All these Hawken Threads?

[Buckingham]

I knew nothing about nothing regarding black powder, flintlocks, or muzzle loaders when I first came across my  first, one and only primitive rifle over two years ago - in fact at that time, the term "black" to me connoted a black rifle whose model number was prefaced by  "AR-somethingorother."

Divine Providence saw fit to bring a Doug Scott full stock flintlock Hawken into my life, and I am changed for the better.

Now I just need to learn how to dress a deer, and I am ready for these same "old timey" events which the OP is referencing, I think....

I would certainly share a camp and a cup of coffee with you and pass on any knowlege that I can.  I spend my days dealing with Lectric Gatling Guns, SCAR's and SOPMOD'd M4's and the like, but I grew up in the heyday of Buckskinning, and while I took a 30 some year jaunt into reenacting, I dont rightly care much to reenact anything other than Friendship ca 1976.......

Luke, your post reminded me of being at KAF back in 2011; my hooch was in Deep South and on some certain Thursdays around 0100 I was woken by the sweet sweet sounds of mini gun training just a scant thousand meters away!  Actually got used to that, and that was not bad compared to the one night I was in Camp Leatherneck, spending the night at my company's camp when I learned that we were located directly beside the MLRS battery and the Marines apparently identified a target at 0330.  Being woken up by one of those going off unannounced is a real experience to be sure!

I would dearly love to learn about buckskinning, but even more so I think about my young nieces and nephews (my wife and I are not blessed with children of our own)  who are at the right age to really absorb and appreciate this kind of lifestyle; my brother and sister-in-law recently bought a farm in central Virginia and relocated their six children there from urban New Jersey and the kids are just now handling their first BB guns and .22 rifles on a 50-acre working cattle farm.

I will be sending a separate PM, and thank you again for your offer!

[Bob Roller]

Jeremiah Johnson is a good movie, but it isn't close to historically accurate. I have it on disc and enjoy watching it on a winter's night, but part of the fun is pointing out all the Hollywood goofs.
                            Dan

I watched "Jeremiah Johnson"years ago when it was new.The least they could have done was get an actor
that looked mean enough to bite the head off a nail like Charles Bronson,Neville Brand or Richard Boone.
Robert Redford and his brass&pine rifle didn't get it for me.

 Bob Roller

[Luke MacGillie]

All the good movies have horrible flaws no matter if its the big sky, Jeremiah Johnson or even The Mountain Men, but historical movies get people interested in old time ways.  They feed the buckskinning and reenacting cultures with new recruits. 

[Kermit]

All historical fiction is fictitious history. Read: a pack of lies. 

[Dan'l 1946]

Are we talkin' about the same movie? Is this the one where Redford looks like the costuming department shopped street vendors in Tijuana for his outfit? And what about the the dead guy, unmolested by wild animals, in the rocky mountains, in winter, with a perfectly usable "Hawken" still in his hands. If it wasn't for Will Gere it would have been a bomb. REALLY, this is a good movie? On what planet?

                    Hungry Horse

       As I pointed out, it is not historically accurate, but it is entertaining and it's fun to point out the inaccuracies. I agree that Will Geer is the best part of the film.
                                         Dan

[shifty]

 

   I agree Bob about the choice of actor,but I do like the Scenery and the Music. I will watch this new one if I get a chance.

[teakmtn]

My goodness, Jeremiah Johnson was released in 1972, for God sakes. For 1972 it was awesome! How many people even knew what a Hawken rifle was back then, except for a few folks. Yes, it is kind of hokey for the purist types, but look at photos of Friendship during 1972! The movie helped put me on the path which I still am enjoying today. Black powder rifles, American history, Rondezvous and lifetime friends.
So yes, bring on the Hawken rifles, leather and BEARDS, don't forget BEARDS!
Doug T. (with a big ol' smile)

[Hungry Horse]

 Man, I wish you hadn't said 1972, like we were hunting' mastodons with spears back then. Oh, with beards of course.

                   Hungry Horse

[Luke MacGillie]

Now we hunt mastadons with Hawken Rifles, and still got beards.......

[Chuck Burrows]

"Old Sally" does indeed look like a cheap kit gun. The back action lock, and two piece stock, are anything but what we would expect from a genuine trapper/trader like Joe Meeks. Oh, by the way, the term "mountain man" is a modern term, most likely coined by Remington, when he did all his drawings of genuine "mountain men' in the 1870's.              Hungry Horse

Sorry but the term mountain man is not by any means a modern term coined by Remington. Francis Parkman used the term consistently in his book "The Oregon Trail" to describe the Rocky Mtn trappers aka mountaineers. The book was first published in 1849.
The rifle known as Old Sally is not the original Old Sally - it is a gun first made in 1839 by German immigrants in Texas. A study has been done on it but I don't know if it has been published.

[Dphariss]

While a Hawken is not needed to "be" a Mountain Man the evolved Hawken is probably the best medium bore hunting rifle for durability. It was specifically designed for hard use in remote areas. So the rifles were built to take more knocks.

Dan

[Dphariss]

"Old Sally" does indeed look like a cheap kit gun. The back action lock, and two piece stock, are anything but what we would expect from a genuine trapper/trader like Joe Meeks. Oh, by the way, the term "mountain man" is a modern term, most likely coined by Remington, when he did all his drawings of genuine "mountain men' in the 1870's.

              Hungry Horse

Page 202 of "Adventures in Mexico and The Rocky Mountains". I am sure there are others as well.

Dan

[T.C.Albert]

So what are the odds that Glass carried a Hawken himself like some of the stories say?

[Ky-Flinter]

Didn't Hollywood already make a movie about Hugh Glass, with Richard Harris playing Glass?

-Ron

[T.C.Albert]

"Man in the Wilderness"...in that one Glass's gun was a banded musket wasn't it?

[Luke MacGillie]

So what are the odds that Glass carried a Hawken himself like some of the stories say?

I am on my phone at the moment as the govt computer has been IP banned by this forum..

I have a PDF of the Glass story as published in the NY Speculator, 14 June 1825. In the article it says only that the rifle was considered the best in the entire party, and that Glass was attacked before he could set the triggers.

[T.C.Albert]

Sounds like it could be the article by Hall? Or based upon it?
I think 1825 is a pretty early telling of it, and the one by Judge Hall
and his brother was one of the first, though they used a pen name
or published anonymously I think.

So many versions of this story are out there...even members of
his party at the time couldn't all tell it the same it seems....but one story says he captured a Hawken when he was a Pawnee brave, and that was the gun he used on the bear...one version (Clyman?) also states that his shot eventually killed the bear, just not quick enough? Then another, like you say, says he never got a shot off...
tc  

[Dennis Glazener]

I am on my phone at the moment as the govt computer has been IP banned by this forum..

Don't think the govt IP has been blocked from our server. Check your PM's for more info.
Dennis

[Chuck Burrows]

Luke - FWIW, it's still shining times here in the Southern Rockies and IMO it's never been gone for those of us who care.....

as for Hugh and a Hawken, definitely possible and they weren't just for the high muckety mucks - several were shipped to Ft Union as early as 1829 as regular trade items

[nosrettap1958]

The last line in that movie, "Man in the Wilderness" got me wondering, 'I'm going home" as Richard Harris walks off. OK, how you suppose on getting there? In the middle of winter in the Rocky Mountains, wait for the next bus?  

Not to bad of a movie but it could have been better if someone did their homework. Same with Jeremiah Johnson.

[JRMack]

 Say what you will about Jeremiah Johnson or any of the other semi corny mountain man movies, lots of (forest through the  trees outlooks).  I do the same as well, but its great to be able to know the difference between a thunderhead and a jet stream. 
 I also know that without those movies I would have been still hunting elk with a 30-40 Krag or some fancy checkered bolt action. Luckily I had enough of an imagination back then to see past the Indian chief wearing the Rolex in that old western, and glanced into the real future that brought my dad, uncle, brother, friends and myself together to countless weeks in hunting camps high in the Idaho mountains, comparing each others most recent built kit riles, and wishing I could afford one of those GRRW rifes I saw in that magazine, and the blanket shoots at the old rifle range where I won the 100 yard offhand with my TC Sharon barreled 50. Without those old Hollywood movies, I would have most likely never had the chance to learn how to throw a hawk or start a fire with a piece of rock. The real memories that were created that I have been able to pass on to my sons was worth it and I will always have a special liking for Brian Keith and Redford for that.

[Dan'l 1946]

  JR, you make some very good points here. Without films like these, many people would never have gotten into muzzleloading and learned of the historical importance that these firearms have. And we might not have near as many fine gun makers as we do.
  The "faux" Hawkens and mass produced long rifles brought a lot of folks to muzzleloading and led to them wanting better guns of historically correct design. Inaccuracies in the design of the mass production guns and in these early films aside, they helped to make muzzleloading what it is today.
                                          Dan

[Keb]

"He said he's got enough bear claws."
Hokey, smokey, pokey. Yep. Johnson & Cris Lapp got many of the peoples doing this stuff we do along with Disney's Davie & Dan'l.

[sqrldog]

Next time you watch Jeremiah Johnson pay close attention to the gun Paints His Shirt Red is holding while watching Jeremiah fish appears to be a side by side one side rifled and one side smooth. This probably is an original. What do you think?

[Tony N]

Say what you will about Jeremiah Johnson or any of the other semi corny mountain man movies, lots of (forest through the  trees outlooks).  I do the same as well, but its great to be able to know the difference between a thunderhead and a jet stream. 
 I also know that without those movies I would have been still hunting elk with a 30-40 Krag or some fancy checkered bolt action. Luckily I had enough of an imagination back then to see past the Indian chief wearing the Rolex in that old western, and glanced into the real future that brought my dad, uncle, brother, friends and myself together to countless weeks in hunting camps high in the Idaho mountains, comparing each others most recent built kit riles, and wishing I could afford one of those GRRW rifes I saw in that magazine, and the blanket shoots at the old rifle range where I won the 100 yard offhand with my TC Sharon barreled 50. Without those old Hollywood movies, I would have most likely never had the chance to learn how to throw a hawk or start a fire with a piece of rock. The real memories that were created that I have been able to pass on to my sons was worth it and I will always have a special liking for Brian Keith and Redford for that.

. 
Exactly.  Well said!