AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Barnstormer on November 26, 2015, 07:03:57 PM
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I have .58 Zuave made by Antonio Zoli. He probobly bought it in the early 70's. I hunted with in the 90's. I remember having it shooting round balls pretty good,(aside from the fact that the rear site is slid way to the left). I hung it up on the wall after a very good cleaning, (to which I am thourgh) ending with bore butter (natural lube 1000) in a hot barrel. I needed a gun for the son in law so I took it down and patched it out, (I got some red patches until they stoped for most part). Not flakey and I put a barrel light down and looked good. Anyway took it to the range and didnt know the powder loads that I used to use, I shot from 60 to 120 gr of Pyrodex Select. Patches were .15 prelube. I patched out with Thompson 13, after each shot) At 50 yrds it did 2" groups. But at 100 yrds they were all over the paper with no groupage, period. Anyone have any ideas or what I can do to get this thing shooting good again. Should I be useing FFF powder in it. I know its not the best of gun makers but he cant afford his own yet and it would be a good learning gun if it will shoot straight. Thanks for any help, Dennis
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First off, lose the Pyrodex, and get a can of 2F black powder. Get some .562 round balls,( because the Zolli barrels are more like loading a smoothbore than a rifle),and patch them with at least .015 greased pillow ticking, or pocket drill. I use 85 grains of 2F, but have jacked it up too a hundred on a couple of occasions. Not a target gun, but kills big critters deader than a nit at a hundred yards.
Hungry Horse
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Mine shot like a target gun. 3 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yds. 50 yds it would make one ragged hole. Won
lots of musket matches with it. I used 55 grs of Goex 3 F. .575 dia cast ball .017 thick pillow ticking
It did not care what powder charge you used. Anything from 45 grs to 90 shot well. I shot 55 only
because that's where the gun was sighted in on the "X" ring at 50 yds. Also I used the nipple that takes
No. 11 caps. Once I did put a musket cap nipple in and it would not shoot near as accurate. Groups
really opened up. Switched back to the Ampco No. 11 cap nipple and all was well again. My Zoli was made
about 1975 and the twist was 1-72. Three pretty shallow grooves. That's my story.
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Had a Zouave back in the 70's, and another in the 80's. They both shot well and were sold to someone who needed an accurate rifle for hunting. I used 85gr. 2F to 110gr. 2F and they both responded with amazing accuracy, just as Frizzen's gun did. I used .575" dead-soft (pure) lead from (NEW) BC Tel Telephone wire cable sheaths. I cut off the soldered ends as they used 50/50 solder and added those to my modern gun lead mixes. I also used a .20 to .22 thou denim patch, of course. I didn't try the .562" balls but with the thick denim, they'd have been accurate as well. I do shoot .562's in my Musketoon with the .574" bore diameter. I found the .575" a little snug with the thick denim, not too difficult but harder loading than desirable due to the shallow .003" deep rifling at the muzzle.
The Zouaves will shoot very well. Most need better sights.
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Mine; .575 balls with pillow ticking required hammering down.
Pyrodex, black powder, 777... did not make any difference with the groups.
I Have a Tanner .570 and will try that.
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I'm with you Crank. I don't even consider a load that I have to force down the barrel. My old Zolli Harpers Ferry has a .58 cal. barrel, with a 1-72 twist, three lands and grooves. With the big wide lands in this barrel it is pretty easy to get a ball stuck. To me making it shoot an inch tighter at a hundred yards isn't worth the hassle.
Hungry Horse
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Mine; .575 balls with pillow ticking required hammering down.
Pyrodex, black powder, 777... did not make any difference with the groups.
I Have a Tanner .570 and will try that.
Interesting, I use my left hammer to hold the gun and my right hammer on the wiping stick to shove the load down - no hammering needed, except one blow to seat the ball to the length of the short starter. I find snug loads necessary as I demand accuracy & clean shooting from my rifles.
Also- I've found these military reproductions to shoot better with round balls than they do with slugs. I've worked with a number of Zouave Repros as well as Italian and Parker Hale Enfield military rifles - all lengths, from 24" Musketoons, 32" rifles like the 2 band Enfield as well as Zouaves and to 39" 3-band Enfields. They all required some form of sight alteration, but all were terrific shooters with round balls, less so with slugs.
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With the .575 ball, thinner patches tear, real bad.
I know many target shooters hammer the ball down, but I don't want to .
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You might need to polish the crown some to help when you load those tight combo's. You also might want to lapp the bore some if the crown polishing does'nt cure the torn patch problem.
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As received from the store, ALL muzzleloading rifles need to be re-crowned. There is no such thing as purchasing a rifle with an already crowned muzzle., unless custom made and/or re-crowned by the first owner.
Typically, ALL military rifles have 'SHARP' muzzle crowns.
The rifle on the right is my Enfield Musketoon's muzzle - re-crowned as i do them - emery or wet/dry paper at 320grit and the end of your thumb. I do not use a mallet - I use a short starter, patched round balls and the rifle's rod for loading.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2FCrowns45and58001_zps2a7b2e16.jpg&hash=45c0347af75d9d918bfe3dc7ea9cb2f58fde6cbb) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/Crowns45and58001_zps2a7b2e16.jpg.html)
Rotate the barrel oft times to make the crown even - it will happen perfectly. I first shove a couple patches down the bore to catch the 'filings' and stone particles.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FMuzzle%2520Crowns%2FPB241921.jpg&hash=c7e501ec5c1327d81eedb857710c2fd750f7eeaa) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Muzzle%20Crowns/PB241921.jpg.html)
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I shoot an original 1841 Mississippi that was freshed out to .58 for the Civil War. The Zouave is very similar. I normally shoot minies in it but use round ball for hunting. It has progressive depth 3 groove rifling so a patched ball will fill the shallow grooves at the muzzle but not at the breech end where they're around .015 deep. I use a 14 gauge
fiber cushion wad over the powder to get a better seal and a .570 ball/.018 patch with 90 gr. of 2F.
Duane
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All of the original Minnie rifles had tapered depth rifling. This was an English or European practice, copied by the Armories in "The States" for their .58 and .69 Minnie Rifles.
The English version had .008" deeper grooves in the breech than at the muzzle - commonly .003" at the muzzle and .011" at the breech- or so I've read.
To the best of my knowledge, the reproduction Zouaves do not have progressive depth rifling (pretty sure mine didn't), but perhaps the newer Pedersoli Springfields may have the progressive depth rifling.
On the other hand, the brass mounted (Confederate version) Italian (Armi-San Polo) Model 1861 that I have does have progressive depth rifling. I have not measured it but a bore scope easily shows this feature in it's 5 groove barrel. I was initially concerned there would be powder gas blow-by causing patch burning, however the denim I use (10ounce) survives the trip down the bore and out again at over 1,300fps in perfect condition. For this reason, I figure there must be 'some' obturation of the ball by the charge. I use ONLY real black powder.
In the initial work-up of loads for this rifle, I was able to get it to shoot 3", 5shot groups at 100meters off the bags using 85gr. 2f GOEX. The only loads I chronographed were with my initial starting load of 75gr. GOEX, which gave 1,308fps average, some 300fps faster than Lyman's old book from the 70's gave for equivalent loads. I felt this accuracy was probably as good as I could accomplish with the short sight radius and military sights on the 24" barrel along with my failing eye sight at that time.
I present this under the premise that tapered depth rifling does not spell doom for a patched ball. The muzzle of my rifle has only .003" deep rifling and a .574" bore diameter. The .575" balls I started with, would sit on top of the muzzle with NO patch. I then purchased a Lee Double Cavity mould casting .562" X .562".
These balls are easily loaded with both my 10ounce denim I measure at .0225" compressed and the thicker mattress ticking that I measured at .0235" compressed. I do not use a hammer nor a mallet. I do use a moose antler tipped short starter. Once started, they go down easily.
Starter second from the right is my Musketoon ball starter.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FStarters%2520and%2520Powder%2520Measrues%2FP1142038.jpg&hash=013a280062a7a896e749185114a7507368e56842) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/Starters%20and%20Powder%20Measrues/P1142038.jpg.html)
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I have a Antonio zoli I shoot58 caliber minis with 50 grains at 50 yards bullseye good groups I shoot this gun in competition
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A civil war collector I know has quite a collection of battlefield spent bullets. He showed me a couple he had found that had a .44 pistol ball wedged in the hollow base of the bullet. The balls were tightly sledged into the bullet base, I indicating they had been fired that way, and the marks of the rifling were visible on the bullet skirts. Have any of you seen this before? Have any of you tried this?
HungryHorse
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A civil war collector I know has quite a collection of battlefield spent bullets. He showed me a couple he had found that had a .44 pistol ball wedged in the hollow base of the bullet. The balls were tightly sledged into the bullet base, I indicating they had been fired that way, and the marks of the rifling were visible on the bullet skirts. Have any of you seen this before? Have any of you tried this?
HungryHorse
I did this about 60 years ago and also reshaped the Lyman Minie bullet mould to a rounded nose like a modern .600 Nitro Expreass. It added a lot of weight and with 90 grains of 3fg DuPont hit like a pile driver.
The .451 ball added about 140 grains and the reshaped nose I don't recall what it added.
This would make a dandy hunting load IMHO.
Bob Roller
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Here's the mould "we" bored for my .69 English styled gun. It is adjustable and casts smoothsided Minnie's that must be rolled with a coarse wood rasp for slight enlargement and cuts to hold lube. This mould casts from 580gr. on up to 1,200grs. I used the heavy bullets for weights for my duck decoys by casting cheap fish hooks inside them for "cod-line" attachment.
Lighter 650gr. bullets shot well, but the recoil was a bit more than I liked.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F14%2520Bore%2F69HBmould_zps2ec095f7.jpg&hash=5cc136347221d2f4a8347abd3227260a9b5be428) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/14%20Bore/69HBmould_zps2ec095f7.jpg.html)
You can see a .69" 580gr. "rolled' bullet from this mould, with the 730gr. .69 Minnie above it, then .684" ball, then an expanded .684"pure lead ball from an aspen tree, then above that about 5/8's of a .684" ball for string & card cuts, an experiment that actually worked very well, but felt unfair.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2F14%2520Bore%2FBallfrom4boreto140bore_zps47c92eca.jpg&hash=4b6ce0b202991dd0347b2164913e19560836685c) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/14%20Bore/Ballfrom4boreto140bore_zps47c92eca.jpg.html)
From left to right, they are 4-bore (1"), then .735", .715", .684", .662", .575" with expanded ball from Aspen, 577" Minnie and 750gr. RN Solid - then tiny insignificant balls and some .45 bullets.
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hey Daryl, none of what your saying has anything to do with a Zoli .58 cal with 3 wide lands, and 3 narrow grooves, 1 in 72" twist. Loading a close to bore size ball, with that thick of patching is going to take a sledge hammer in this gun, no matter how much you monkey around with the crown, or grease the patch.
Hungry Horse
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Why would one use a round ball in a Zoli Zouave? Weren't these made to fire .58 caliber Minie ball?
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Yes the Zoli Made guns were theoretically designed for shooting a bullet, rather than a ball. Theoretically is the key phrase. Three lands, and grooves, and a slow twist, isn't very good for shooting a bullet, but can do tolerably well with a round ball. This is why you may see some Zoli's shooting in re-enactments, but serious live fire target work is often done with something with more traditional bullet twists, and rifling configurations.
Hungry Horse
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hey Daryl, none of what your saying has anything to do with a Zoli .58 cal with 3 wide lands, and 3 narrow grooves, 1 in 72" twist. Loading a close to bore size ball, with that thick of patching is going to take a sledge hammer in this gun, no matter how much you monkey around with the crown, or grease the patch.
Hungry Horse
You are in error, Hungry Horse.
My post has everything to do with it loading a Zouave, the crown and load. No sledghammer needed - but I do and did use dead soft balls I tend to call pure lead, even though some could and would argue (because the like to) that they are only 99.6% pure, so therefore they are not pure.
I was using the 10ounce denim (.022")and a .575" ball in my Musketoon which has a .574" bore and only .003" rifling at the muzzle. They took a good smack with my palm on the start starter's knob, but once started, they went down just fine. I now load an easy load, a .562" in the .574" bore, with the same 10 ounce, .022" thick denim patch in those .003" deep rifling.
For my Zouave with 3 grooves .58" that had rifling only about .003" deep, I used a .575" ball and 10 ounce .022" denim patches, just as I use that same ratio of combination in most of my rifles - or if a smaller ball, usually tighter yet.
I load a bit tighter in my .69, a .684" ball, with a 12 ounce (.030")denim patch. I will admit that load is too tight (but not impossible and NO sledghammer) for a WW alloy ball (brinel 12)
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You must have missed this one - earlier on.
Had a Zouave back in the 70's, and another in the 80's. They both shot well and were sold to someone who needed an accurate rifle for hunting. I used 85gr. 2F to 110gr. 2F and they both responded with amazing accuracy, just as Frizzen's gun did. I used .575" dead-soft (pure) lead from (NEW) BC Tel Telephone wire cable sheaths. I cut off the soldered ends as they used 50/50 solder and added those to my modern gun lead mixes. I also used a .20 to .22 thou denim patch, of course. I didn't try the .562" balls but with the thick denim, they'd have been accurate as well. I do shoot .562's in my Musketoon with the .574" bore diameter. I found the .575" a little snug with the thick denim, not too difficult but harder loading than desirable due to the shallow .003" deep rifling at the muzzle.
The Zouaves will shoot very well. Most need better sights.
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What I'm trying to say is not all Zouves were made by Zoli. Some may have been more receptive to a tighter patch ball combo than others.
Hungry Horse
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Maybe:
My first Zouave (not sold by Lyman) was back in the mid 1970's- then another of different make in the mid 80's, then the one Taylor bought in around 2005. All responded to the same loads I started using back in the 70's, although probably of different Italian make ?Antonio Zoli, Armi-San-Polo, etc..
The all had the 3 groove, shallow .003" deep rifling and not of progressive depth as it should have been. Only the Parker Hale and Italian Enfields had progressive depth rifling. They all shot well with .020" denim patching and .575" dead soft lead round balls - Lyman mould- as did the 2 and 3 band Enfields. The 2 band and Musketoon Enfields have 5 groove barrels & 48" twists, while the Zouaves and 3 Band Enfields had 3 groove barrels. The Zouaves also had 72" twists, while the long Enfields had 78" twist. I saw that Lyman in their BP Hand book used the Zouave that they marketed, cut to various barrel lengths from 22" to 32" with .562" balls and .020" patches in all their .58 testing. I chose to use the larger .575" ball and the same thickness patches or thicker yet.
Friend of mine back in the 70's then had a .54 rifle (.535" + .022" denim patches) and his wife a .58 Zouave. She used .575" balls from a 4-cavity Saeco round ball mould for her rifle along with a denim patch. She, as he did, used a short starter then the rifle's rod for ramming it home. Neither had to wipe their bores - ever. Later, he built her a .58 full stocked cap-lock Hawken, in which she used the same ball and patch along with 100gr. 2F. he daughter uses that rifle today, with the same load with no difficulty loading it with a short starter and the rifle's rod.
Lyman's book also had a diagram of what a ball is supposed to look like if pulled after being seated into the rifling - the picture showed cloth marks impressed heavily from the lands and lightly from the grooves - but MARKED all the way around it was. That is how I loaded then and still today in all my guns and I do not have to use any hammers or mallets and certainly not a sledge hammer.
Also- those guns shot well right to the maximum loads listed by Lyman back then with the powders available to me - then. More recently, I use only up to 100gr. 2F and find excellent accuracy with that load, but - I did experiment right up to their load of 180gr. of 1970's era G-O and Curtis And Harvey's 2F, which was closer to musket powder than a rifle powder, power wise.
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Thanks guys. Sorry I didnt get back in here but I been hunting and cutting up game and hunting some more. I will try some of these suggestions. I tried mini bullets, (Buffalo Bullets,) long time ago and it didnt shoot good at all. I figured the twist rate was not fast enough. I had this gun shooting rnd balls good at one time. And yes the sights have been up graded a long time ago. Recently I had it shooting close groups at 50 yrd with 60 grs powder but when I move to 100 yrds it was low off the paper so I put in more powder but never did get any grouping. My question about Goex and Pyrodex,,, why is Goex better that Pyrodex when Pyrodex is soo much cleaner burning.
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O, and one guy said to use FFF and others said FF. Whats best//
Thanks
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My understanding of mini bullets and buffalo bullets are different than yours, the mini has a hollow base and if I'm right the buffalo is a solid base bullet. If that is right you might want to try a hollow base mini bullet and see what performance you get with that. I have never shot either one of those so don't know for sure but others here will be able to verify or correct me on this.
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FYI..One guy shoots PRB because the mould came with the rifle, and the other shoots minies in the musket match, both score about the same.
I have several lbs of free Pyrodex I am using up and Pyrodex shoots as well as BP, but a little higher with the same volume in the Zoli .
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Pyrodex contains a HUGE proportion of it's total mass of a compound called "perchlorate". This is the oxygen producing compound in that propellant and the fouling generated by it, is very corrosive with the addition of ANY moisture at all.
I use 3F in the .45 and .32. I find 2F more accurate in the .50 and larger calibers, however I developed extremely accurate loads (just as accurate as 3F) in my .45 & .40 using 2F, just in case I ever ran out of 3F.
No - 2f does not foul any more than 3F - for us, at least - I have NEVER seen this and have been shooting both since 1972.
Because 3F develops more pressures per grain than 2F does, maximum pressure loads for any given bore size when using 3F will be reached with less powder weight, than maximum loads would be in 2F.
When the same maximum pressure is developed using 2F as is developed with 3F, the 2f load will usually be producing not only better or the same accuracy, but in larger calibres, from .50 on up, higher velocity, which means flatter trajectory. Yes - the 2F load contains more grains weight, ie: fewer shots in a pound of powder.
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Pyrodex contains a HUGE proportion of it's total mass of a compound called "perchlorate". This is the oxygen producing compound in that propellant and the fouling generated by it, is very corrosive with the addition of ANY moisture at all.
I use 3F in the .45 and .32. I find 2F more accurate in the .50 and larger calibers, however I developed extremely accurate loads (just as accurate as 3F) in my .45 & .40 using 2F, just in case I ever ran out of 3F.
No - 2f does not foul any more than 3F - for us, at least - I have NEVER seen this and have been shooting both since 1972.
Because 3F develops more pressures per grain than 2F does, maximum pressure loads for any given bore size when using 3F will be reached with less powder weight, than maximum loads would be in 2F.
When the same maximum pressure is developed using 2F as is developed with 3F, the 2f load will usually be producing not only better or the same accuracy, but in larger calibres, from .50 on up, higher velocity, which means flatter trajectory. Yes - the 2F load contains more grains weight, ie: fewer shots in a pound of powder.
What D said. ;D ;) 8)
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Dararl; No I wasn't asking about the differance in fouling of 2F or 3F, I was asking the differance of fouling of black powder like Goex and Pyrodex.
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I don't use Pyrodex - (& you shouldn't either) so I can't answer that. I don't get any fouling buildup with real black powder, so there is no fouling problem with black powder to stat with.
If you have to use a phony powder, then the 'Ogre" who knows all this stuff, says he would use Hodgdon's T-7 (Triple 7) as it doesn't not contain perchlorates. I don't use that either, although I was given a couple plastic cans of it some time ago. Still have it in reserve if I need to shoot and don't have any real BP.
If you live in the States, you can have real black powder delivered to your door.
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To all who is concerned. Again I am not new to blackpowder but always willing to learn more and with new products comeing on,, its good to know,, and its hard to give up the old school. I spent about 40 min on the phone with Mike at Hodgdon and got the low down on powders. He is a ML hunter with many yrs expirence hunting and powders so in my book I am listening. He said Triple 7 does not have any sulfer in it and that is is way less corrosive than Pyrodex or Goex or real black powder. He also said it burns hotter and faster so you dont have to use as much. The corosion benifit is all I needed to hear to change over. Yes I will clean ASAP but if I see less or NO red on my patches during cleaning and drying barrel thats good for me. If any one has anymore factual info on powders, I am willing to listen. Thanks Dennis
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It is the Perchlorates fouling that is corrosive in Pyrodex (17% of the composition : 17% of the load, ie: 17 gr. of a 100gr. charge, is Perchlorate), just as it was in the old corrosive primers which rotted barrels with a minuscule amount ion each modern rifle shot, compared to each shot from a muzzleloader using Pyrodex. Those corrosive primers used Perchlorates in the primer composition - Perchlorates, not sulfur.
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Repeat...I have seen a number of bbls pitted, where the owner used only BP.
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Proper Cleaning is good.
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It is the Perchlorates fouling that is corrosive in Pyrodex (17% of the composition : 17% of the load, ie: 17 gr. of a 100gr. charge, is Perchlorate), just as it was in the old corrosive primers which rotted barrels with a minuscule amount ion each modern rifle shot, compared to each shot from a muzzleloader using Pyrodex. Those corrosive primers used Perchlorates in the primer composition - Perchlorates, not sulfur.
Yeah, but he was talking to the company man, literally.
Wondering if Dennis ever got his shootin' irons to work properly. We can't know if he was making 4-inch "non groups" or 9-inch "non groups" at any range with any conditions. Like to help a fella get his group together.
Dennis, if you'll look 'em up, the are many threads on powders here and ANYtime "MadMonk" speaks on the subject you are hearing the TRUTH from an impartial source with all the scientific experience/credentials to back it up.
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O, and one guy said to use FFF and others said FF. Whats best//
Thanks
Whichever one shoots best in your rifle.
Because of the possibility of running out of one granulation or the other - I work up accuracy loads for my rifles with both 3F and 2F- and record the results. I use an adjustable measure when working up loads, then make a powder measure from ctg. brass or brass tubing with a wooden plug to hold that amount.
For example: In a .40 cal rifle, 65gr. 3F gave the best accuracy with a .398" or .400" ball and 10 ounce denim patch lubed with original LHValley. The velocity produced was 2,260fps. This barrel required 75gr. 2F GOEX, same ball and patch to match that velocity (2,270fps) and produced the same accuracy.
My .45 needed 75gr. 3F and 85gr. 2F. It's velocity was just over 2,200fps with both loads.
My .69 only gets 2F nowadays. I did test 2F and 3F in it a couple weeks ago, running it over Taylor's chronograph. Interestingly enough, 2F produced higher velocities than 3F, when the loads were over 82gr. At 82gr. for both, 3F exceeded 2f's speed by only a few fps. I was using a 15 bore ball (pure and WW alloy) and 14 ounce denim. This stuff runs about .035" with my calipers compressed as tightly as I could manage.
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Thinking back to the late 70's when I was shooting a Zouave as well as a 66" twist .58 Hawken, the Hawken with Large barrel shot best with the .575" pure lead ball, .022" brushed denim patch and 140gr. 2F GOEX, C&H or Meteor- whatever I had at that time. HA!- can't remember the powder name as I used them all, however the shooting then was at 100 yards only, on paper. My Zouave, although having a 72" twist and shallow rifling, used the same patches and balls, however it shot well (100yards) with 120gr. 2F.
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I picked up a Euroarms Zuave a couple years ago to replace a different zuave that I had to sell to pay for school many years ago. This thread made me curious about what it would shoot like so I took it out to the range to see. Using only 50 grn of Goex 3f and a patched round ball, .575 ball, .15 patch shot a respectable group of 2" at 50 yrds. It was about 4" high at the 12: position. This was with unaltered factory sights. I know it will do better with some modification to tighten the floppy multi leaf affair. This rifle is much better shooting than that first one. That first one I had was a gift from my dad for Christmas in 1978 it was made by Ultra Hi out of Japan. The lock on the Euroarms rifle is much smoother and the trigger pull is far superior as well. I am very pleased with my acquisition. Who is that actual manufacturer of the Euroarms zuave in Italy?
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,,, why is Goex better that Pyrodex when Pyrodex is soo much cleaner burning.
Goex has the correct stink. Pyrodex smells like burning rubber instead of rotten eggs! Seriously, I don't use Pyrodex because the residue is so corrosive.
In answer to your 2F or 3F question-- try both and go with the one that gives best accuracy.
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Dararl; No I wasn't asking about the differance in fouling of 2F or 3F, I was asking the differance of fouling of black powder like Goex and Pyrodex.
Several years ago I was active on another forum that normally did NOT allow
Pyrodex to be mentioned. I raised the question as to why it was so corrosive
and got a number of answers from people with degrees in chemistry.
The ONE that stood out was this one. "If you want to kill yourself,take a cup full
of this powder into a closet,close to door and ignite it and the smoke which was
said to be cyanide would do a bloodless job of killing."No use for it at all IMHO
and it can ruin a barrel quickly.
Bob Roller
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As per Mad Monk, P has 5% dicyanamide , which went heated breaks down into cyanide gas. Not too much of a problem when fired outdoors [ i.e. good ventilation ], but not something you want to experience indoors . Before anyone uses any of the substitute powders, I would highly recommend looking up Mad Monk's writings .
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Dararl; No I wasn't asking about the differance in fouling of 2F or 3F, I was asking the differance of fouling of black powder like Goex and Pyrodex.
There is less fouling produced with ANY of the phony powders, than real BP.
However, loaded correctly, there is No - as in ZERO fouling buildup with real BP.
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try both. either one will work but the gun will show you what it likes best. I like using 2F in my 58 rifle. Its not a Zuave rifle though--its an early english short rifle.
When I had my Zuave way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I used 2f Goex bp --and even used the dreaded pyrodex substitute powder.
K
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This is a great thread.
Back in the 70's my Brother and I used the "zouve" rifled guns for deer hunting and they stot fine with round ball or minie with 60 gr or so.
Since then we have gone pretty much all flintlock and let go of the Zouves.
A few years ago I came across a rifled barrel blank three lands and grooves and what appeared to be 58 cal. The ourside was just straight mill finish about 1-1/2" OD.
I bought it cheap of the guy at the gun show and neither of us were sure what it was.
I have a retired machinist friend that I took it to and we turned it down to a straight taper barrel that I used the OD measurements off and old original Enfield to determine, approx.
Finally built it into aflintlock for PA deer season.
It is not a tack driver bot at 35 yds will stay in a snuff can and at 100 yds, a paper plate.
Still waiting to see what it will do to a white tail!
I tried attaching a photo but just cant do it?
Best to all
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Myself, I stay away from anything not Black...except women...I like women. Too many bore nightmares with the subs. I won't shoot any of it because I don't know a lot about it. Some pits badly, some not so bad and others again, not at all. I'll just use black and be safe.
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Myself, I stay away from anything not Black...except women...I like women. Too many bore nightmares with the subs. I won't shoot any of it because I don't know a lot about it. Some pits badly, some not so bad and others again, not at all. I'll just use black and be safe.
I like womerns too! ;D
I pitted a revolver bore with the Pyro-cyanidex and flat out ruined my first BP rifle's bbl with it and gave it away as junk (and didn't have a BP gun for another ~20 years).
Black is so very much safer. Caps have some bad stuff in them, but I don't buy those anymore (and mainly just pit up the flash area).
After reading about three to five of Mad Monk's posts a few years ago, I poured out my last containers of Pyro-pittex onto a rock and set it ablaze. It was kinda hard to start and good riddance. I'd rather not shoot than drop that stuff down my bore. I understand if you _must_ for jurisdictional or economic reasons. But where a person has a choice or only a small upcharge to pay, I strongly urge all to consider the consequences if he/she likes his/her lands and grooves to stay smooth and silky.
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I shoot round balls in a 1803 Harpers Ferry that uses the same rifling the Zoli Zouave has. I shoot a .562 ball molded from a Lee mold, with an 18 thousandths pillow ticking patch. It loads easy, doesn't require swabbing between shots, and shoots rings around the bullets. I also shoot black powder, and use any Pyrodex, and it's evil twins, for fertilizer.
Hungry Horse
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Dave B
I bought a Euroarms rifle back in the eighties, gave less than a hundred dollars for it, brand new. It was made in Italy, by Aldo Uberti.
It' not a Zuave, and I don't know how it shoots, I've never shot it.
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Uberti guns back then, while not perhaps as high quality as they are today, were still better than the normal run of guns from Italy.
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thanks for the Reply Threeballs. The fit and finish on this rifle is excellent compared to the Ultra hi Zuave. the ultra hi lock had such a heavy trigger pull I made an attempt to lighten it up and only succeed in having the sear nose break off when it caught in the half cock notch. Lucked out at a gunshow and found a replacement lock. It also was too heavy on the trigger pull but I left it alone. I feel sure that Uberti made this one I have now. The action is smooth as glass and the trigger pull is clean with no creep. I look forward to spending a little more time at the range with her.
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I'm coming along kinda late to this. Why do PRBs require so much stiffer loads than what these old CW era rifles would have been issued at that time? Not that Zoauve rifles made it to the fight or anything ;D The standard US arsenal loading was normally around 65 gr M powder for the Minie bullet. Just curious is all, and I'm sure many around here have much more time shooting these that I have.
As an aside, does anyone have a picture or link to a picture of the old .54 cal M1841 Mississippi rifle arsenal cartridge? The kind that had the ball wrapped in linen and tied to the paper cartridge.
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The skirt of the Minie' ball would flare upon exiting if the powder charge was much more than 65 grains. Thus the heavier loads with a ball.
Bob
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I'm coming along kinda late to this. Why do PRBs require so much stiffer loads than what these old CW era rifles would have been issued at that time? Not that Zoauve rifles made it to the fight or anything ;D The standard US arsenal loading was normally around 65 gr M powder for the Minie bullet. Just curious is all, and I'm sure many around here have much more time shooting these that I have.
As an aside, does anyone have a picture or link to a picture of the old .54 cal M1841 Mississippi rifle arsenal cartridge? The kind that had the ball wrapped in linen and tied to the paper cartridge.
Further to Bob's post, we use loads with patched round balls & loads that give the best accuracy in our rifles for shooting smaller targets than what the military needed. The military has different criteria for target - their target is roughly 5 1/2 feet tall x 15" wide. Their intent was to wound or kill- didn't matter as if wounded with a .58 cal. or .69 cal. bullet which they called a ball, would generally incapacitate that enemy - take him out of the fight and probably kill him anyway.
With patched round balls we need flatter trajectories to hit well without having to know range. Military rifles were generally sighted high, meaning they hit higher than the point of aim, not a bad thing as their target was roughly 2feet taller than the point of aim, which usually was the gut area - thus their arching trajectory (no point blank range) did not matter. Hold in the middle of the man right out to about 150yards or so and you will take him out of the battle - wounded or dead, no matter, one was as good as the other and the wounded soldier had a poor chance of survival anyway.
With patched round balls we wish to kill game quickly, not merely wound them. Thus, we need velocity for accuracy over unknown ranges, and penetrative power through higher speeds as well. It can be easily shown in our rifles, that 65 to 75gr. of powder is most accuracy in a .40 to .45 and 80 to 100gr. is most accurate in a .50, 90 to 115gr. better in a .54, etc. The powder charges needed, usually increase as the bore size increases, to the point where it is not comfortable to shoot the larger bores. Thus, I am considering buying a 20 bore barrel to replace my current 14 bore barrel. I already have the moulds, so why not?
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Thanks for the clear explanations Bob and Daryl. :D
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O, and one guy said to use FFF and others said FF. Whats best//
Thanks
Which ever works best in your barrel . I use the FFG in anything over .40 . .570 rb , ticking , and between 60 and 75 grains of FFG is what I shoot in my early Zoli when I am not shooting a Minnie . In minnies I shoot the Ideal 575213 improved version of the OS straight out of the mold with the old amber colored Lithium based cup grease in the base and a light smear on the grooves . Usually shoot 70 grains of FFg for hunting and a lot less for short range (25- 50 ) target .
Eddie
Eddie
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Seven hundred years experience with powder made from potassium nitrate, sulphur and charcoal.
So you really wanna use some artificial powder with a few decades experience?
BTW pitting in a black powder caplock gun may also be from corrosive caps. Or the salt water many swear buy as a bore cleaner. Yeah, percussion caps used to be corrosive, from the chlorate used in the priming compound.
BP itself, I don't really know but am fairly sure, is not all that corrosive. Early rifles using smokeless often have badly corroded bores now. Those shot only with black, and the same type primers, are often OK. Seems to me one of the products of combustion, black powder, is potassium carbonate. Which is slippery. It is also called potash, and to some degree inhibits corrosion from primer chloride residue, and whatever nasty sulphur compounds are formed.
Yeah, I like black. But then, I do live in the US and have had more powder than I'll ever use delivered to my door.
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One other aspect of the differences between military thinking and hunters, is that the military considered ricochets as extending "the effective range of fire" for any sight setting. Thus, they could aim 'center of mass' out to about 300yards with the close range sight picture and quite likely expect to hit 'someone' - 'hitting' being as much the intent as killing. The conical shaped somewhat pointy Minnie balls bounced even better than round balls. YAHOO