use a hammer a larger one might be better.
As mentioned, a good sharp tool is vital and a Lindsey template or another type of sharpening fixture will go a long way in easing the pain of cutting a straight line.
John
-
Watch the DVD again, He shows how to make a graver from a file---they work great, been using one for 3-4 yr. Just keep her "SHARP".....Tom
-
Watch the DVD again, He shows how to make a graver from a file---they work great, been using one for 3-4 yr. Just keep her "SHARP".....Tom
Tom,
Yes I saw that. That's one of the things that made me realize that his graver was a whole heck of a lot bigger than the #1 I got from TOW in that beginners engraving set. Thanks.
Mole Eyes
-
It is not so much the size of the graver but the heel you have on the graver. The heel is the part that does the cutting. The larger the heel the larger the cut. I used to use the larger gravers untill I discovered that I was spending time sharpening the surfaces that did no cutting just to keep the face of the graver in the configuration that I wanted. The smaller the face the less time spent in touching up the point to keep it sharp.
I also converted to using the Lindsey Point over the standard heel. The Lindsey point allows to cut a very slim hair line or you can roll the graver a little and get a wide cut. This allows you to graduate from a slender to wide flare and then back to a slim cut all in one motion. This can be done with the standard heel also but I find it easier to do with the Lindsey point.
The only advantage to larger graver is strength at the face and a lot of that depends on how steep the face angle is, usually the steeper the face the stronger the point.
I know that Heshel uses a Die Sinkers chiesels to make his gravers and he does fabulous work so I think it is what you get accustomed to using.
-
+ 5 on the LINDSAY ENGRAVING route!!!
Here's one of my recent orders included within is the Classic Handpiece with Palm Control, which if you have the $$$, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1160.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq498%2FBrushCountryAg03%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2Fimage-23.jpg&hash=6aee17f75b876e2bfe4d903f3089ffb6d0e28af5) (http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/BrushCountryAg03/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-23.jpg.html)
Before I was able to afford it myself, I also used the Lindsay Chasing Graver Holder.
In addition, (and optional but "almost essential") I would strongly recommend you buy a heavy duty turntable along with some sort of heavy duty graver ball and then find a used drill press stand w/ table on which you would ideally mount your turntable & ball.
Here's a good picture off the internet of what I'm talking about for an "ideal setup" using a stereoscope:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1160.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq498%2FBrushCountryAg03%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2Fimage-30.jpg&hash=31edb3a46f982cb026a9517cae697a43468ce4de) (http://s1160.photobucket.com/user/BrushCountryAg03/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-30.jpg.html)
-
Take a really good look at historical engraving; not just the overall effect, but really look closely at the individual cuts. Probably 95%+ used just basic line engraving and once you study closely you will see lots of wobbly lines, bumpy curves and uneven borders. The point is that longrifle engraving is NOT what you see on Italian shotguns. You can make a handle for a graver out of a piece of oak dowel and get long just fine. The size of the graver itself is really not that important, only the tip is what does the cutting. Put your #1 in the palm handle and use it for small shading lines and such, then get another graver from TOW (I use a #4) and put a handle on it for chasing work. Go to you local home improvement store and get a brass door kickplate (not the brass plated aluminum one). It contains lots of practice plates and a ton of inlays, assuming you have a jeweller's saw. If you don't have one then you have a built in selection for the next present from your wife.
-
It is not so much the size of the graver but the heel you have on the graver. The heel is the part that does the cutting. The larger the heel the larger the cut. I used to use the larger gravers untill I discovered that I was spending time sharpening the surfaces that did no cutting just to keep the face of the graver in the configuration that I wanted. The smaller the face the less time spent in touching up the point to keep it sharp.
I also converted to using the Lindsey Point over the standard heel. The Lindsey point allows to cut a very slim hair line or you can roll the graver a little and get a wide cut. This allows you to graduate from a slender to wide flare and then back to a slim cut all in one motion. This can be done with the standard heel also but I find it easier to do with the Lindsey point.
Thanks, I've spent a couple of hours on the Lindsey site this morning reading up on their products based on what everyone has been saying about them. I've decided to get some HSS blanks and the sharpening tool with the basic template they recommend. As I understand it, it will allow me to make the Lindsey Point you and others recommended from the blanks.
Mole Eyes
-
Take a really good look at historical engraving; not just the overall effect, but really look closely at the individual cuts. Probably 95%+ used just basic line engraving and once you study closely you will see lots of wobbly lines, bumpy curves and uneven borders. The point is that longrifle engraving is NOT what you see on Italian shotguns. You can make a handle for a graver out of a piece of oak dowel and get long just fine. The size of the graver itself is really not that important, only the tip is what does the cutting. Put your #1 in the palm handle and use it for small shading lines and such, then get another graver from TOW (I use a #4) and put a handle on it for chasing work. Go to you local home improvement store and get a brass door kickplate (not the brass plated aluminum one). It contains lots of practice plates and a ton of inlays, assuming you have a jeweller's saw. If you don't have one then you have a built in selection for the next present from your wife.
Lindsey is backordered on the graver holder at the moment. So, I'll do as you suggested and make a holder out of a piece of oak dowel and see how that works out for me. No use spending money on a graver holder if a piece of oak dowel will do the job.
I have a jeweler's saw that gets a lot of use now as well as a lot of sheet brass, so no problem there. Thanks.
Mole Eyes
-
Its probably been said before, but I would heartily recommend that you NOT purchase an expensive modern setup like this. Get one good square steel graver and a nice quality little hammer, then spend all that money you were going to spend on the Lindsay set up and the engraving ball and go to Bowling Green for actual instruction from people who know this work. I layed out for a beautiful big engraving ball and all it does is take up space...it serves no purpose for longrifle work. Later on, in a year or two, you might want to invest in a second graver but even that is a splurge. I never cared much for jeweler's saws either, even on quite ornate pierced boxes. They didn't save me any time and I dropped them. Once you change a bunch of broken blades and have fussed around, the parts can be hacked and filed to finished shape much quicker.
-
Its probably been said before, but I would heartily recommend that you NOT purchase an expensive modern setup like this. Get one good square steel graver and a nice quality little hammer, then spend all that money you were going to spend on the Lindsay set up and the engraving ball and go to Bowling Green for actual instruction from people who know this work. I layed out for a beautiful big engraving ball and all it does is take up space...it serves no purpose for longrifle work. Later on, in a year or two, you might want to invest in a second graver but even that is a splurge. I never cared much for jeweler's saws either, even on quite ornate pierced boxes. They didn't save me any time and I dropped them. Once you change a bunch of broken blades and have fussed around, the parts can be hacked and filed to finished shape much quicker.
Ryan,
I believe in the KISS approach and consequently am only going with some square graver blanks and a sharpening guide with the template to help me get the angles right when I create the cutting edges. A big bucks engraving rig isn't something I want at all, though others may.
However, I haven't experienced the problems you've had with a jeweler's saw. I don't try to force it and I rarely ever break a blade. I find that with the proper coarseness of the blade for the job at hand and sufficient lubing with bee's wax it cuts quickly and smoothly. Of course that's cutting brass and German silver; I've never tried cutting anything else with it.
-
Maybe I should give it another shot...I've got some Lauck and Sheetz stuff in the pipeline that may benefit from it. Beeswax may be the ticket there.
-
I believe in the KISS approach and consequently am only going with some square graver blanks and a sharpening guide
Make your own graver holder from whatever material you have handy. This one is 3/8" aluminum rod, 6" long, and drilled for 1/8" HS lathe bits which are about $1.50 instead of the $5 that others charge. Lindsay can provide you with an 1/8" mandrel to hold the tips in his templates. Alternatively, you can pay the higher price for the 3/32" ones and use his regular setup. A metal holder will transmit your hammer blows more readily to the tip, whereas a wooden one will absorb some of the blow.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FALR%2Fgraverholder.jpg&hash=7d47a13676878bb71ea0ff9c74f7045316981fc5)
-
A standard bench vise is more than OK for engraving,,those high quality European firearms are generally done by holding the parts in nothing more than that.
Standing while chasing as opposed to sitting seems to be the prefered and taught manner in most of the world except the USA. The standard bench vise positioned high and accessable 2/3 the way around it is usually the way they're used.
The engravers 'ball' vise was originally for hand graver work,mostly in the jewelry trades. But has become with some super sizing, a mainstay of the trade now especially with most everyone using air assisted machines.
Add microscopes, turntables, sharpening must-haves and all sorts of extra equipment it's no wonder a person wanting to try metal engraving gets confused and overwelmed by the amount of gadgets and the cost.
Anyway,,a vise doesn't have to be fancy to work,,just sturdy and vibration free,,and something that doesn't give you a back ache in the first 15 minutes of use.
I'd say start with a simple square graver and hammer. By 'square' I mean an included angle on the face of 90*.
Anything less or more I'd call a V graver.
The 90* is easy to sharpen and keep the angle there. Using an 1/8 or 3/32 tool bit to start with gives you the angle right up front. Chose a face angle,,45* is again simple and efficient enough for most work. Put a small lift heal on each side with a simple drag of the graver backwards accross the stone or grit surface. Nothing more than a couple degrees to 5 is needed. Too much and the heal drags on the outside of a curved line as you cut,,that ragged and jagged look to curves you sometimes see.
The Lindsey type sharpening technique helps avoid that by shaping the heal in two distinct planes. It works very well, but you can cut beautifully w/o it. Engravers have done so for centurys.
You are ready to cut.
Scarf off any extra off the top of the face of the graver to get rid of the bulky look but more so to make re-sharpening easier. Less material to remove and easier to keep flat.
My engraving hammer was always a Stanley 2oz ball peen. Big perhaps by most ideas of what an engraver hammer should be, but after struggling early on with a standard thin shaft chasers hammer, I went to that. It was my 'bench hammer' as a gunsmith so I was right at home with it.
After the basics, you'll get into changing face angles, heal, included angle ect for different materials and effects.
I wouldn't bother with all that while trying to simply learn to cut. A 90/45/5* Square graver will do it for you.
After all these years I cut most everything with a 60/45/5* 'V' graver. So much for change.
Wood handle,,metal handle, diameter, length?? Whatever is comfortable. I used wooden handles for nearly 15 years then switched to the square steel 'Belgian' style handles for the next 20.
Now I use an air assist tool as I can't even hold on to a chasing chisel anymore. At least I can still do work. Without them I'd have been done altogether 10yrs ago. Technology is good,,we just don't like the change sometimes.
Everyone is different,,don't be afraid to try different styles of tool bits, handles, ect.
Make some yourself, buy some if they look friendly. You'll settle on one type after a while.
Keep things simple, the trade is difficult enough to learn w/o all the confusing math and special this and that.
Have fun,,
-
I believe in the KISS approach and consequently am only going with some square graver blanks and a sharpening guide
Make your own graver holder from whatever material you have handy. This one is 3/8" aluminum rod, 6" long, and drilled for 1/8" HS lathe bits which are about $1.50 instead of the $5 that others charge. Lindsay can provide you with an 1/8" mandrel to hold the tips in his templates. Alternatively, you can pay the higher price for the 3/32" ones and use his regular setup. A metal holder will transmit your hammer blows more readily to the tip, whereas a wooden one will absorb some of the blow.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi102.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm104%2FML-L%2FALR%2Fgraverholder.jpg&hash=7d47a13676878bb71ea0ff9c74f7045316981fc5)
Thanks TOF, you always have a practical way to accomplish things.
Mole Eyes
-
kutter, that is some really good information for someone looking to start engraving. You are exactly on the money when you say, "Keep things simple, the trade is difficult enough to learn w/o all the confusing math and special this and that". Thanks.
Mole Eyes
-
I've been down this path too and feel compelled to chip in here. First, if you are only going to build a couple of rifles, get someone else to do the engraving for you. It'll save you tons of time practicing, many headaches and money in the long run. But if you've got it as bad as I do there's no holding back. I got the itch to engrave my own guns and bought a square blank engraver and beat the devil out of it not knowing what else to do. Next I got a lesson on how to sharpen gravers. Later, I got introduced to the Lindsey sharpening system and this is the best. It gives you consistent results every time.
I waited years for John Shippers book on engraving (Engraving Historic Firearms) before it finally it came out. It will cost you a few dollars but is INVALUABLE if you are even thinking about giving engraving a try. Shipper's book tells how to engrave scrolls, borders, background, all by giving step by step instructions with plenty of pictures. He uses the hammer and chasing method (of course it works with air engravers too). You can find his book on the NMLRA website.
Keep It Simple is good advice, but you are still going to need a few things. I recommend Shippers book first of all. He shows how to sharpen gravers by hand and gets good results. Next you will need some kind of vice to hold your work. Start with any vice you can turn at least 180 degrees. Between Shippers book, some square gravers, a light hammer and small vice, I think you can find out if you want to go out into deeper water and invest in a ball engravers vice, the Lindsey sharpening system or even then Lindsey engraving system. My pocket book usually helps me decide.
The Lindsey website is great for learning. There is also one called The Engravers Cafe that you should check out. Watch everything you can find. Utube has some how to engrave videos that are good. You can even seek advice on the Engravers Cafe and Lindsey's site and possibly find someone in your area who can give you a couple of lessons (it worked for me). The final thing my mentor told me was, "the rest is practice, now go do that about a hundred times and hopefully you'll get it".
Best of luck. Next thing, ...practice, practice, practice.
-
Like TOF, I like to use a lathe bit set in an aluminum handle. I can send this in PDF format to anyone who wants it. Email me tcurran(at)fairpoint(dot)net, or PM me.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2Fengraving%2FSquareGravergeometry_zps4a5a7c3d.jpg&hash=ccce5644af45ecc2c49abdf7618ec7e477e2b9af) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/engraving/SquareGravergeometry_zps4a5a7c3d.jpg.html)
-
Is there a reason you use aluminum for the handle. I was going to make a couple (for different size tool bits) of metal holders for myself, but I was planing on using steel because I thought the weight would be steadying. I was also going to use a 1/2" x 5" rod to give me better grip and control. You see I lost a good bit of fine motor control in my hands (among other things) due to transverse myelitis, and small, light tools don't work so well for me. I need something larger with some heft to hold on to it. Something long enough to allow me to use leverage to keep the tool in place is also helpful. Does the momentum work too much against you to use steel of the size I am considering? I do use a die sinker chisel for cutting barrel dovetails, but I would find that size, diameter and length, too small for engraving work. I just wouldn't be able to control it. I use a file handle for my current graver.
-
I have a couple of Lindsey's graver handles, they are well made but, I find them slippery to hold because of the polished finish. The other problem I have with the tool handle is, I would like it to have a flat spot or a rib on the handle to use as a reference point when you're chasing so you can FEEL the angle of the point as it's working. I could use grip tape and fix most of the problems. But I always find myself going back to my old wooden handles with the carriage bolt top.
Cheap and easy: A piece of dowel, whatever size you like, and a short carriage bolt and head placed into the top end to transmit blows for hammering, the work end drilled to accept your graver. I also flatten the bottom side where my thumb rides and it works well to control the angle of the tip.
I am totally self taught and this may not work for anyone properly trained. But it works for me.
-
Like Kutter , my hands can no longer hold a chase graver well . As such I stopped engraving for many years. , Some years back I won a Lindsey Classic and I must say it’s a god send .
Yes it’s a little expensive. But IMO worth every cent .
One thing I learned along time ago is that doing engraving is like a lot of other things in that a lot of folks are either into it or they aren’t . If you find yourself one of those who are suddenly fascinated by doing it then you will be looking for new tooling very quickly .
I think you will also find that the quality of period engraving on American long rifles , will leave you frustrated as your progress past it in your skill . The reason for that is that suddenly you will find yourself un satisfied with the work . As was mentioned boarders , cuts , depths of cuts , shading…. are often inconsistent and as you progress in perfecting your skills , its often rather hard to accept those things as being right .
I would agree with the others in that the square graver is the best to start with . Most everything can be done with a simple square graver . Today I use the Lindsey universal point a lot . But I also still have a square with a steeper angle just as Kutter recommends .
I would also agree with purchasing Shippers book . Its very high quality printing , written very well with many examples for you to follow that will help you understand not only designs but direction of cuts …….
When it comes to vices . , a fixed bench vice that you can walk around ,works very well , I used one for years . But at least for me when I moved to a ball type vice , I quickly began to wonder how it was that I ever got along without it . I made mine from a bowling ball and then mounted a self centering vice on the top of it . For a stand I have a stand I made from an old break drum and adjustable shock from an office chair . But frankly since I do most all my work anymore , while under a scope , its does not get adjusted that often .
For just starting out , just as was said by others , you don’t really need all that . But I would pick up a set of Loupes . Even a cheep set will serve you well .
Some may also disagree , but IMO starting to learn to cut on a mild steel practice plates would be the way to go until you get the basics down then move on to brass .
Myself I find practicing on steel to be much easier to maintain a proper depth of cut . IMO its also a lot more forgiving for a less then sharp point . As such you can spend more time learning the basics vs. sharpening a point. Where as with brass with it being much softer , it tends to allow the point to dive , leave jagged edges or simply plow a line vs. cut a line .
Now don’t get me wrong , that’s fine and will help you greatly in learning to keep your graver sharp , which is a “must “ to learn
What you chose to start out with in the way of tooling is really up to you and what you can afford. As was said for centuries folks used nothing but basic hand made tools and turned out wonderful works .
So really it’s a mater of learning to use the tools you have , applying the knowledge and experience that others have gained to those tools when you can .
then practice , practice , practice .
-
When ever I use a hammer and chisel I use the ones very much like Micah described. For professional use I think the GRS GraverMach is the Cadillac system. However probably no one on this forum does some of the stuff I do so it's not too relative. with few exceptions you can do anything that was done on an American mad muzzle loader with a chisel and hammer. I have only seen one American muzzle loader with hand push engraving on it. It was a gun made as a presentation piece by Simon North and was engraved by a engraver from what became the American banknote company as I recall.
-
Now Jerry ;D,,,, we have went down this road before lol compared to the Lindsey the GRS is a pinto ., if the Lindsey is good enough to be used by the likes of Coggan ,Cover,Bleile and /or Baptiste, what does that say :D.
you and i both know that the GRS buzzes like an old Johnny tractor . needs springs to work properly and has to have its own GRS specific regulating box taking up space on the bench like some life suport mechine .. LOL . Just yanking your chain .
Hope to see you up at Durkee this coming weekend .
Missed you at Seneca ,.you about done with that set of barrels ??
-
I use aluminum handles because they are light, and transmit the force well. Steel handles are so heavy, they take a lot of hit to get them moving, so you lose a percentage of control.
The one-piece die sinker chisels are very good, by the way. Slip a grip of surgical tubing over the shank, for a a softer feel, less fatigue.
I agree with Jerry that most American work is hammer and chisel.
This Kuntz patchbox appears to be push graved for shading. Maybe Hammer/chisel for the bolder lines. It's quite crude by today's standard, but does the job with beauty and grace. There is a a lot of 'folk' factor in American Kentucky graving, and it's good to keep in mind that people like you and me were making these works. These were men, not gods.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FOriginal%2520gun%2520photos%2FDSC_3873.jpg&hash=1c7f845db7eabbd14d49555fbd13c4b3cdebc7a1) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/Tom45-70/media/Original%20gun%20photos/DSC_3873.jpg.html)
-
agree with Jerry that most American work is hammer and chisel.
This Kuntz patchbox appears to be push graved for shading. Maybe Hammer/chisel for the bolder lines. It's quite crude by today's standard, but does the job with beauty and grace. There is a a lot of 'folk' factor in American Kentucky graving, and it's good to keep in mind that people like you and me were making these works. These were men, not gods.
I would agree Acer . however frankly even rather crude by period standards .
Still never the less , appealing in its context.
That however is the point I was trying to make in that at least for me , I have found it very hard to keep to that crudeness. Its not the design but the actual cut which IMO plays just as much of a factor.
Take the Kuntz piece that you posted . Imo wonderful context and layout .
But the cut itself wouldn’t pass near anything . there are areas that show moderate control and others that show no control . There just is a whole lot that we strive not to do as we define quality .
That IMO is the hard part, if one is truly trying to recreate the type of engravings often seen on these rifles is to not exceed the quality of work . Which can be very hard to do considering many of us take most every aspect to a much greater level then a great many of the originals .
I think also that a lot of times folks get the impression that high end work can only be achieved with high end tools like the Lindsey or GRS . that’s just not true.
Even today a lot of those simply magnificently detailed works are done with chase and push gravers .
No mater what one uses though , it still comes down to practice , knowledge and the application of both with the tools one has .
Speaking for myself , I don’t think there has ever been a time I have not learned something from talking with Jerry even though he uses a different tool then I , the principles are still much the same.
He uses a GRS , I didn’t like the GRS . I mostly use the different sharpening templates that Steve sells. Jerry prefers to chose his own angles . When I look at his work first hand and ask about a given cut , how it was done , he is always good for an answer . So I try his approach with the tool I use be it my Lindsey classic , chase or push .
Some times I get good results , other times I have to annoy him some more on the subject LOL .
I think however we are getting somewhat away from the original question
-
Hi Moleeyes,
A few years ago I posted the following thoughts on learning to engrave. You may find them helpful:
A couple of recent threads posed by folks trying to get started with engraving motivated me to start this thread. For most people, engraving probably is one of the most intimidating skills to learn. You get everything just right on your gun, the inletting, architecture, inlays, carving, and finish, and then risk it all trying to scratch in a few attractive lines. Unfortunately, the books and videos available are somewhat helpful but their value is pretty limited. If you are lucky to have access to a class with a good instructor, that is probably the best option. If you are like me, your options for training are limited and you end up mostly teaching yourself. Also, the intimidating nature of engraving tends to make folks reluctant to spend much money on it when they begin because they are not sure they can do it and they don’t want to waste limited funds. Consequently, the perceived difficulty of engraving becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for some because they don’t invest money in the critical rudiments and thus find it too hard to do and give up trying. With that in mind, I thought I would share a few observations about the process of learning to engrave:
Don’t get hung up on the tools. You only need a large square graver for outlining and borders, a small square for shading and details, and a small flat for removing backgrounds. You can make chisel handles and a lightweight chasing hammer will do. Spend some money on a good setup for sharpening. I recommend stones and the Lindsay templates but there are other options. Just make sure you have a system that does the job well and is easy to do. You must sharpen your graver very, very often and the last thing you need is some awkward setup that makes sharpening a tedious chore. It should just take a few moments with little fuss or you simply won't do it when you should.
Spend some thought and money on lighting and magnification. You cannot engrave what you cannot see. You must see the tip of the graver clearly or you will never engrave details very well. In addition, create a vise system that allows you to spin the work and tilt it as needed. Lighting, magnification, and a vise system are very important and unless you spend the time and resources on obtaining some workable version of them, engraving will be intimidating indeed.
Don't try to do scroll work until you master engraving a line that is even and straight. Practice thin and thick lines that follow a border or another line. Master parallel lines and the thick and thin border. In fact, if you never do anything more than a thick and thin border you will have achieved a lot. That border is often all you need to make an inlay, lock, butt plate, or trigger guard look like a million bucks.
After mastering lines, try scolls, but first learn to draw them smoothly and transfer your designs to the metal. Here is where a problem arises. First, if you cannot draw a smooth curve or good design, you cannot engrave it either. Second, you need a precise image of your design on the metal. Many buy layout white or Chinese white, coat the metal and draw the design on with a pencil. Probably most of you are not steady enough to draw a smooth clean design without "sketching" it with the pencil. Sketching results in fuzzy imprecise lines that are difficult to follow accurately with the graver because the width of the sketched pencil mark is several times the width of the engraved line. The imprecision of the line is often enough to make your engraved results look rough. If you draw directly on the metal, use a very sharp pencil for a thin line and practice drawing smooth shapes without resorting to "sketching" them. I suggest that you use a mechanical pencil with 0.3mm leads sharpened to a tiny point using sand paper or a fine file. Better are the transfer solutions available to copy images from transparencies produced by inkjet or laserjet printers. Keep in mind, that after having a sharp graver and learning to cut a smooth line, nothing improves your engraving more than a good design accurately transferred to the metal.
At first don't worry about fancy cuts, angling the graver for making lines grow thick, removing background and other sophisticated methods and skills. Just learn to cut smooth lines of even thickness. If you master that and can draw designs well you will produce engraving equal to or probably better than the vast majority of work found on original long rifles. Finally, there are many technical details and methods to eventually absorb, but the few things I mentioned are the key things that I found really mattered as I learned and continue to learn.
dave
-
I'd like to toss out a reminder that original longrifles were made to be admired just as a common rifle is now days, held in the hands at arms length.
The picture that acer posted is section of the patchbox finial, and as shown is about 5 or 10 times larger than actual size. If you were to shrink that picture down to about a 2" X 2" size and hold it about 18" away from your eyes, it would look pretty good! And that would be about the way it was made to be viewed.
Now days it's popular to crank up the magnification to study the tiniest of detail, but these old guns weren't made with that expectation. For that matter, have you ever examined a fancy engraved 19th century Colt or Winchester done by any of the Very Best engravers, under magnification? Basically it looks like they used a Caterpillar tractor to ram their tool through the metal! But the engraving looks fine at arms length...
So what the heck, the old guys weren't as good as the modern guys? Yeah, okay. And the great guys today won't be as good as tomorrows great guys either...
So Molee, you have a lot of good advice here and various ways to go. Personally I'd keep it simple for now. A good first lesson is to cut a straight line, keeping width and depth consistent. And mastering just that is important in the long run..
John
-
Capchee
It is true that a lot of top engravers use the Lindsey system and it is a good system but I highly suspect they may receive some incentive and I am pretty sure that is not all they use because there is some things it just isn't as good at as some other hand pieces are. I have a airtact and it is basically the same as the Lindsey. I seldom use it. I have the option of three different hand pieces and a rotary plus an air oulet. All that being said nobody on this forum will probably ever do the stuff I do.
AND you better be real sharp at Durkey or I'll clean your clock on the rifle trail.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjwh-flintlocks.net%2Fjs-muzzle.jpg&hash=8b761ce09938c592c2de93bd35be8b6e87bda150)
-
Make things to the best of your ability. You will find over time your skills increase with practice and determination. Keep a photo journal of your work, and you will see improvement year by year. You can't be good at something just because you want to be. ( I suffer from this affliction) It takes dedication and PRACTICE.
The next most important thing in engraving is education. Some things are so difficult to learn/teach by the typed word. Get yourself some hands on, person-to-person teaching. In 2007, I took a ten day engraving course with Jerry, and it changed my engraving life, opened up a whole new world. Best investment I ever made in my own education. GRS offers courses, Lindsay may as well, and there are other engravers, such as Sam Alfano who teach.
As far as 'dumbing down' the engraving, I think we do a disservice to our forebears. I try to emulate the style of what I think is right for a certain gun, for the culture, and the time period. I also fit some of my own character and creative into the project. In this way, I feel I honor the past and honor my own needs.
For me, Jerry's most important lesson was to learn and understand how to sharpen and maintain a cutter. Period.
With that comes different geometries for cutting different materials, and styles of cutters for producing a certain kind of line for the effect you wish to have in your engraving.
In short, if you want to get serious about this, get some hands on education.
:D :D :D
-
Make things to the best of your ability. You will find over time your skills increase with practice and determination. ...
The next most important thing in engraving is education. Some things are so difficult to learn/teach by the typed word. Get yourself some hands on, person-to-person teaching.
I'd say Acer nailed it here. I fought with engraving for ...decades...Talking with Mike Miller one time, he recommended I go and do a engraving course like the NMLRA holds...I did and spending a week with Wallace pointing out nuances ...and how in blazes to sharpen a graver!... made the difference. Wallace commented that after the course and doing 20 minutes of graving or so a day for a few months you could engrave as well as most of the 18th century masters...I think that point was reiterated here on the board...these guys were gun makers not professional photoplate engravers.
Practice and determination ...and a little help from your friends...goes a long way to giving you confidence.
John
-
AND you better be real sharp at Durkey or I'll clean your clock on the rifle trail.
ohhh its on old man !!!!! be sur to bring your meds , i dont want to here any exscusses or crying ;D
bring you sxs and we will shot some clays to
that one of the nicest barrels i have seen you do Jerry . nicly done
-
I noticed that once I started trying to engrave that when I was studying an antique piece I became more aware of the individual cuts rather than the overall pattern. This, in association with having seen some examples of fine engraving, can make historical engravings appear rather crude. The 18th century customer most likely had not been exposed to some of the European pieces, especially in a frontier area gun shop, so it was not the issue that can be with us. Also, in a era prior to the industrial revolution, handwork which is filled with abberations, was the norm so a less than perfect execution was not as much of an issue. Since we do this as a hobby, and in a few rare cases a profession we tend to be unsatisfied with anything short of perfection. That can produce some outstanding rifles, but in reality they are not necessarily historically correct.
The bottom line is that engraving does not have to be perfect to be right. Neither does it have to be extensive. It can be suprising how just a few scratches can transform an otherwise plain surface into something more.
-
PeteG,
In America there was very little market for perfection. Some people are born who are never satisfied with anything less than perfection. Thank God for that. What kind of world would we have otherwise
-
Some folks really want quality, and others are happy with a little 'bling'.