.58 Zuave round balls, Load?

[smylee grouch]

My understanding of mini bullets and buffalo bullets are different than yours, the mini has a hollow base and if I'm right the buffalo is a solid base bullet. If that is right you might want to try a hollow base mini bullet and see what performance you get with that. I have never shot either one of those so don't know for sure but others here will be able to verify or correct me on this.

[crankshaft]

 FYI..One guy shoots PRB because the mould came with the rifle, and the other shoots minies in the musket match, both score about the same.
 I have several lbs of free Pyrodex I am using up and Pyrodex  shoots as well as BP, but a little higher with the same volume in the Zoli .

[Daryl]

Pyrodex contains a HUGE proportion of it's total mass of a compound called "perchlorate". This is the oxygen producing compound in that propellant and the fouling generated by it, is very corrosive with the addition of ANY moisture at all.

I use 3F in the .45 and .32.  I find 2F more accurate in the .50 and larger calibers, however I developed extremely accurate loads (just as accurate as 3F) in my .45 & .40 using 2F, just in case I ever ran out of 3F.

No - 2f does not foul any more than 3F - for us, at least - I have NEVER seen this and have been shooting both since 1972.

Because 3F develops more pressures per grain than 2F does, maximum pressure loads for any given bore size when using 3F will be reached with less powder weight, than maximum loads would be in 2F.
 
When the same maximum pressure is developed using 2F as is developed with 3F, the 2f load will usually be producing not only better or the same accuracy, but in larger calibres, from .50 on up, higher velocity, which means flatter trajectory. Yes - the 2F load contains more grains weight, ie: fewer shots in a pound of powder. 

[WadePatton]

Pyrodex contains a HUGE proportion of it's total mass of a compound called "perchlorate". This is the oxygen producing compound in that propellant and the fouling generated by it, is very corrosive with the addition of ANY moisture at all.

I use 3F in the .45 and .32.  I find 2F more accurate in the .50 and larger calibers, however I developed extremely accurate loads (just as accurate as 3F) in my .45 & .40 using 2F, just in case I ever ran out of 3F.

No - 2f does not foul any more than 3F - for us, at least - I have NEVER seen this and have been shooting both since 1972.

Because 3F develops more pressures per grain than 2F does, maximum pressure loads for any given bore size when using 3F will be reached with less powder weight, than maximum loads would be in 2F.
 
When the same maximum pressure is developed using 2F as is developed with 3F, the 2f load will usually be producing not only better or the same accuracy, but in larger calibres, from .50 on up, higher velocity, which means flatter trajectory. Yes - the 2F load contains more grains weight, ie: fewer shots in a pound of powder. 

What D said.   

[Barnstormer]

Dararl;  No I wasn't asking about the differance in fouling of 2F or 3F, I was asking the differance of fouling of black powder like Goex and Pyrodex.   

[Daryl]

I don't use Pyrodex - (& you shouldn't either) so I can't answer that. I don't get any fouling buildup with real black powder, so there is no fouling problem with black powder to stat with.

If you have to use a phony powder, then the 'Ogre" who knows all this stuff, says he would use Hodgdon's T-7 (Triple 7) as it doesn't not contain perchlorates.   I don't use that either, although I was given a couple plastic cans of it some time ago. Still have it in reserve if I need to shoot and don't have any real BP.

If you live in the States, you can have real black powder delivered to your door.

[Barnstormer]

To all who is concerned.  Again I am not new to blackpowder but always willing to learn more and with new products comeing on,, its good to know,, and its hard to give up the old school.  I spent about 40 min on the phone with Mike at Hodgdon and got the low down on powders.  He is a ML hunter with many yrs expirence hunting and powders so in my book I am listening.    He said Triple 7 does not have any sulfer in it and that is is way less corrosive than Pyrodex or Goex or real black powder.  He also said it burns hotter and faster so you dont have to use as much.   The corosion benifit is all I needed to hear to change over.  Yes I will clean ASAP but if I see less or NO red on my patches during cleaning and drying barrel thats good for me.   If any one has anymore factual info on powders, I am willing to listen.  Thanks  Dennis

[Daryl]

It is the Perchlorates fouling that is corrosive in Pyrodex (17% of the composition : 17% of the load, ie: 17 gr. of a 100gr. charge, is Perchlorate), just as it was in the old corrosive primers which rotted barrels with a minuscule amount ion each modern rifle shot, compared to each shot from a muzzleloader using Pyrodex.  Those corrosive primers used Perchlorates in the primer composition - Perchlorates, not sulfur.

[crankshaft]

 Repeat...I have seen a number of bbls pitted, where the owner used only BP.
.
 Proper Cleaning is good.
.
.

[WadePatton]

It is the Perchlorates fouling that is corrosive in Pyrodex (17% of the composition : 17% of the load, ie: 17 gr. of a 100gr. charge, is Perchlorate), just as it was in the old corrosive primers which rotted barrels with a minuscule amount ion each modern rifle shot, compared to each shot from a muzzleloader using Pyrodex.  Those corrosive primers used Perchlorates in the primer composition - Perchlorates, not sulfur.

Yeah, but he was talking to the company man, literally.

Wondering if Dennis ever got his shootin' irons to work properly.  We can't know if he was making 4-inch "non groups" or 9-inch "non groups" at any range with any conditions.  Like to help a fella get his group together. 

Dennis, if you'll look 'em up, the are many threads on powders here and ANYtime "MadMonk" speaks on the subject you are hearing the TRUTH from an impartial source with all the scientific experience/credentials to back it up. 

 

[Daryl]

O, and one guy said to use FFF and others said FF.  Whats best//

Thanks

Whichever one shoots best in your rifle.

Because of the possibility of running out of one granulation or the other - I work up accuracy loads for my rifles with both 3F and 2F- and record the results.  I use an adjustable measure when working up loads, then make a powder measure from ctg. brass or brass tubing with a wooden plug to hold that amount.

For example:  In a .40 cal rifle, 65gr. 3F gave the best accuracy with a .398" or .400" ball and 10 ounce denim patch lubed with original LHValley. The velocity produced was 2,260fps.  This barrel required 75gr. 2F GOEX, same ball and patch to match that velocity (2,270fps) and produced the same accuracy.
My .45 needed 75gr. 3F and 85gr. 2F.  It's velocity was just over 2,200fps with both loads.

My .69 only gets 2F nowadays. I did test 2F and 3F in it a couple weeks ago, running it over Taylor's chronograph. Interestingly enough, 2F produced higher velocities than 3F, when the loads were over 82gr.  At 82gr. for both, 3F exceeded 2f's speed by only a few fps. I was using a 15 bore ball (pure and WW alloy) and 14 ounce denim. This stuff runs about .035" with my calipers compressed as tightly as I could manage.

[Daryl]

Thinking back to the late 70's when I was shooting a Zouave as well as a 66" twist .58 Hawken, the Hawken with Large barrel shot best with the .575" pure lead ball, .022" brushed denim patch and 140gr. 2F GOEX, C&H or Meteor- whatever I had at that time.  HA!- can't remember the powder name as I used them all, however the shooting then was at 100 yards only, on paper.  My Zouave, although having a 72" twist and shallow rifling, used the same patches and balls, however it shot well (100yards) with 120gr. 2F.

[Dave B]

I picked up a Euroarms Zuave a couple years ago to replace a different zuave that I had to sell to pay for school many years ago.  This thread made me curious about what it would shoot like so I took it out to the range to see.  Using only 50 grn of Goex  3f and a patched round ball, .575 ball, .15 patch shot a respectable group of 2"  at 50 yrds.  It was about 4" high at the 12: position.  This was with unaltered factory sights. I know it will do better with some modification to tighten the floppy multi leaf affair. This rifle is much better shooting than that first one. That first one I had was a gift from my dad for Christmas in 1978 it was made by Ultra Hi out of Japan. The lock on the Euroarms rifle is much smoother and the trigger pull is far superior as well. I am very pleased with my acquisition. Who is that actual manufacturer of the Euroarms zuave in Italy?

[L. Akers]

,,, why is Goex better that Pyrodex when Pyrodex is soo much cleaner burning.

Goex has the correct stink.  Pyrodex smells like burning rubber instead of rotten eggs!  Seriously, I don't use Pyrodex because the residue is so corrosive.

In answer to your 2F or 3F question-- try both and go with the one that gives best accuracy.

[Bob Roller]

Dararl;  No I wasn't asking about the differance in fouling of 2F or 3F, I was asking the differance of fouling of black powder like Goex and Pyrodex.

Several years ago I was active on another forum that normally did NOT allow
Pyrodex to be mentioned. I raised the question as to why it was so corrosive
and got a number of answers from people with degrees in chemistry.
The ONE that stood out was this one. "If you want to kill yourself,take a cup full
of this powder into a closet,close to door and ignite it and the smoke which was
said to be cyanide would do a bloodless job of killing."No use for it at all IMHO
and it can ruin a barrel quickly.

Bob Roller

[bob in the woods]

As per Mad Monk, P has 5% dicyanamide , which went heated breaks down into cyanide gas. Not too much of a problem when fired outdoors [ i.e. good ventilation ], but not something you want to experience indoors .   Before anyone uses any of the substitute powders, I would highly recommend looking up Mad Monk's writings . 

[Daryl]

Dararl;  No I wasn't asking about the differance in fouling of 2F or 3F, I was asking the differance of fouling of black powder like Goex and Pyrodex.

There is less fouling produced with ANY of the phony powders, than real BP.

However, loaded correctly, there is No - as in ZERO fouling buildup with real BP.

[axelp]

try both. either one will work but the gun will show you what it likes best. I like using 2F in my 58 rifle. Its not a Zuave rifle though--its an early english short rifle.
When I had my Zuave way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I used 2f Goex bp --and even used the dreaded pyrodex substitute powder.

K

[Bigmon]

This is a great thread.
Back in the 70's my Brother and I used the "zouve" rifled guns for deer hunting and they stot fine with round ball or minie with 60 gr or so.
Since then we have gone pretty much all flintlock and let go of the Zouves.
A few years ago I came across a rifled barrel blank three lands and grooves and what appeared to be 58 cal.  The ourside was just straight mill finish about 1-1/2" OD.
I bought it cheap of the guy at the gun show and neither of us were sure what it was.
I have a retired machinist friend that I took it to and we turned it down to a straight taper barrel that I used the OD measurements off and old original Enfield to determine, approx.
Finally built it into aflintlock for PA deer season.
It is not a tack driver bot at 35 yds will stay in a snuff can and at 100 yds, a paper plate.
Still waiting to see what it will do to a white tail!
I tried attaching a photo but just cant do it?
Best to all

[Vomitus]

Myself, I stay away from anything not Black...except women...I like women. Too many bore nightmares with the subs. I won't shoot any of it because I don't know a lot about it. Some pits badly, some not so bad and others again, not at all. I'll just use black and be safe.

[WadePatton]

Myself, I stay away from anything not Black...except women...I like women. Too many bore nightmares with the subs. I won't shoot any of it because I don't know a lot about it. Some pits badly, some not so bad and others again, not at all. I'll just use black and be safe.

I like womerns too! 

I pitted a revolver bore with the Pyro-cyanidex and flat out ruined my first BP rifle's bbl with it and gave it away as junk (and didn't have a BP gun for another ~20 years).

Black is so very much safer.  Caps have some bad stuff in them, but I don't buy those anymore (and mainly just pit up the flash area).

After reading about three to five of Mad Monk's posts a few years ago, I poured out my last containers of Pyro-pittex onto a rock and set it ablaze.  It was kinda hard to start and good riddance.  I'd rather not shoot than drop that stuff down my bore.  I understand if you _must_ for jurisdictional or economic reasons. But where a person has a choice or only a small upcharge to pay, I strongly urge all to consider the consequences if he/she likes his/her lands and grooves to stay smooth and silky. 

[Hungry Horse]

I shoot round balls in a 1803 Harpers Ferry that uses the same rifling the Zoli Zouave has. I shoot a .562 ball molded from a Lee mold, with an 18 thousandths pillow ticking patch. It loads easy, doesn't require swabbing between shots, and shoots rings around the bullets. I also shoot black powder, and use any Pyrodex,  and it's evil twins, for fertilizer.

  Hungry Horse

[Three balls]

Dave B
I bought a Euroarms rifle back in the eighties, gave less than a hundred dollars for it, brand new. It was made in Italy, by Aldo Uberti.
It' not a Zuave, and I don't know how it shoots, I've never shot it.

[Daryl]

Uberti guns back then, while not perhaps as high quality as they are today, were still better than the normal run of guns from Italy.

[Dave B]

thanks for the Reply Threeballs. The fit and finish on this rifle is excellent compared to the Ultra hi Zuave. the ultra hi lock had such a heavy trigger pull I made an attempt to lighten it up and only succeed  in having  the sear nose  break off when it caught in the half cock notch. Lucked out at a gunshow and found a replacement lock. It also was too heavy on the trigger pull but I left it alone.  I feel sure that Uberti made this one I have now. The action is smooth as glass and the trigger pull is clean with no creep. I look forward to spending a little more time at the range with her.