AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: smart dog on February 13, 2016, 02:50:31 AM
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Hi Folks,
Next project is an English rifle circa 1740-1760. It has a Rice 31" 62 cal Jaeger barrel with a standing breech. The lock is Chamber's round-faced English lock and the stock is well figured English walnut. Most of the hardware will be highly engraved steel but the sideplate and wrist escutcheon will be cast and sculpted fine silver. There will also be carving and fine silver wire inlay. The architecture is closely based on the Turvey rifle (RCA #14) but with a major change. The buttplate is modeled after one on an original English fowler I purchased from Jim Kibler. That buttplate changes the profile of the stock considerably from the Turvey rifle and makes it more elegant by far. I will post photos as I proceed.
dave
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FEnglish%2520rifle%25201_zpsxzo9m1vu.jpg&hash=934570706fa47537a268a72be0b04274b6e1beb2)
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Can you please explain the odd screw in the buttplate. Thanks Dan
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Hi Whaleman,
It is not at all odd for an English gun. Do a little research on English fowlers and military guns and you will understand. It will be countersunk deeper to be flush.
dave
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Those dark strips in the butt will really be nice!!
Here is a photo of some English flintlock guns.
The top one is a 6 bore (.92cal.) nice, eh!
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv638%2FDarylS%2FEnglish%2520Guns%2F1-2srockandfullstockEngoishRifles.jpg&hash=1bef842c0355c6853cf6f9bdc2a299d1114125c0) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/English%20Guns/1-2srockandfullstockEngoishRifles.jpg.html)
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Mortimer,Manton, and Twigg I think. Notice the scroll trigger guard Hawkin,s fans. Looks like a nice project and chunk of wood Dave. ;D
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Hi Daryl,
Thanks for the photos. Of course, all of those guns were made at least 2-3 decades after the style of gun I am making. Thanks again.
dave
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Smart dog
How much drop do you have on that rifle?
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Smart Dog
I am interested in what trigger or triggers your planning on useing
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That ought to be fine. A bit more drop than I like, but I don't have to shoot it. I like just the two keys, so i assume it has a hooked breech? Nothing like a nice English Hawkins rifle.
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Hi and thanks for looking,
Jerry, the drop is 3" and LOP is 13 5/8". Elk Killer, the trigger will be a simple scrolled trigger and it will be pinned in the stock. I will make the trigger and plate. The guard will have a simple oval bow like most English fowlers. Mike, it has a hooked breech (standing) with 2 barrel keys. There eventually will be a matching fowling gun with identical hardware but a 42" 20 ga barrel. The bottom of the butt stock of the rifle will be flattened like the Turvey gun but the fowler will have the typical rounded bottom.
dave
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Smart dog.
That's my kind of gun. I hope to make one with a twigg lock. I have a Twigg safety lock.
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Hi Daryl,
Thanks for the photos. Of course, all of those guns were made at least 2-3 decades after the style of gun I am making. Thanks again.
dave
Ok - I thought #3 was more in line, but it seems a rather advanced lock, perhaps.
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Hi Daryl,
Yes, No. 3 is likely the earliest and probably dates from after 1770. If you have Shumway's "Rifles in Colonial America" vol 1 the Turvey rifle (#14) is from the period (1740s-50s) I am inspired by. Regardless, thank you for the photos. I've stored them away in my photo library.
I've posted this picture before, but this is the silver sideplate. I have to make a duplicate for the fowler.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FSilverSideplateforEnglishfowler.jpg&hash=cd5636948099830cb4b552bf9b0209b125c5e787)
dave
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Dave- It's gonna be a little chilly on your ridge tonight. I think we might be a couple of degrees warmer here in tropical southern Vt though. I like this project you have going on right now. Interested to see how the English walnut will finish up. Throw a few more sticks on the fire. It's been an easy winter so far. Tom
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Hi Telgan,
Thanks. It looks like 40-50 below with the wind chill. The wind barrels over Braintree and Cushman Mountains and hits me with no barrier. I have a good wood fire going and a good dinner prepared and ready to snug down, but I miss my dog.
dave
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Love those English pieces, and I'm sure this one will be a real beauty! Plan on doing any checkering on the wrist?... Looking good, Dave! I feel for you missing Bella, it's so hard...
I'm currently working on a European rifle, and found myself being drawn more and more to these types of builds, so really looking forward to your progress. Best,
Ed
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Thanks Ed,
I too am drawn to European guns, particularly from the 17th century. I love the decorative wood carvings, engraving, and inlay work from that century. I think it represented the peak of firearm decoration and artistry in Europe. I have some of those pieces in the pipeline if I can get to them. If all goes as I intend, this little rifle will have an unusual and hopefully beautiful decorative feature. That is, if I can master it.
dave
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Great stuff Dave,please keep us updated with your progress!! Looks like a great project!!!!!!!!
Mitch
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Hi,
Thanks Mitch. It will be fun. Ed, I forgot to answer your question about checkering. I won't checker the wrist because the style of the gun predates the fashion of checkering by a few decades.
dave
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Got'cha... Looking forward to the progress.
Ed
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Hi you wonderful group of guys and gals,
I've made some progress on this English rifle. I have a lot of wood still to remove and shaping to be done but this gives you a sense of the rifle. Soon, I have to inlet the sideplate, which means I break out my collection of really little chisels. Oh Boy! I left the patchbox oversize so I can whittle it down as I go and merge it with my design. I wet the wood so you can see the figure. I still have to carve my wrist inlay in wax and cast it in silver and design the wood carving. This is fun.
dave
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FEnglish%2520rifle%25204_zpsvy33ngv2.jpg&hash=a1ab19f54d159cf0000cb91ebff8cf7944ef9821)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FEnglish%2520rifle%25205_zpsqgawkjep.jpg&hash=aad214470c3ec9d9f36e15214a1e9b840914e46c)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FEnglish%2520rifle%25206_zpsm6tbkzky.jpg&hash=912d955f650dfe65d12b8ff4fbc834afd3eef655)
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That really looks good Dave. I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing more about his build as you progress.
Thanks, Carl.
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Nicer lookin wood than I first thought,
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Telgan, I happen to have a nice smooth Bess-like barrel just waiting for a project like this.
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I love English walnut. Nice, nice rifle.
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Dave........Can't wait to see the finished rifle..and matching fowler...Oh Boy!
There's a couple dozen guys here that are inspiring.
Proud member of "The Smart Dog Fan Club"
Thanks for posting Dave...
Time to get a new pup!
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That's looking great Dave.
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Thanks for looking guys,
Waterfowl, I don't know what to say except thank you for the compliment. I hope I don't disappoint you folks. Hopefully, this beautiful piece of wood won't be wasted on me. I learned something very useful so far during this build that I would like to share. I've used hooked tang and breeches on a lot of guns over the years and always anchored them by tight inletting and the tang bolt. On this gun, I took a tip from a couple of original English guns that I inspected, and installed a small bolt that is hidden under the trigger guard and threaded into the bottom of the standing breech (tang). Along with the tang bolt, the little bolt holds the tang down tightly such that I can fit the hook to snap into it with a very firm fit without risking levering it up and out of its inlet. It really works well and allows the breech of the barrel to be very firmly held in the tang.
dave
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What a great idea. Really shows the benefit of close inspection of a lot of original pieces. I never would have thought of that on my own.
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David,
The rifle looks fantastic !!! Did you carve and cast the side plate ? It's really beautiful.
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What a great looking piece that is going to be. Dave, I think I have seen that bottom bolt up to the tang arrangement on a Purdey (sp) plan but can't remember if the head of the bolt just bottoms out in the wood or if there was some washer arrangement for the bolt to butt up against. Sounds like a great idea any way you do it.
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HI Dave,
Thanks for looking. I made the side plate by carving a hard green wax model and then casting it in fine silver using the Delft clay method. I then cleaned and sharpened up the detail using die sinkers chisels and my gravers. The design is my own but inspired by the side plate on a 1740s fowler by James Freeman Jr. The London silversmith on that gun was likely Jeremiah Ashley who was much sought after by the gun trade. I want to make a duplicate for the matching fowler and a scaled-down version for a horse pistol. My ultimate plan is to have a matched set that includes the rifle, fowler, horse pistol, and turn-off pistol, all in 20 gauge, with silver and steel hardware and decoration of similar motifs. Hopefully, I will live long enough to get it all done. I guess I can at least dream.
dave
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Thanks for looking guys,
Waterfowl, I don't know what to say except thank you for the compliment. I hope I don't disappoint you folks. Hopefully, this beautiful piece of wood won't be wasted on me. I learned something very useful so far during this build that I would like to share. I've used hooked tang and breeches on a lot of guns over the years and always anchored them by tight inletting and the tang bolt. On this gun, I took a tip from a couple of original English guns that I inspected, and installed a small bolt that is hidden under the trigger guard and threaded into the bottom of the standing breech (tang). Along with the tang bolt, the little bolt holds the tang down tightly such that I can fit the hook to snap into it with a very firm fit without risking levering it up and out of its inlet. It really works well and allows the breech of the barrel to be very firmly held in the tang.
dave
Dave, This is interesting. Would you have a picture of that bottom bolt arrangement? I assume you are describing the same scenario as seen on wrist escutcheons. All the pieces I have or have seen had a cross pin going thru a small lug at the bottom of the standing breech.
I would of course also be interested in the particular makers whose work you found this system on and time period for my files.
James
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Hi James!
I don't have photos but I can tell you that one gun was a dueling pistol by James Innes of Edinburgh probably made around 1800. It was the very first dueling pistol I had the chance to really examine. It was half stocked with a heavy barrel. The other gun was a single barreled fowler converted to percussion. The barrel had Birmingham proofs but on top was engraved "London". Any makers name on the lock was obscured by corrosion. It was not a high-end piece but was well made and probably was made after 1813 because of the style of the proofs. My original mid-18th century fowler from Jim Kibler has the cross pin through the lug. Unfortunately the pin was removed and lost and the hole badly buggered by someone probably trying to remove the standing breech. I think a problem most of us encounter today is that very few of the commercially available hook breeches have the lug for the pin. The easier solution then is to insert the little screw from below. Take care James and thanks for looking.
dave
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Looking good, Dave! I too, would be interested in seeing the bolt arraignment you described. I've always secured the standing breach with a cross pin as James described, silver soldering a lug to the bottom if need be. Bolt sounds interesting....
Ed
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Hi James and Ed,
I will take some pictures of the gun today showing the bolt and post them for you. James, it occurred to me that one common feature of both guns that had the bolt arrangement was they did not have side plates, just decorative screw cups. Consequently, the hole for the lateral pin would be exposed unless it did not go all the way through the stock. That might be why the makers chose a different method. On my original fowler, the pin is hidden behind the side plate. After reading your note, I looked at my copies of Neal and Back's books on British gun makers to see if that pin shows up on guns without solid side plates hiding it. I was especially interested in several guns by William Bailes on which he used wire inlay instead of a side plate. I did not spy any pin that would hold the standing breech on the bottom. Bailes must have used a different method on those guns or did not use any lower anchor. Again, I'll get some pictures posted for you soon.
dave
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Thanks Dave!
My Heylin 1760's silver mounted gun's standing breech cross pin is hidden by the sideplate. My Elston gun which is a decade or so later has no sideplate, just nail washers and the pin is visible.
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Hi James and Ed,
Here are the photos I promised. The little bolt is installed under the guard and screws into the breech, holding down tightly. The forward lug for the guard fits neatly between the screw and trigger plate and the guard covers the screw hole.
dave
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2Fstanding%2520breech%25201_zpsniqfirzv.jpg&hash=425413fd9afa0b437813e9e704640043d7597b02)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2Fstanding%2520breech%25202_zpsqqmpi1iy.jpg&hash=db00a023d56fd3d10f5bea1a69564b6e24345ea3)
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You will find this screw used on some Hawken rifles.
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Sweet! Thanks, Dave!
Ed
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Louis: thanks for that comment! It certainly makes perfect sense.
On my Hawken pistol copy, I used a very highly figured piece of Claro walnut, and with the big .60 cal bore, I had issues with the stock cracking through the lock area. So I installed a screw like the one above through the trigger plate up into the standing breech, and have never had another issue. It completely removes any flex induced by recoil.
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Thanks for the photos Dave. It will be interesting to see if a gun earlier than last quarter 18th reveals this arrangement. They were certainly using the same means to secure the thumbpieces with the exception of going thru the trigger plate.
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Hi,
I had to put my English rifle aside for most of last month to build a long rifle for a friend and client. Anyway, got back to it this week and inlet the sideplate. Whew! Glad that is done. I am almost ready to carve and decorate it.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FEnglish%2520rifle%252012_zpskyk8xu7z.jpg&hash=508696c9857d924134c18d1ee9bc6f9920b2e78b)
I attached some photos of the long rifle too. I started it mid February. It is in the hands of the owner who is sanding and whiskering it. Then he will hand it back to me for carving and detailing. It will be a John Noll sort of thing.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FCook%2520Noll%2520rifle%25201_zpsg4fhzbs8.jpg&hash=ac26a8f389140d4df38a873daa22fc5fb7aae1c8)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FCook%2520Noll%2520rifle%25202_zpsp17uribb.jpg&hash=7b046dd2c92d609d0e4a484900e71a0bdda17495)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FCook%2520Noll%2520rifle%25203_zps8gch2m5a.jpg&hash=41fd982e71725a6f661c61ec85c10fe814b5d1a9)
dave
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Dave, that side plate would give me some grey hairs! (That's assuming I had any hair, of course.) Looks like you are making some good progress. Looking forward to seeing more as you move along.
Thanks for the pics.
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Dave always impressed with your workmanship. Yes I am one of your fans also. Will be following your build, all the way.
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Hey Dave, both pieces are looking great! Do you remember what trigger guard you used for the Noll rifle?....
Ed
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Thanks for looking folks,
Ed, it is a John Armstrong guard from TOW. It required quite a bit of bending and a little reshaping to get it looking more like guards used on Noll's rifles. I like it because it is one of the few guards with a nice graceful curve to the grip rail and a long grip rail.
dave
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Dave
The side plate on that English gun is just killer!!!!!!Sweet work!!!!!!!!!!!
Mitch
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Thanks, Dave! That is most helpful!.... Again, really nice work, and I agree with Mitch 100%. Thanks again!
Ed
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Hi,
I got a little carving done. I will finish the details later as I have to put this aside and carve a long rifle. My poor little English rifle is like an abused foster child. It always takes second place.
dave
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi518.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu344%2Fdavid_person%2FEnglish%2520rifle%252013_zps6p4mxqrj.jpg&hash=701c38c396c3224067789ffc2101a150bd5269ea)
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That's beautiful work.Ive been following youre builds for a awhile.Being a new comer to rifle building and trying to learn I have a question to ask.Are you going to carve a front moulding on youre lock plate and side plate? If not how to you terminate the carving under the side and lock plate panels to make them look right?
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Nicely done, Dave. I like that side plate more and more each time I see it.
Ed
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Dave,
Your “foster child” is very lucky. She will obviously end up at the upper end of the bell curve of existence, thanks to the exceptional (albeit leisurely) parenting she is receiving. She wears her silver broach stunningly. Didn’t you show us that jewelry in-the-making some time ago?
Admiringly, Bill Paton
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Thanks for commenting everyone,
Thimble Rig, the molding simply fades out as it approaches the front of the lock and sideplate panels. I am modeling that feature on an original English fowler that I own. It actually looks good. English makers often did not carve aprons completely around the lock panels. In addition the lock panels are not exactly the same on each side. One side is tailored to fit the lock shape and the other to fit the sideplate. Again, that is how the originals often were.
Bill, for various reasons I've posted pictures of the sideplate multiple times, ad nauseum perhaps. I made it several years ago and finally put it on a gun. I have to make a full sized and smaller scale copy of it for a fowler and horse pistol.
dave
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Thanks for info.I appericate it.I do love that side plate,But I sure wouldn't to try to inlet that.I would be a nervous wreck before it was done.
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Thanks for info.I appericate it.I do love that side plate,But I sure wouldn't to try to inlet that.I would be a nervous wreck before it was done.
Magic helps.
dave
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Can I have that gun when you're done? :P
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Mike, I am sensing a pattern here. If I give it to you, then I won't have one.
dave
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Great looking work, I love the tang carving. ;D
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Mike, I am sensing a pattern here. If I give it to you, then I won't have one.
dave
Well, if you don't give it to me then I won't have one....Catch 22. Maybe you better build two...... ;D
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Dave, that gun may be taking second place in the work schedule but there s nothing second rate about it. That carving looks wonderful. I know for me that often the the best work is done on the lower priority jobs because I don't have the deadline constraint, and I can really think about the details of how something is coming together. Well done.
Jim
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Thanks Jim,
That means a lot coming from you. By the way, Jim, the chain vises are working great. I find I use the leg vises twice as much as I did before and that is really good because for many tasks, they are the best vises on my bench. Previously, after a stock was rounded and no longer squared up. the leg vises were not convenient because shaped stocks vary so much in thickness. Now, that is not the case since the vises automatically adjust the parallel guides to the wood thickness. It is now very efficient to move my stocks to whatever vise is the best suited for the task. If someone did a time-lapse video of me, they would think I was doing laps around my bench as I move from vise to vise. As they say, "a man can't have too many vises". I have 4 on my bench, add a shot of scotch, and I have 5.
dave