AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: flatsguide on September 13, 2015, 06:20:10 AM
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As some of you folks know, I'm building A Jim Chambers English sporting rifle. I would like to know what parts were most likely to have been case hardened and/or case colored. Years ago I saw some English guns that the breech tang was case colored. On the rifle that I am building the breech tang is integral to the breech plug. If I case color that part would it be too brittle and would I have to draw it back after quenching?
I do not know the alloy but it was fitted to the Rice bbl. That will not be hard to find out though.
Really interest in your thoughts, ideas or advice.
Thanks, Richard
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I know that all the English locks were hardened. Some had to be color hardened even if was an accident. If you case harden the breach plug and tang I would temper the threads back to at least 625 ° F.
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Richard,
I always draw back any parts that I case color harden. Normally I draw the hardened parts at 400 degrees for 1 hour. The drawing process does two things for me. First is tempers the parts and second it helps make the colors pop and become much more bright and vivid.
You should not have any problems with color hardening the breech. When I case color harden a breech plug I draw the temper and then apply additional temper to about 600 degrees to the threads with a propane flame. I have had no issues.
David
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Jerry, David, Thanks for info. I am very tempted to get a furnace and do this myself. Do you know if the trigger guard and ramrod pipes were case colored also on Hi end English guns?
Thanks much, Richard
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anybody case harden thimbles, patch boxes ect.Not sure how these parts would fare during the quench.Be to brittle or warp even when supported.I was thinking of doing this to try and get all the metal to match in color,tang,butt,lock,ect.Would doing the normal case hardening procedure with the lock,butt and tang and then do the thimbles and patch box separately without the quench to just get the color without the risk be an option?I was going to start a thread on this when I was to that point but seeing we are on the subject.Not really trying for the really brilliant colors but more grays that would be more the norm for early hawken rifles,Thanks,Joe
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Hi Flatsguide,
According to Keith Neal, the first gunmaker in England to intentionally produce case colors or preserve those that happened by chance, was William Bailes in the late 1760s. Case colors do not appear to be common on English guns until late in the 18th century. Consequently, case colors probably are not appropriate for the period of gun Chamber's rifle represents if you want to be HC. Simple case hardening without producing colors was of course common and was a very ancient process for hardening the surfaces of iron parts. It probably needs saying first, that case hardening any parts of a Chambers lock probably voids the warrantee. Regardless, I case harden all of my lock plates and flintcocks. That prevents the flintcock from peening the bolster of the lock plate. I also case harden the frizzen. I do that because I anneal the frizzen, which makes it much easier to clean up and polish (and engrave if desired). Then I case harden it. Although I cannot explain why, my case hardened frizzens simply spark better than those hardened by any of the manufacturers. I also case harden the hook and tang breech and any other steel or iron parts that are likely to wear or be exposed to rust. A polished hardened surface is quite rust resistant. The exceptions are the trigger guard and butt plate. I am concerned about warping and misshaping them during hardening. Unless I can block them with thicker steel, I avoid hardening them.
dave
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You should not have any problems with color hardening the breech.
You can also screw a nut on to the threads. The large mass of the nut slows the cooling when you quench it, eliminating the need to temper.
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You should not have any problems with color hardening the breech.
You can also screw a nut on to the threads. The large mass of the nut slows the cooling when you quench it, eliminating the need to temper.
What a great idea, thanks.
dave
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Dave, please thank Smart Dog for me for his words of wisdom. TOF, I agree, great advice...Thanks!
Richard
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Dave, please thank Smart Dog for me for his words of wisdom.
Will do Richard, as soon as she finishes licking her, ah, you know where.
dave
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I have never seen a English gun of the period you are building that had iron furniture. All the ones I have seen are either Brass or Silver. I have built late model English sporting era 1815 or later rifles with steel furniture. If you case harden a butt plate after fitting it will not fit after hardening. From my experience if you try to bend a case hardened part it has a very good chance of breaking especially if it is thin. I know. some military rifles may have had iron furniture.
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Just a thought,would case hardening all the parts before finishing the stock then make sense?You could then in theory make adjustments to the stock if necessary. If proper precautions are taken with parts to insure them from warping the slight changes should be able to be fixed,IMHO.
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You can limit warping by blocking a part with steel supports. That is time consuming and requires a lot of fabricating. You have to invent ways to attach the blocking to the part. Even then some parts will still warp some. I have done it but I can't say it was worth it unless you think you have a big profit potential. Ordinary guns are just not worth the effort and loss of time.
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Hi Joe,
In a word, no. You often have to bend and reshape trigger guards as you finish a gun to adjust the profile as you go along. For example, trigger guards should be one of the last hardware you inlet so that you can shape the stock to pleasing lines and then adapt the guard to those lines. It is almost impossible to shape the guard first and fit the stock to it. Chances are it will look very bad.
dave
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true enough but was thinking more about almost having things as close to the finish as possible.Having in my case the trigger plate bent to shape and trigger guard bent to fit it.I was thinking more of the butt plate lock,tang.I do think with proper blocking the movement should be minimal. The lines of the rifle in these areas being all but done.Just throwing it out there for discussion, I'm not sold on trying it myself till I take a spare butt or tang and block it and do a test run to see how much it can change shape.Thanks for the info Dave
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Jerry, thanks for the bit of info regarding the iron furniture. I did not know that. When I bought the kit from Jim I wanted to buy the silver furniture until he told me the price for that would be over $2,000 bucks. I agree, tooling up to hold just a few parts is not worth it.
Smart Dog, thanks for the insight relating to the trigger guard being the last to inlet. I have the toe to trigger plate line real close to the finished line on the stock and transferred that line to the trigger guard that is still being massaged with file and stone. Getting up the cojone's to start filing the rollover on the bow. Oh! Hi Dave.
Now that I am not period correct, that will free me up to be a bit creative in a subtle way.
Hey Joe, thanks, but it would be really a tough row to how to try to fit the stock to the parts even if the parts were perfect. If the parts were misshapen-end..well you know.
Thanks guys! so much to learn so little time
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When I am finishing up a stock, I scrape and sand right over the metal, so having finished it first would eliminate any colour I may have succeeded in acquiring.
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Richard, there are enough iron mounted English guns from the period of your Chambers kit that your steel parts will be fine for correctness IMO.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj136%2Ffowling_gun%2FRichards%2520Original%2Fbpweb.jpg&hash=6a5b1401788ca0775de85d10cb3a950123546f2d) (http://s271.photobucket.com/user/fowling_gun/media/Richards%20Original/bpweb.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj136%2Ffowling_gun%2FRichards%2520Original%2Ftgweb.jpg&hash=3ca20874444b01a643af66831eb9158d649d6114) (http://s271.photobucket.com/user/fowling_gun/media/Richards%20Original/tgweb.jpg.html)
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What D.Taylor Sapergia described is pretty much the way it is properly done.
James, Thank you and thanks for the photos.
Regards, Richard
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Richard, there are enough iron mounted English guns from the period of your Chambers kit that your steel parts will be fine for correctness IMO.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj136%2Ffowling_gun%2FRichards%2520Original%2Fbpweb.jpg&hash=6a5b1401788ca0775de85d10cb3a950123546f2d) (http://s271.photobucket.com/user/fowling_gun/media/Richards%20Original/bpweb.jpg.html)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj136%2Ffowling_gun%2FRichards%2520Original%2Ftgweb.jpg&hash=3ca20874444b01a643af66831eb9158d649d6114) (http://s271.photobucket.com/user/fowling_gun/media/Richards%20Original/tgweb.jpg.html)
James. Where did you find that photo? The softness of the engraving makes me think it might not be iron. Engraving on iron should not wear as much as that.
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Jerry, It is a mid century Birmingham piece I used to own that my friend has now. Unfortunately it saw extensive exposure to a buffing wheel prior to making it across the pond. I have even seen iron lock plates that originally were hardened of course have most all of the maker's engraved name gone from polishing and then later re-cut. Here is an untouched plate I have on a sterling mounted gun from 1767-68 London that was once very finely engraved all over. You can hardly make out the name in person.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj136%2Ffowling_gun%2FHeylin%2520Fowling%2520Piece%2F100_2052.jpg&hash=f5e96593d0a084d8a6ddb62866c0f0e2d03a4a4e) (http://s271.photobucket.com/user/fowling_gun/media/Heylin%20Fowling%20Piece/100_2052.jpg.html)
The parts in person on the Birmingham piece in question do show quite a bit of detail and rather quality engraving but those pictures are not very good at all. Here is a picture of the barrel though that shows how much of the engraving was removed from there!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj136%2Ffowling_gun%2FRichards%2520Original%2Fthomasrichards3111.jpg&hash=69f55e7744cc4f2def616e3579ce8a5ce8fcd313) (http://s271.photobucket.com/user/fowling_gun/media/Richards%20Original/thomasrichards3111.jpg.html)
Here is another iron gun that I just snapped a pic of a minute ago. Another provincial piece but unbuffed. The engraving is still faint amongst the lower quality iron's striations. If you have Neal's 1740-1790 Great British Gunmakers book (the most common) you will find quite a few iron mounted pieces there as well.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi271.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fjj136%2Ffowling_gun%2F2015-09-14%252010.36.02_zpsuhs5sxss.jpg&hash=66ad78d4a7e623b2bf9ee73321c4fcaa96813715) (http://s271.photobucket.com/user/fowling_gun/media/2015-09-14%2010.36.02_zpsuhs5sxss.jpg.html)
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If you give breech plug threads a good wash of copper sulfate case hardening will not have any effect on the threads.
Bob
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That is interesting Greybeard. I remember using copper sulphate years ago as a layout fluid. That is outstanding wire inlay on that fowler.
Thanks for the info and photos...Richard
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Hi Richard,
If you are going to case harden for colors, use lower temperatures such as 1375-1450 for hardening (above about 1500-1550 colors are not produced reliably), I would suggest 50% wood and 50% bone charcoal, pack your crucible tight with parts (none touching each other) and charcoal and make sure you have a lid. Heat soak the crucible at the proper temp for 90 minutes and then quench in room temperature water. Now this is important: when you quench the pack, make sure you hold it low over the volume of water. Then flip it over quickly so that the pack drops into the water as a solid brick. Do not pour a stream of contents because that will expose the parts to air before they hit the water. I find that a rectangular pan (crucible) with a lid is best rather than a tube shaped crucible. It also helps if you loosely wrap parts with steel or copper wire. Wherever the wire touches the steel to be hardened it often produces a blue color spreading from the contact point. After quenching temper all of the parts (except frizzens) to 490 to bring out the amber and yellow colors. I have done this many times with good success.
dave
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James . That is great information. What fascinates me about those iron gun mounts is they almost look like they were cast.
Do you see any evidence of that? Your information made me recall a iron side plate I saw on an English gun from the late 1700's. It looked like it was cast also. What made me suspicious was it had some of the same flaws in the same places I saw on other identical side plates.
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Dave, thanks much for the info. I have seen a few youtube videos were the volume of water was aerated with a healthy stream of bubbles. Is that necessary? Looking at Paragon furnaces and trying to figure out what chamber size would be best.
Regards, Richard
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James . That is great information. What fascinates me about those iron gun mounts is they almost look like they were cast.
Do you see any evidence of that? Your information made me recall a iron side plate I saw on an English gun from the late 1700's. It looked like it was cast also. What made me suspicious was it had some of the same flaws in the same places I saw on other identical side plates.
Jerry,
From what I can tell from the tool evidence underneath the plates, they were formed. Probably in a form designed just for the platte. You can also see the planishing tracks where they were refined. This is my best guess off of memory from a couple of years ago. ; )
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Richard,
I do not aerate my quench. I use a 32 gallon plastic garbage can filled with well water. I do not wrap or block my parts, but I do take great pains to ensure my parts are packed correctly to hit the quench to prevent warping. My favorite crucible is made from a 3" piece of square tubing.
Here are 2 photos from a color case hardening demonstration I did at one of our Washington Gunmakers Guild bi-monthly meetings last year.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi51.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff372%2FGunbu1lder%2FP1010232_zpsagekalci.jpg&hash=552d0dca538e13439d6d3e7811f8e600800ce470)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi51.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff372%2FGunbu1lder%2FP1010233_zpsv3bbtq3e.jpg&hash=9e09d9af9bf32fe9317286cccecba99f83b3fe29)
Here is a picture of a lock I did in June of 2014. Temperature was 1500 with a 2/3 wood to 1/3 bone mixture of Brownell's charcoal cooked for 1 hour after reaching temperature. I can show you photo after photo of tangs, actions and locks with basically the same colors and patterns with this combination.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi51.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff372%2FGunbu1lder%2FDSCF4282_zpsb6hjskq1.jpg&hash=14132ce57f358c48d4937f34ede31ae6cf7254bc)
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Hi Richard,
I have a Neycraft oven with a Paragon computer controller. The cavity in the oven is 9" x 9". I would buy the largest chamber size you can afford. The computer control is a real plus if you are going to do much heat treating (it really helps when making springs). Dave R's example is very good but I believe 1500 degrees is on the high end for reliable colors. The key is to make sure no air hits the parts before they are in the quench. If the parts are exposed to air you will see ugly grey splotches mixed with the colors. If I am not concerned with colors, I typically bring the parts to 1575-1600 degrees. The photos below show results from the method I use and described.
dave
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FPC180611.jpg&hash=cadeaf578059be25c4460d96067a31d50d8d277d)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FJohns%2520Dueling%2520pistols%25206-15%25208_zpsop4m5oe1.jpg&hash=a818e26fa997b010c494f87934ee81da0bbee99e)
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Dave R and Dave, Thank you both for taking the time and effort to post the pictures and replying. I would be happy to get results like that shown in either photo. Great file work on both locks! I'm taking away the idea of not letting any air hitting the parts while dumping is imperative. Since the lock plate is relatively thin, do you make any sort of fixture to hold it to prevent warping. I can see were a vertical tube would let the lock plate slide straight into the water where both sides would cool at relatively the same rate so the plate may not need a fixture...would you all agre with that? DaveR, you mentioned you used well water? Although I live in the country I am not on well water. I am sure there is chlorine in the tap water we use. Is that a problem?
Thanks for the numbers...I see a furnace in my future.
Much appreciated, Richard
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Dave,
Nice colors on the Harpers Ferry lock.
Richard,
I use well water because that is what I have. Don't know if chlorine is good, bad or indifferent. Maybe someone else knows the answer. You picked right up on the design of my crucible and a vertical approach to the quench.
When I held down a full time job, I, like most of us had limited time to divide up on all the different aspects of building a longrifle. So when I came upon a process that gave me results that met my standards, I stuck with that process. Now that I have retired I hope to do more research and experimenting and fine tune a few things.
David
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Hi Richard,
Dave R shows a really nice crucible for the pack. The large rectangle must allow his pack to drop like a solid brick, and the vertical orientation absolutely will reduce risk of warping. I began by using a chunk of 3" steel pipe capped on one end and with a loose lid on the other. The pipe did not release the pack as a solid and it poured out. That is when I found a steel rectangular pan with lid that worked very well. I don't know if chlorine will affect the colors. Oxygen and nitrogen do but I cannot say about chlorine. I learned my method using rainwater. I lived in Ketchikan, Alaska, and we captured rain water off our roof and stored it in a 7000 gal cistern for our water supply. Now in Vermont, I have a well. My water contains a lot of iron which may be the reason I am getting wonderful results on wood with ferric nitrate crystals. You can prevent warping of thin lock plates by simply attaching it to a 1/4" thick flat bar of steel using the lock bolt holes and machine screws. It is really very easy. I don't worry about other parts like frizzens, ramrod thimbles, etc. Richard, based on my experiments, temperature had the following effects (all heat soak times were 90 minutes):
1375-1425 degrees - colors dominated by blues and purple, amber color subdued
1425-1475 degrees - nice mix of blues with purple and amber
1475-1525 degrees - purple mostly gone, blues present, amber becoming dominant
1525-1575 degrees - amber dominant blues subdued, no purple at all
1575-1600 degrees - mix of amber and grayish tones
dave
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Smart dog and Dave Race are both very good at what they do. Anybody would do well to follow their advise. Race and I have been good friends for many years. In my opinion he is one of the best traditional gun makers in the country today.
I like smart dog's color chart. My experiments pretty much coincide with his on the colors. I have found that a temperature above 1650 or 1700 pretty much destroys all colors. I think that the higher temp. creates so much steam around the part that it makes the outcome uniformly gray.
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Dave,DaveR and Jerry,
I agree Jerry...All three of you in fact.
Thanks so much for your detailed advice and sharing your hard won knowledge. It is much appreciated and I hope to do it justice. Just a few days ago my wife said she was interested in making Dichroic glass jewelry..guess what, one needs an oven for that work. So popping for a furnace is a win win.
DaveR, how long is your crucible ?
I came across the info below it is from the 1924 machinery handbook. It may be of interest...
Casehardening for Colors. -- For hardening and at the same time coloring such parts as wrenches, etc., the following mixture may be used: Mix 10 parts of charred bone, 6 parts of wood charcoal, 4 parts of charred leather and 1 part of powdered cyanide. The leather should be black, crisp and well pulverized, and the four ingredients well mixed. The object in charring the bone and leather is to remove all grease. The parts to be colored must be well polished and should not be handled with greasy hands. To obtain satisfactory work, these rules must be observed. If the colors obtained are too gaudy, the cyanide may be omitted, and if there is still too much color, leave out the charcoal. The parts to be colored and hardened should be packed in a piece of common gas pipe having a closed end. Pipe is preferable because the pieces can be dumped into the cooling water with little or no exposure to the air. The open end of the pipe can be places close to the surface of the water before the parts are removed, but with a box there would be more or less exposure. This class of work should be heated to a dark cherry-red and kept at that temperature for about four or five hours. If the temperature is too high, no colors will appear. The tank should be arranged with a compressed air pipe connecting with the water pipe at the bottom in such a way that a jet of air is forced upward, thus filling the tank with bubbles. There should also be a sieve or basket in the tank for receiving the work. After quenching, place the parts in boiling water for five minutes and then bury them in dry sawdust for half an hour. Another mixture recommended for coloring consists of 10 parts granulated bone, 2 parts bone black and 1 part granulated charred leather.
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James Rogers,
Is the lock plate from a gun made by Joseph Heylin? He is one of my favorite British makers.
dave
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flatsguide.
4 or 5 hours is way to long for gun parts. The penetration rate of the carbon into the metal is approximately .010 pr. hour at 1550° F. Remember this happens on all exposed surfaces therefore a lock plate that is .125 thick will be infused to a depth of .040 or .050 from each side with carbon. In effect this transforms the whole plate into high carbon steel throughout.
This is not necessary. By the way parts shrink when case hardened to some extent. They also shrink when hardened and tempered. Enough so that a spring may not fit the original holes it did if fitted before heat treating. An hour at the proper temp if sufficient. Heat penetrates steel at approximately .125 in 20 minutes. When you heat a piece of steel to red heat visually it is not immediately that hot on the inside. Try to think of heat treating as though you were cooking a biscuit. Just heating a biscuit to 350 does not get it done. It may take 15 minutes to get it done on the inside. Steel is like that.
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Thanks Jerry, got it, good to know. I noticed Smart dog soaked his parts for 90 minutes.
Thanks Jerry
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James Rogers,
Is the lock plate from a gun made by Joseph Heylin? He is one of my favorite British makers.
dave
Dave,
Yes sir, it is on a Joseph Heylin fowling gun with John King sterling furniture dated 1767 and a Eudal Pous of Barcelona barrel. I admire his work for that period also.
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DaveR, how long is your crucible ?
flatsguide,
The overall length of my crucible is 7 1/2". The OD of the square tubing is 3". The welded flange on the end is 4" square as is the lid. I made the lid and flange larger than the flask so when it is laying in my oven air is allowed to circulate around all 6 sides. I can pack a lock plate and pan, frizzen, cock and top jaw and all the screws and lock bolts in the crucible.
David
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Thanks Dave, The reason I asked was to get some idea of the oven chamber size . Did I understand that after packing and putting the 4 inch lid on you lay the crucible on its side? If so how do you fasten the lid so it does not come off. In the photos you sent of the dumping process what was the purpose of the other fellow assisting with the hooked rod. I hope you don't mind this nooby asking the basic questions.
BTW what is the size of your ovens chamber.
Thanks much, Richard
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Hi Flatsguide,
My oven is only 9" high and you need some clearance from the insulating baffles. That is why I use a flatter rectangular pan and cover and also why I do not orient lock plates vertically for the pour. I would do as Dave does if I could but I think his crucible would be too large for my oven. Instead, my pack drops into the quench horizontally and I have to block thin lock plates to prevent warping. It is what it is and I adapt. Blocking is not hard to do and I suffer no ill effects from my set up compared with Dave's.
dave
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Thanks Dave, The reason I asked was to get some idea of the oven chamber size . Did I understand that after packing and putting the 4 inch lid on you lay the crucible on its side? If so how do you fasten the lid so it does not come off. In the photos you sent of the dumping process what was the purpose of the other fellow assisting with the hooked rod. I hope you don't mind this nooby asking the basic questions.
BTW what is the size of your ovens chamber.
Thanks much, Richard
Richard,
Here is a picture of my crucible which should help answer a few of your questions. As you can see in the photo, my lid has 2 tabs that get pinned to the crucible.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi51.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff372%2FGunbu1lder%2FDSCF5038_zpsxoi2aj0o.jpg&hash=4cb932a16edd534415d29a252391420c2055b2db)
The gentleman assisting is using a hook to pull the pin. After I remove the crucible from my oven, I set the crucible on a piece of wood spanning the quench tank. I place a piece of sheet metal over the wood to keep the wood from burning when I set the crucible on it. Prior to sliding the crucible off of the plank an assistant uses a hook and pulls the pin. This frees the lid up so when I slide the crucible off the plank the lid along with the charcoal and the parts dump directly into the quench.
I think my furnace is 9" x 9" x 6 1/2". The kiln is 220 VAC. If I was to do it over again I would buy a furnace with about a 10" x 13 1/2" x 6 1/2" capacity. I hope this information helps.
David
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Dave,
That is a really nice crucible. I think I am going to weld up a copy. My only problem is I work alone so I'll have to figure out a single man procedure.
dave
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Thanks Dave that answers the question just fine. I guess if one is doing this solo he could put a large nail in the board set the loop over the nail and just pull the crucible off the board.
Back to looking at ovens.
Thanks, Richard
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This furnace is on the top of my list...
http://www.paragonweb.com/HT14D.cfm
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I made my own furnaces. I have made 7 furnaces. Directions and supplies can be found on the net. A good place to look is ceramic shops. For electric furnaces I use the controls off of old electric stoves. Pyrometers can be bought from E bay or ceramic shops. Look up kiln supplies. When I first started I made a propane furnace out of a 5 gallon bucket lined with castable refractory cement. Lot of places sell that. You can use a hand held type K pyrometer with a stainless steel probe to check the temp. Acer has some real good cheap ideas for heating the pack of crucible. Maybe he will chime in. He has shown this on the forum several times before.
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Thanks Jerry, I will look into going that route.
Regards, Richard
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Smart Dog
You say your case-hardened frizzens spark better than a store-bought & hardened one
Makes sense to me.
The as-cast frizzen has some carbon burnt out of the surface, just exactly the opposite of case hardening.
By case hardening it yourself, you are restoring some of this lost carbon.
I missed whether you case harden a new, soft frizzen or one that has already been hardened once.
The other defect of investment cast steel parts is that the grains are amazingly coarse. This makes the steel, at whatever hardness, less ductile, less likely for the flint to remove a nice curly chip (frizzle) of steel. By almost any heat treatment, annealing, heating red hot and air cooling, or by casehardening it the grain size of the steel gets refined.
Fine grained steel is tougher, better than coarse grained, always.
The neat thing about steel is that if you have coarse grained metal, you can refine the grains by heat treatment.
For parts that you do not want to break it would be really cool to know the carbon content of the original casting.
Where strength is concerned there is more to color case hardening than just the pretty colors.
A two-part series on color case hardening, by Oscar L. Gaddy, was published in Double Gun Journal, Winter 1996 and Spring 1997.
As far as cast "steel" side-plates in the 18th century, they would be Malleable Iron. That is a cast iron with some ductility. Frames of Allen pepperboxes were malleable iron, as were frames of that French pinfire revolver used in the late Unpleasantness Between the States. London Colts with "steel" mounts actually had malleable iron backstraps & triggerguards.
Jim Kelly, P.I.T.A. metallurgist since 50+ years
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How you folks handling the thinnest of parts like patch boxes ect?Yes these treatments will make the metal brittle but looking to keep your iron parts matching in color.Baking in the oven to take some of the brittleness out of parts seems to be the answer but keeping them from warping would be the bigger concern,your thoughts?
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I don't recommend case hardening anything as thin as a patch box and I do not shine the bottom of my shoes.
Thin stuff like that might come out looking like a potato chip.
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I have part 1 of Oscar Gaddey's , Color Case a Hardening article but I can not find part 2. Does anyone have a link to part 2?
Thanks, Richard
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Hi Jim,
Thank you for that explanation about the effects of heat treating on grain. That helps me understand what is going on a great deal. I am usually rehardening frizzens that I annealed to file and polish or to engrave. Then I always case harden them and temper. I've done this for locks from almost every commercial maker and find that case hardening improved L&R frizzens the most by far. I am not impressed with the quality of their castings and I always have to do more work cleaning up, shaping, and tuning L&R locks than any other commercial maker but once worked over they are some of the best sparking locks I've seen.
dave
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Question... why would anyone need to harden a patchbox?
Or a buttplate or side plate for that matter. I understand that some want the colors strictly for a modern aesthetic, put I think it looks out of place. Just a personal opinion.
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Hi RAT,
Actually, color cased buttplates and trigger guards were common on many firearms from the early 19th century until the end on the muzzleloader era. So depending on what you are trying to achieve, color casing can be appropriate and very attractive. It is not likely to be correct for an American longrifle, although I believe the Harpers ferry rifles had case hardened locks on which colors were left. An advantage of case hardening with respect to buttplates, patch boxes, sideplates, and trigger guards, is that it provides a lot of corrosion resistance if the part is to be polished rather than blued or browned. That may not be important for most folks but if you are engraving a firearm and want a polished steel background to show the artwork, the corrosion resistance from hardening is a plus.
dave
dave
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I don't really care if the parts end up with color or not and probably shoot more for case hardened grey.This finish will handle the damp winter weather more than carded back blue ect.I think case hardening is more period correct for what I'm building and seen plenty of rust brown finish to know that not for me.As far as the patch box goes I'm just trying to get all the metal parts to match in color or at least close.Just my personal preference.
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for explaining some of the benefits of case hardening re grain structure. I will definitely put that advise to work. BTW, do you have any Links to part 2 of O. Gaddey's article on case coloring?
Thanks Richard
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flats - send me an email off-line & will send you a pdf of 2
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Email sent...Thanks Jim
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Richard,
While you are reading you might want to read this blog on the Marlin Firearms Collectors Association. There's 31 pages. It is way more user friendly with real life trial and error color case hardening attempts.
http://www.marlin-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3732&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
David
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Marlin post valuable.
I like Geddy, but then I am accustomed to detailed metallurgal explanations. Scanned Geddy again & saw things I hadn't noticed before.
Bone Charcoal is still available from the Ebonex Corp, Melvindale, Michigan. It is the calcium phosphate in bone charcoal that gives the colors.
I hadn't thought of volatile compounds coming off of new charcoal, but it does make sense. As I vaguely recall, commercial charcoal is processed no hotter than 650 - 700F. Char the wood too hot, and the creosote leaves. One needs creosote in charcoal used for black gunpowder in order to get a "moist burning powder"
I digress.
One must dump the parts directly from the carburizing box into the water, right at the water surface as any air touching the parts will dim the colors.
I personally would leave cyanide out of the mix. It will affect the colors but is not the best substance to handle & keep around the shop.
Before Our Gov't Helped us with Safety, we used to caseharden in a molten 30% sodium cyanide bath at around 1600F. Most of us survived just fine, evil & ignorant as we were. We did not heat our sandwiches around the cyanide pot.
If for some reason you plan to use cyanide for heat treating it is very important that you get your information from old sources.
Do not, on your life, believe the idiocy currently found on the web.
Your Unenlightened Great-grandfathers knew how to deal with the stuff but few today have a clue. Get thee a used copy of the ASM Handbook, preferably from 1939, although the 1948 edition is a good one. Try abebooks dot com.
You might gather that I am an actual metallurgist, graduated whilst JFK was chasing Marilyn.
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David, thanks for that link. I read 10 pages before I crashed last night with information overload. I think Jim Kelly above contributed to that discussion. It seems that keeping the temp no higher than 1350 F then dropping down to 1100F prior to quench reduces warpage to a neglagable amount. Smart dog mentioned that a lot of firearms of the early 19th century had case hardened BP's and trigger guards. I would make up some sacrificial butt plates and trigger guards to test first before zi would use good ones.
Jim, good info...Looking forward to seeing Gaddeys explanation of CCH. Thanks a lot.
I really appreciate all the help and I sure will share all my finding when I get going on this.
Regards, Richard
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David, thanks for that link. I read 10 pages before I crashed last night with information overload. I think Jim Kelly above contributed to that discussion. It seems that keeping the temp no higher than 1350 F then dropping down to 1100F prior to quench reduces warpage to a neglagable amount. Smart dog mentioned that a lot of firearms of the early 19th century had case hardened BP's and trigger guards. I would make up some sacrificial butt plates and trigger guards to test first before zi would use good ones.
Jim, good info...Looking forward to seeing Gaddeys explanation of CCH. Thanks a lot.
I really appreciate all the help and I sure will share all my finding when I get going on this.
Regards, Richard
If you want to do tests, I wouldn't waste your time making actual parts. Just buy some 1/8" x 1" 1018 and cut it into 4-5" strips and polish one side.
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If you keep the temp down to 1350° for the soak and then quench at 1100° you will not get hardening. You will only get color so you will defeat your entire purpose of preserving the engraving and integrity of the parts. I have seen this many times and it is a copout way of doing the job.
Grain structure may be interesting to know but is irrelevant as far as case hardening goes. Because if you want case hardened parts what you end up with is what it is. You have no choice.
I don't know why some people want to make this subject so complicated. The process is real simple. Personally I don't think the ingredients of the pack have as much to do with the color as the bubbles in the quench do. I have seen dozens of different color effects out of plain wood charcoal. You can change the colors by fooling with the temp of the water and adding potassium nitrate to the water. It doesn't take much potassium nitrate to get a solid blue color. One thing I can say for sure is you will never produce two objects the same.
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I don't know why some people want to make this subject so complicated. The process is real simple. One thing I can say for sure is you will never produce two objects the same.
Amen to that Jerry!
David
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Hi,
I second Jerry and Dave!! The object of case hardening - is hardening. Below 1350 degrees and you probably will not harden parts properly or have a deep case. For me, colors are secondary to proper hardening and tempering. Jerry also mentioned adding potassium nitrate to the quench water. I believe it is the nitrogen that gives the blue colors and you can add more nitrogen (from the air)to the water by bubbling or stirring it before quenching. Adding potassium nitrate also works for that purpose. Consider the two locks on guns I built shown below. In both cases the lockplates and flintcocks were cased at 1575 degrees for 90 minutes and then quenched. I was not seeking any mottled colors but I added 1/2 cup of potassium nitrate to about 15 gallons of water for the quench. The result is a blue-greenish tint to the metal that is translucent and has a really nice appearance. Tempering the parts afterward at 490 degrees for 1 hour darkens the color by adding a slight bronze tint. The result really looks nice as any folks who saw my "Star of Bethlehem" at Dixon's this year can attest. However, it is very important that any part to be colored during heat treating must have well polished surfaces. The sand beaded surfaces on commercial locks has be polished bright before case hardening. Flatsguide, I've noted quite a few English-made guns from the early 19th century with color case-hardened trigger guards and butt plates. I've not seen any American made guns done that way. Keep in mind, the color from case hardening is not very durable and is easily polished off and fades over time.
dave
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FStar%2520of%2520Bethlehem%25204_zpshlymnbcq.jpg&hash=56f54130ac371da7b6a6874a5a53fe0bc10c596e)
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Jerry, Smart Dog, you are right that you will not get hardening at 1100 degree quench. I know you need to reach the critical temp prior to quenching to get a hard part,if it has the carbon content. My head was wrapped around case COLORING and no warpage, that I lost track of the real reason for case hardening. Thanks for the reality check.
Smart Dog, that is a smart looking rifle and I do like the subtle colors that I see on your riflemuch more than the gaudy colors.
Mark, you got that right, no way would I waste time and material .
Thanks Guys
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This is an interesting read.
http://www.doubleguncraft.com/uploads/PDFs/GunCraft_Book.pdf
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A few years ago I did a tutorial on this forum and said that wrapping wire around a piece or placing other pieces of metal close to the parts to be hardened would give better colors.
In my opinion it is not that it causes slower cooling but rather the fact that it traps the steam bubbles close to the metal that enhances the colors. However the two probably are simultaneous. I once wrapped a lock with iron wire and after quenching it showed blue steaks where each wire crossed the lock plate.
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What D.Taylor Sapergia described is pretty much the way it is properly done.
James, Thank you and thanks for the photos.
Regards, Richard
The nice thing about a forum such as this, is that everyone is entitled to their own silly opinions. ;D ::)
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And the poor things about a good forum like this are guys that post negative non- constructive input. Smiley faces notwithstanding.
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Hi Richard,
I think Daryl was needling his brother, Taylor. As I am sure you are aware, Taylor is one of the finest gunmakers anywhere. We all benefit greatly from his input. I also know that Daryl is pretty fond of Taylor and his work.
dave
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Dave, I did not know that. Thank you for clearing that up. My apologies to Daryl. As to Taylor I agree his work is some of the finest.
Regards, Richard
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That's OK Richard - not taken too hard. ;)
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My profound apologies Daryl.
Regards, Richard
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Today I case color hardened some underhammer castings I purchased from Muzzleloader Builders Supply in August. Because of the long upper and lower tang and influence from this thread I lowered my temperature to 1400 degrees to lessen the risk of warpage. I did bolt the upper and lower tangs together using a spacer in the rear. I used a mixture of 2 -1 wood - bone charcoal and once up to temperature I left them in the oven for 1 hour. I quenched them in my 32 gallon plastic trash can and then tempered them at 400 degrees for 1 hour.
As you can see, where the metal is thick or heavy I got lots of blue at 1400 degrees. On thin areas and light pieces like the screw heads, mostly grey. I don't know if the heavier parts absorb the heat better or the smaller parts over heated. The thin areas on the edges of the trigger plate next to the cut out for the hammer and trigger also remained grey. In the past, when I went up to 1500 degrees I got color in my screws so I am assuming that the screws and thin areas are not getting up to temperature.
If you look at the trigger you can see more grey where there is less mass.
I wonder if I could of got a more even color distribution if I had blocked or wrapped wire around the thin areas and screws and created more mass.
David
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very ņice, perhaps a way of keeping the screws in the tang while in the heat would give them the color you seek,more mass better to absorb the heat.Probably dummy blocks giving them the mass so you can still block the tangs would be better.
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Dave,
Those colors look just fine. I think I would just fire blue the screw heads. Was there any warpage to speak of? I am curious about hardness. From what I understand, the more carbon in the steel, the lower the quenching can be and still get an increase in hardness. Adding carbon to the surface via packing in charcoal may raise the carbon point high enough to get the desired hardness at a lower , 1400 degrees in this case, temperature. I think Jim Kibler is a metallurgist. Would be nice if he could chime in.
Regards, richard