AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Luke MacGillie on February 02, 2015, 05:56:09 AM
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Got me a wondering, Are Beaver Going to Shine Again? Will there be Tipi's for as far as the eye can see in the Laughery Valley?
With this new Mountain Man movie coming out next Christmas, are the 18th Centuries days numbered?
I walked away from pretty much all things 18th Century a little more than a year ago. Back doing/making Rocky Mountain fur trade gear and having the time of my life. I've had more than one person comment that they were were going to head that way as well, to try and return to the heyday of Buckskinning.
Anyone else seeing this in the type of guns and gear that customers are wanting?
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There's a new mountain man film coming out?
Dan
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There's a new mountain man film coming out?
Dan
yep
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/01/21/leonardio-dicaprio-the-revenant
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( May I be dipped in gall and et fer the devils tater !!! )Mountain doings are gonna shine agin, Waugh !
Luke, you betcha beavers, bound to shine agin! Im a smiling like a fox a eatin yallerjackits and caint wait fer the shindig to get started,....waugh!
topknot
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The film purports to tell the true story of Hugh Glass. But is that the true story???
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I wonder if anyone realy knows all the facts thus the true story. I cant think that Hollywood does or will represent them with out some added color.
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I don't know Luke, I've been wondering about what seems to be a fad lately of big fat butted "iron" mounted 18th century rifles just like my Grandpa used to kill pesky cougars.
I'm dreaming of a flintlock canoe gun with a carbon fiber stock.
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Oh no, not Hawken rifles and leather again. I got over that affliction in the early 80's. :P
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Hawken's back? Luckily I've been vaccinated, so I know I can't catch the affliction making it's 3rd rounds! ::)
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I built myself a Hawken back ~1980, traded it off, acquired another, traded it off and recently traded off my third one for a nice 1730s French Dragoon pistol....for some reason I am attracted to Hawkens, but can't justify keeping them....on the rare occasions I drift spiritually into the early 19th century I have several longrifles that do the trick for me. My old buckskinning group broke up in the late 1990s and I do sorta miss it. It was where I started years ago. Still could go afield as a 1820s/30s trapper, even without the good ol' [and typically later period] Hawken. Good hunting rifles, though.
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I am probably best known for my "Golden Age" longrifles and German Jaegers, but I build Hawkens and a few other plains rifles quite often. They never did “go under" in my shop.Last year alone I made 3 of them that were ordered by various customers.
Funny thing---- I live in the Wind River valley. Right where the "beaver shined" and the trappers came to haven on earth.
I am often asked to make recreations of the guns that were used by the famous trappers who make the Winds famous, but I have never made one for a man or woman who lives in Wyoming let alone the wind rifle country.
Maybe my location just causes hunters and shooters to ask for them when they come here. Who knows.
But the country still cries out to those that come here and walk in these mountains and down the Wind River.
Shine again....?
You mean shine still!
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Well, if the still picture is any indicator, I wouldn't expect much. His frizzen is open, his hammer is down, and I don't see any smoke. Sounds like another Jeremiah Jerkweed movie generated by Hollywierd to me. Time will tell. It will all hinge on who they get as an advisor.
Hungry Horse
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For us east of the Mississippi I think it's gonna be nothing but moonshine, and Snuffy Smith type gun stuff, maybe some beatleboots.
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I have always liked the fur trade and the history of it.
Old Joe Meek was born and raised about 2 miles from where I live.
I have always liked the Hawken rifles.
sz I have always liked the Wind River Area and all the history that goes along with it. You live in a nice part of our beautiful country.
I hope the movie represents the Mountain Man and the fur trade as it should be. Looking forward to seeing it.
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Well, if the still picture is any indicator, I wouldn't expect much. His frizzen is open, his hammer is down, and I don't see any smoke. Sounds like another Jeremiah Jerkweed movie generated by Hollywierd to me. Time will tell. It will all hinge on who they get as an advisor.
Hungry Horse
Well, at least "mountain Man" is not carrying a T/C!!!!!!!!!!
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I have always liked the fur trade and the history of it.
Old Joe Meek was born and raised about 2 miles from where I live.
I have always liked the Hawken rifles.
sz I have always liked the Wind River Area and all the history that goes along with it. You live in a nice part of our beautiful country.
I hope the movie represents the Mountain Man and the fur trade as it should be. Looking forward to seeing it.
You ever see a photo of Joe Meeks rifle? {at least that is who I remember} It is in The book Plains Rifles by Hanson. The thing looks for all the world like a piece of trash import kit gun like they used to sell in the 1970s--from Spain , Japan,or Italy, etc....A current Traditions longrifle looks as good.
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"Old Sally" does indeed look like a cheap kit gun. The back action lock, and two piece stock, are anything but what we would expect from a genuine trapper/trader like Joe Meeks. Oh, by the way, the term "mountain man" is a modern term, most likely coined by Remington, when he did all his drawings of genuine "mountain men' in the 1870's.
Hungry Horse
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I knew nothing about nothing regarding black powder, flintlocks, or muzzle loaders when I first came across my first, one and only primitive rifle over two years ago - in fact at that time, the term "black" to me connoted a black rifle whose model number was prefaced by "AR-somethingorother."
Divine Providence saw fit to bring a Doug Scott full stock flintlock Hawken into my life, and I am changed for the better.
Now I just need to learn how to dress a deer, and I am ready for these same "old timey" events which the OP is referencing, I think....
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I knew nothing about nothing regarding black powder, flintlocks, or muzzle loaders when I first came across my first, one and only primitive rifle over two years ago - in fact at that time, the term "black" to me connoted a black rifle whose model number was prefaced by "AR-somethingorother."
Divine Providence saw fit to bring a Doug Scott full stock flintlock Hawken into my life, and I am changed for the better.
Now I just need to learn how to dress a deer, and I am ready for these same "old timey" events which the OP is referencing, I think....
I would certainly share a camp and a cup of coffee with you and pass on any knowlege that I can. I spend my days dealing with Lectric Gatling Guns, SCAR's and SOPMOD'd M4's and the like, but I grew up in the heyday of Buckskinning, and while I took a 30 some year jaunt into reenacting, I dont rightly care much to reenact anything other than Friendship ca 1976.......
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For us east of the Mississippi I think it's gonna be nothing but moonshine, and Snuffy Smith type gun stuff, maybe some beatleboots.
MMMMMMMMM, beatle boots......... ;D
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Well... I think it should be an interesting movie to see especially considering what there is to choose from these days.
Hugh Glasses story though... wondering how they could make a full length movie about it... even though it is very well documented by so many different sources. Think they might "hollywood" it up a bit? Ya think? Hawken rifles are good... mountain man movies are great bring them on.... somebody should even make a decent western these days that would be nice.
I want to see the part were Di Caprio gets attacked and torn to shreds by a grizzly. I might even want to see that on a big screen.
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Well, if the still picture is any indicator, I wouldn't expect much. His frizzen is open, his hammer is down, and I don't see any smoke. Sounds like another Jeremiah Jerkweed movie generated by Hollywierd to me. Time will tell. It will all hinge on who they get as an advisor.
Hungry Horse
You don't like the movie Jeremiah Johnson with Redford? that is a classic! What kind of movies do you like then??? Huh?
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Jeremiah Johnson is a good movie, but it isn't close to historically accurate. I have it on disc and enjoy watching it on a winter's night, but part of the fun is pointing out all the Hollywood goofs.
Dan
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Are we talkin' about the same movie? Is this the one where Redford looks like the costuming department shopped street vendors in Tijuana for his outfit? And what about the the dead guy, unmolested by wild animals, in the rocky mountains, in winter, with a perfectly usable "Hawken" still in his hands. If it wasn't for Will Gere it would have been a bomb. REALLY, this is a good movie? On what planet?
Hungry Horse
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H H I agree that Jeremiah Johnson was about as inaccurate as you can get with Redfords rifles and gear but lets not forget most movies are made as entertainment not historical documentaries. As such they take a grain of truth (maybe) and embellish it with lots of good old fashion shootem up and romance and create entertainment ( again maybe). A true documentary on the average fur traper during the fur trade era would have a very small audience indeed. We who really desire total accuracy in these matters are a very small minority of viewers. Truth is most don't care about accuracy or wouldn't recognize accurate portrayal of rifles and other gear if it happened. Probably not fifteen people between Montgomery and the Tennessee line knows the difference between a Siler lock and late Ketland or between a Hawken or Pennsylvania rifle. To top it off they don't care. Only a few of us do. Tim
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I knew nothing about nothing regarding black powder, flintlocks, or muzzle loaders when I first came across my first, one and only primitive rifle over two years ago - in fact at that time, the term "black" to me connoted a black rifle whose model number was prefaced by "AR-somethingorother."
Divine Providence saw fit to bring a Doug Scott full stock flintlock Hawken into my life, and I am changed for the better.
Now I just need to learn how to dress a deer, and I am ready for these same "old timey" events which the OP is referencing, I think....
I would certainly share a camp and a cup of coffee with you and pass on any knowlege that I can. I spend my days dealing with Lectric Gatling Guns, SCAR's and SOPMOD'd M4's and the like, but I grew up in the heyday of Buckskinning, and while I took a 30 some year jaunt into reenacting, I dont rightly care much to reenact anything other than Friendship ca 1976.......
Luke, your post reminded me of being at KAF back in 2011; my hooch was in Deep South and on some certain Thursdays around 0100 I was woken by the sweet sweet sounds of mini gun training just a scant thousand meters away! Actually got used to that, and that was not bad compared to the one night I was in Camp Leatherneck, spending the night at my company's camp when I learned that we were located directly beside the MLRS battery and the Marines apparently identified a target at 0330. Being woken up by one of those going off unannounced is a real experience to be sure!
I would dearly love to learn about buckskinning, but even more so I think about my young nieces and nephews (my wife and I are not blessed with children of our own) who are at the right age to really absorb and appreciate this kind of lifestyle; my brother and sister-in-law recently bought a farm in central Virginia and relocated their six children there from urban New Jersey and the kids are just now handling their first BB guns and .22 rifles on a 50-acre working cattle farm.
I will be sending a separate PM, and thank you again for your offer!
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Jeremiah Johnson is a good movie, but it isn't close to historically accurate. I have it on disc and enjoy watching it on a winter's night, but part of the fun is pointing out all the Hollywood goofs.
Dan
I watched "Jeremiah Johnson"years ago when it was new.The least they could have done was get an actor
that looked mean enough to bite the head off a nail like Charles Bronson,Neville Brand or Richard Boone.
Robert Redford and his brass&pine rifle didn't get it for me.
Bob Roller
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All the good movies have horrible flaws no matter if its the big sky, Jeremiah Johnson or even The Mountain Men, but historical movies get people interested in old time ways. They feed the buckskinning and reenacting cultures with new recruits.
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All historical fiction is fictitious history. Read: a pack of lies. ::)
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Are we talkin' about the same movie? Is this the one where Redford looks like the costuming department shopped street vendors in Tijuana for his outfit? And what about the the dead guy, unmolested by wild animals, in the rocky mountains, in winter, with a perfectly usable "Hawken" still in his hands. If it wasn't for Will Gere it would have been a bomb. REALLY, this is a good movie? On what planet?
Hungry Horse
As I pointed out, it is not historically accurate, but it is entertaining and it's fun to point out the inaccuracies. I agree that Will Geer is the best part of the film.
Dan
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I agree Bob about the choice of actor,but I do like the Scenery and the Music. I will watch this new one if I get a chance.
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My goodness, Jeremiah Johnson was released in 1972, for God sakes. For 1972 it was awesome! How many people even knew what a Hawken rifle was back then, except for a few folks. Yes, it is kind of hokey for the purist types, but look at photos of Friendship during 1972! The movie helped put me on the path which I still am enjoying today. Black powder rifles, American history, Rondezvous and lifetime friends.
So yes, bring on the Hawken rifles, leather and BEARDS, don't forget BEARDS!
Doug T. (with a big ol' smile)
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Man, I wish you hadn't said 1972, like we were hunting' mastodons with spears back then. Oh, with beards of course.
Hungry Horse
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(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi21.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb278%2Fmontourseth%2F10850014_10153012792138319_4105138247005433817_n_zpsoummyfxu.jpg&hash=c76c670a06ea404f76ed74e8fce3ac1996fef005) (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/montourseth/media/10850014_10153012792138319_4105138247005433817_n_zpsoummyfxu.jpg.html)
Now we hunt mastadons with Hawken Rifles, and still got beards.......
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"Old Sally" does indeed look like a cheap kit gun. The back action lock, and two piece stock, are anything but what we would expect from a genuine trapper/trader like Joe Meeks. Oh, by the way, the term "mountain man" is a modern term, most likely coined by Remington, when he did all his drawings of genuine "mountain men' in the 1870's. Hungry Horse
Sorry but the term mountain man is not by any means a modern term coined by Remington. Francis Parkman used the term consistently in his book "The Oregon Trail" to describe the Rocky Mtn trappers aka mountaineers. The book was first published in 1849.
The rifle known as Old Sally is not the original Old Sally - it is a gun first made in 1839 by German immigrants in Texas. A study has been done on it but I don't know if it has been published.
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While a Hawken is not needed to "be" a Mountain Man the evolved Hawken is probably the best medium bore hunting rifle for durability. It was specifically designed for hard use in remote areas. So the rifles were built to take more knocks.
Dan
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"Old Sally" does indeed look like a cheap kit gun. The back action lock, and two piece stock, are anything but what we would expect from a genuine trapper/trader like Joe Meeks. Oh, by the way, the term "mountain man" is a modern term, most likely coined by Remington, when he did all his drawings of genuine "mountain men' in the 1870's.
Hungry Horse
Page 202 of "Adventures in Mexico and The Rocky Mountains". I am sure there are others as well.
Dan
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So what are the odds that Glass carried a Hawken himself like some of the stories say?
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Didn't Hollywood already make a movie about Hugh Glass, with Richard Harris playing Glass?
-Ron
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"Man in the Wilderness"...in that one Glass's gun was a banded musket wasn't it?
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So what are the odds that Glass carried a Hawken himself like some of the stories say?
I am on my phone at the moment as the govt computer has been IP banned by this forum..
I have a PDF of the Glass story as published in the NY Speculator, 14 June 1825. In the article it says only that the rifle was considered the best in the entire party, and that Glass was attacked before he could set the triggers.
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Sounds like it could be the article by Hall? Or based upon it?
I think 1825 is a pretty early telling of it, and the one by Judge Hall
and his brother was one of the first, though they used a pen name
or published anonymously I think.
So many versions of this story are out there...even members of
his party at the time couldn't all tell it the same it seems....but one story says he captured a Hawken when he was a Pawnee brave, and that was the gun he used on the bear...one version (Clyman?) also states that his shot eventually killed the bear, just not quick enough? Then another, like you say, says he never got a shot off...
tc
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I am on my phone at the moment as the govt computer has been IP banned by this forum..
Don't think the govt IP has been blocked from our server. Check your PM's for more info.
Dennis
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Luke - FWIW, it's still shining times here in the Southern Rockies and IMO it's never been gone for those of us who care.....
as for Hugh and a Hawken, definitely possible and they weren't just for the high muckety mucks - several were shipped to Ft Union as early as 1829 as regular trade items
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The last line in that movie, "Man in the Wilderness" got me wondering, 'I'm going home" as Richard Harris walks off. OK, how you suppose on getting there? In the middle of winter in the Rocky Mountains, wait for the next bus?
Not to bad of a movie but it could have been better if someone did their homework. Same with Jeremiah Johnson.
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Say what you will about Jeremiah Johnson or any of the other semi corny mountain man movies, lots of (forest through the trees outlooks). I do the same as well, but its great to be able to know the difference between a thunderhead and a jet stream.
I also know that without those movies I would have been still hunting elk with a 30-40 Krag or some fancy checkered bolt action. Luckily I had enough of an imagination back then to see past the Indian chief wearing the Rolex in that old western, and glanced into the real future that brought my dad, uncle, brother, friends and myself together to countless weeks in hunting camps high in the Idaho mountains, comparing each others most recent built kit riles, and wishing I could afford one of those GRRW rifes I saw in that magazine, and the blanket shoots at the old rifle range where I won the 100 yard offhand with my TC Sharon barreled 50. Without those old Hollywood movies, I would have most likely never had the chance to learn how to throw a hawk or start a fire with a piece of rock. The real memories that were created that I have been able to pass on to my sons was worth it and I will always have a special liking for Brian Keith and Redford for that.
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JR, you make some very good points here. Without films like these, many people would never have gotten into muzzleloading and learned of the historical importance that these firearms have. And we might not have near as many fine gun makers as we do.
The "faux" Hawkens and mass produced long rifles brought a lot of folks to muzzleloading and led to them wanting better guns of historically correct design. Inaccuracies in the design of the mass production guns and in these early films aside, they helped to make muzzleloading what it is today.
Dan
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"He said he's got enough bear claws."
Hokey, smokey, pokey. Yep. Johnson & Cris Lapp got many of the peoples doing this stuff we do along with Disney's Davie & Dan'l.
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Next time you watch Jeremiah Johnson pay close attention to the gun Paints His Shirt Red is holding while watching Jeremiah fish appears to be a side by side one side rifled and one side smooth. This probably is an original. What do you think?
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Say what you will about Jeremiah Johnson or any of the other semi corny mountain man movies, lots of (forest through the trees outlooks). I do the same as well, but its great to be able to know the difference between a thunderhead and a jet stream.
I also know that without those movies I would have been still hunting elk with a 30-40 Krag or some fancy checkered bolt action. Luckily I had enough of an imagination back then to see past the Indian chief wearing the Rolex in that old western, and glanced into the real future that brought my dad, uncle, brother, friends and myself together to countless weeks in hunting camps high in the Idaho mountains, comparing each others most recent built kit riles, and wishing I could afford one of those GRRW rifes I saw in that magazine, and the blanket shoots at the old rifle range where I won the 100 yard offhand with my TC Sharon barreled 50. Without those old Hollywood movies, I would have most likely never had the chance to learn how to throw a hawk or start a fire with a piece of rock. The real memories that were created that I have been able to pass on to my sons was worth it and I will always have a special liking for Brian Keith and Redford for that.
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Exactly. Well said!
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Say what you will about Jeremiah Johnson or any of the other semi corny mountain man movies, lots of (forest through the trees outlooks). I do the same as well, but its great to be able to know the difference between a thunderhead and a jet stream.
I also know that without those movies I would have been still hunting elk with a 30-40 Krag or some fancy checkered bolt action. Luckily I had enough of an imagination back then to see past the Indian chief wearing the Rolex in that old western, and glanced into the real future that brought my dad, uncle, brother, friends and myself together to countless weeks in hunting camps high in the Idaho mountains, comparing each others most recent built kit riles, and wishing I could afford one of those GRRW rifes I saw in that magazine, and the blanket shoots at the old rifle range where I won the 100 yard offhand with my TC Sharon barreled 50. Without those old Hollywood movies, I would have most likely never had the chance to learn how to throw a hawk or start a fire with a piece of rock. The real memories that were created that I have been able to pass on to my sons was worth it and I will always have a special liking for Brian Keith and Redford for that.
Absolutely!
I was the biggest stitch counter when I was reenacting, and still am in my non public endeavors these days but the debt that we owe to all the historical movies, you just cant put a price on that.
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Next time you watch Jeremiah Johnson pay close attention to the gun Paints His Shirt Red is holding while watching Jeremiah fish appears to be a side by side one side rifled and one side smooth. This probably is an original. What do you think?
A lot of the movies used original guns in them. And a lot of modern made ones, just disguised. Several years ago Little Johns Auction sold off the collection of Stembridge Armory, who supplied weapons to Hollywood for many years.
Check this link and look through the inventory; http://www.originalprop.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/little-johns-auction-service-stembridge-armory-collection.pdf
Charlton Heston's rifle from The Mountain Men is Lot # 103. Other guns from that movie are Lot's 102, 130 and 131.
After the auction, I ended up with lot 96, a rifle used in Sgt. York with Gary Cooper. Though a bit messed up, it was originally made by Nicolas Hawk.
John
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As we all know, there were a great variety of rifles used on the frontier through time. A lot of the early fur trappers used plain ol' PA made rifles, as from Lancaster and other points east. The Hawken boys set up pretty early in the "mountain man " period and we know some of the lads toted their rifles--especially in the later years. The Hawken rifles were [are] great hunting guns and their use as such lasted into the 1870s at least. And they were not all big bores. A former neighbor of mine had his great grandaddy's Sam Hawken rilfe that he took to Arizona when he pioneered out there. It was a ~.32 +/-! It was the first real Hawken I ever held [this was ca 1966]. I don't remember what date he took the rifle out there, but the style was typical of the percussion rifles they made, just small bore. Obviously he was not a big game hunter...
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The Hawkens made squirrel rifles, too. This sounds like one of them. Check Don Stith's website for some photos of one.
Dan
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As we all know, there were a great variety of rifles used on the frontier through time. A lot of the early fur trappers used plain ol' PA made rifles, as from Lancaster and other points east. The Hawken boys set up pretty early in the "mountain man " period and we know some of the lads toted their rifles--especially in the later years. The Hawken rifles were [are] great hunting guns and their use as such lasted into the 1870s at least. And they were not all big bores. A former neighbor of mine had his great grandaddy's Sam Hawken rilfe that he took to Arizona when he pioneered out there. It was a ~.32 +/-! It was the first real Hawken I ever held [this was ca 1966]. I don't remember what date he took the rifle out there, but the style was typical of the percussion rifles they made, just small bore. Obviously he was not a big game hunter...
I wonder if it may have had a bullet twist?
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As we all know, there were a great variety of rifles used on the frontier through time. A lot of the early fur trappers used plain ol' PA made rifles, as from Lancaster and other points east. The Hawken boys set up pretty early in the "mountain man " period and we know some of the lads toted their rifles--especially in the later years. The Hawken rifles were [are] great hunting guns and their use as such lasted into the 1870s at least. And they were not all big bores. A former neighbor of mine had his great grandaddy's Sam Hawken rilfe that he took to Arizona when he pioneered out there. It was a ~.32 +/-! It was the first real Hawken I ever held [this was ca 1966]. I don't remember what date he took the rifle out there, but the style was typical of the percussion rifles they made, just small bore. Obviously he was not a big game hunter...
I wonder if it may have had a bullet twist?
Good question and I don't know....it was sure a fine condition old rifle though...it was a typical half stock just like its big brothers.
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Oh!!!!! you notty boyz!!!! ;D ;D
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Next time you watch Jeremiah Johnson pay close attention to the gun Paints His Shirt Red is holding while watching Jeremiah fish appears to be a side by side one side rifled and one side smooth. This probably is an original. What do you think?
I have watched that scene several times, and thought greatly of the prop department to have such an unusual gun in that location and time.
Not that it could not have happened.
The native American Indian was a trader, and also knew the value of such an arm.
Even today, how often do we see such a combination gun?
Fred
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Well, if the still picture is any indicator, I wouldn't expect much. His frizzen is open, his hammer is down, and I don't see any smoke. Sounds like another Jeremiah Jerkweed movie generated by Hollywierd to me. Time will tell. It will all hinge on who they get as an advisor.
Hungry Horse
Maybe he had a misfire. Maybe it's a long hold after he took a shot and the wind blew away the smoke. Maybe he's just checking his sights to see where he left his bubble gum. At least it's a flintlock!
I started out in this crazy hobby back in the 70's when I was the only one in the muzzleloading bunch who insisted on building and shooting my own flintlock, and was roundly ridiculed for shooting that @!*% hiss-boomer when there were perfectly good TC Hawkens available to shoot. I think time has vindicated me, but as they say, what goes around comes around. I expect I'll watch the movie when it comes out.
Hemo
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I'm still stuck on "Beatleboots," lol!