AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: WYSharpshooter79 on September 21, 2017, 07:23:49 AM
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Howdy Folks,
New to the forum here. Before I go on, a little about myself.
Ive always enjoyed history mostly 1800s, anywhere from Lewis and Clark, through the civil war, to the end of 19th century. Used to go to rendezvous with my father when I was younger, shot a few rifles with him and enjoyed it. Havent shot one in while though since I started working and got married.
Never built a muzzleloader before, but I would like to take a shot at it. Im an HVAC mechanic, using tools and working with my hands is what Im used to doing. I have a lot to learn about woodworking, but that is something I am trying to learn also. My first project I would like to be a full stock hawken flint rifle in 54 cal. I dont want to rush through it, I want to take my time, learn, and do it right. This probably wont be the last project either.
My questions are what tools do you folks suggest getting just starting out, recommended books, videos, etc. Any advice is greatly appreciated and will be listened to. Thanks for the help and letting me join up here.
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OK, I'll answer. You might as well start off by getting yourself a Track of the Wolf catalogue. That will cost you 5 bucks. Then you can start saving for your lock, stock and barrel, etc. That will cost about $800. In the mean time, you need to read as many old posts on this forum that you can, from this page right on back to the beginning. Spend time in the virtual library, too. Unfortunately, a lot of old pictures are no longer there. Good luck.
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Welcome to the forum WYS79, I'm going to go ahead and be "that guy" again and remind you that we've fielded that question a few times and it's all right here in searchable format. I don't think the answers have changed much and everyone has to apply them to their own set of circumstances.
I'll say this. TOW is not the only supplier, but it's a great catalog to have a copy of-1:1 scale locks make it really handy for planning and layout.
Don't get more books/videos. Get less. Fret over learning exactly how the Hawken should look. I recommend seeing everything Herb (here) has made. He's out West too. There are other experts in that school, I aren't one.
Also note that PhotoBucket destroyed a lot of old posts around the world--or at least the photo content with their new rules. Now we can load pics directly to this forum. Also there are lots of other hosting sites.
Cheers I gotta run, enjoy and maybe you'll find a local even. Nothing like hands-on, eyes-on help from a real builder. WP
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Books are okay, videos are better, but the best bet is to team up with someone who knows how to build one. Learn to inlett, practice inletting, inlett as much stuff as possible: coins, pieces of metal in odd shapes, your neighbors cat....get good at inletting and a lot of your first build problems may be avoided. The best practice would be to find somebody who will show you a thing or two. Good luck.
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One of my pet peeves
There are lots of guys willing to help you on this forum
I notice that you don't care to share your name or what part of the world you live in
Why should I share my knowledge with someone that secretive?
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WY - Welcome aboard, Also, look through the forum, there are classes available that many of these builders offer, and it would launch you much further and faster to take one, get strong advice and hands on experience, then apply that to your project.
Jon
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Good to have you with us. It looks like you are traveling the same path I did when I got hooked on muzzle loading rifles in the mid 70's. Hawken rifles are great, but they are much more complicated to build than one first thinks. I would recommend you check Don Stith's web page to see the rifle component parts he has put together. He knows the characteristics of the Hawken rifle, and his parts are first rate. As mentioned earlier Herb has a bunch of photo's in his post of rifles he has built. If you live in Wyoming you probably have visited the Cody museum. If not, it is well worth the trip, they have a great display of Hawken rifles that you can look at in person. Also, the museum has a photo section on their web page that has reference photographs (multiple views) of each of the rifles they have at their location. However, if they haven't changed the way they have named the rifle, you might have to look under different subject name like plains rifle or Hawken rifle to see all of the info. It is well worth the effort to work through the issue to get the reference photo. Also, search the net for "Green River Rifle Works Collector's Association". They have a bunch of photographs of rifles that they put out in their quarterly news letter. They have a bunch of photo's of the Bridger Hawken that GRRW used to make their Bridger Hawken before they closed the door years ago. Good luck with your build.
Roger Sells
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Welcome to the forum. I don't build but my passion is for earlier flintlock longrifles. Good luck on your build; there's a lot of help available here.
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Thanks for the replies. Yes I do have a track of the wolf catalog, two of them actually, new and old one. I had noticed too that photobucket was missing pictures when I was reading back through older posts, was wondering why that was. Will continue previous posts as suggested. As far as the firearms museum in Cody, I live about 20 miles from it, we will be taking a field trip there with the homeschool group my kids are in. Nice thing about being that close is that we have year round access to it. The inlay practice I was wondering about, did you guys practice by inlaying locks, triggers, etc is regular pieces of wood? A guy I work with has taken a class in buildig before has offered to help also. I dont know if there are classes in the Cody Wyoming area. I will ask and find out. I figured my questions had been asked before but wanted to introduce myself a little since I just joined. Thanks for replying. Will continue to read and study as suggested.
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Welcome to the fire! There are a lot of talented Individuals on this board.
Most of which are willing to help a new Guy out. Good Luck on your build and keep us posted.
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Will keep everyone posted, thanks. Might be a little bit before I start on it. Need to practice the woodworking end of things and research and read. My father gave me an L&R Durs Egg lock I can practice inlaying with. Thanks.
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Yes,welcome,I am building a flint full stock hawken for a first build myself.Do your homework.Lots of things to get one of these rifles right,little details and many "suppliers"do not supply the right parts for this type of rifle.The folks here are a great help,they will help you along if you need it.Ask questions,post pics and they will get answered,there's some very talented folks who build quite a few hawken rifles.To add to that list I suggest you look up past posts by D.Taylor Sapergia,the man knows his hawken rifles as well.
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I started out with lots of metal working experience but very little in wood. The wood part really did not end up giving me any trouble. I think the most important thing is probably knowing how to use tools. You likely have the skill that you need and just lack the knowledge. Good thing is that knowledge is a lot easier to get than skill. Plenty of books out there and you learn pretty much anything from You Tube.
For tools you pretty much need a drill press and basic hand tools. Other than that is a set of good files and rasps. Also a set of chisels. Don't go cheap on these. Cheap tools will just make the work miserable. Spend some time learning how to sharpen chisels. They need to be sharp enough to shave with.
One of the big things I learned with my first rifle build is that there are no parts of it that are actually hard. But there are quite a few parts that take a really long time. Just let it take as long as it is going to take. But spend forever trying to figure everything out. At some point it seems to work out best to quit thinking and just do it. It usually starts to make sense somewhere along the way. Take your time. Getting in a hurry will just screw things up. No point in getting it done before you have enough money saved up for the next one anyway.
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One of my pet peeves
There are lots of guys willing to help you on this forum
I notice that you don't care to share your name or what part of the world you live in
Why should I share my knowledge with someone that secretive?
45 years ago every thing was so secretive in building and shooting ML,s and I made up my mind that if I could ever help anyone I would. Thanks to Cornell Kemper and a few others I was able to pull the grade. Most or all of you guys have a skill level far above mine however I have helped a few folks I did not know build and many to shoot. If I die today I.m taking no secrets with me as i have gave them all away.
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From a building perspective, a Hawken is about the worst choice for a first time builder. A pinned barrel Leman or 19th Century late Lancaster flint longrifle would be so much better for a new builder.
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From a building perspective, a Hawken is about the worst choice for a first time builder. A pinned barrel Leman or 19th Century late Lancaster flint longrifle would be so much better for a new builder.
A trade gun would be an even better first choice. As Fur Trade is of interest, I'd suggest a Northwest Trade Gun.
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OK, I'll answer. You might as well start off by getting yourself a Track of the Wolf catalogue. That will cost you 5 bucks. Then you can start saving for your lock, stock and barrel, etc. That will cost about $800. In the mean time, you need to read as many old posts on this forum that you can, from this page right on back to the beginning. Spend time in the virtual library, too. Unfortunately, a lot of old pictures are no longer there. Good luck.
The Track of the Wolf Catalog is $10, not $5. To the best of my knowledge there are no pictures of antique flint Hawken
rifles. There are plenty of full stock rifles with percussion Hawken hardware and they are good looking but not authentic.
There is also no reason NOT to make one if you want to.The Track catalog has full size pictures that can be measured and makes the job a lot more pleasant.
Welcome to this forum.You're among friends.
Bob Roller
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Thanks for all the replies. Been reading a lot on this forum and learned a few things already. Will keep you folks posted.
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From a building perspective, a Hawken is about the worst choice for a first time builder. A pinned barrel Leman or 19th Century late Lancaster flint longrifle would be so much better for a new builder.
A trade gun would be an even better first choice. As Fur Trade is of interest, I'd suggest a Northwest Trade Gun.
Well, the other rifle I was considering was the Early Tennessee rifle in 54 cal as shown in the track of the wolf catalog. Are you folks thinking this might be the better choice? I already have have a Durs Egg flint lock too.
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I never practiced inlaying anything.
I'd not build a Hawken for a first rifle. (I did but it ended up a Hawkins instead :o) I'd not build anything iron mounted or with a deeply crescent buttplate. Nice brass flat buttplates are easiest to inlet. In fact a "poorboy" would be the best as you'll be out shooting it about 6 months earlier.
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One of my pet peeves
There are lots of guys willing to help you on this forum
I notice that you don't care to share your name or what part of the world you live in
Why should I share my knowledge with someone that secretive?
One of my peeves as well. I always have trouble remembering who is actually who. :P
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So secretive,perhaps he's al queda,just got done being thawed out and doesn't know what century he's in,LOL.Some folks just aren't comfortable putting all their personal information out there.WHSharpshooted,jump in the deep end and build the rifle you want to build,do the home work, acquire the right parts,take your time,ask the right questions and enjoy the ride.I'm far from one to give advise but that's the path I chose and have no regrets other than not getting a butt plate with a longer heel,LOL,don't sweat the small stuff ;)
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Whsharpshooter Welcome to the ALR.
When picking out what you want to build. Try o find an actual gun that you can put in your hands to study.
Getting the right parts for the gun is the EASY part. Getting the lines of the gun or architecture is another thing.
Unless you have a mentor to help you. Keep your first build simple.
If you do want to practice inletting use the wood type that you are going to build your gun with. Cherry,maple or walnut. They all have there characteristics.
Also learn to sharpen your chisels.
Last but not least learn Patience. Without it building does not go well. Oldtravler. aka another Mike without the B
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While you are reading the old threads, keep a set of notes, a week or month from now you will need that info and want to refresh it But with no set of notes, you will have to look for it again. Electronic notes saved on a computer are easy, simple copy and paste to document form using Microsoft Works or Open Office.
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So secretive,perhaps he's al queda,just got done being thawed out and doesn't know what century he's in,LOL.Some folks just aren't comfortable putting all their personal information out there.WHSharpshooted,jump in the deep end and build the rifle you want to build,do the home work, acquire the right parts,take your time,ask the right questions and enjoy the ride.I'm far from one to give advise but that's the path I chose and have no regrets other than not getting a butt plate with a longer heel,LOL,don't sweat the small stuff ;)
I know who you are and sit outside your house and spy on you every night with my binoculars....... :-X
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WYS, I agree that although a Hawken looks relatively simple but they definitely aren't. A Southern Mountain is easier, as long as you avoid the dreaded lollipop tang.
My first scratch built gun was a trade gun made from a 30" long shotgun barrel. It didn't turn out so bad that I was ashamed to take it to shoots, but definitely showed that it wasn't made by a professional builder. Because I built all the furniture, I learned much more than I would have if I'd bought all the parts.
Hungry Horse
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So secretive,perhaps he's al queda,just got done being thawed out and doesn't know what century he's in,LOL.Some folks just aren't comfortable putting all their personal information out there.WHSharpshooted,jump in the deep end and build the rifle you want to build,do the home work, acquire the right parts,take your time,ask the right questions and enjoy the ride.I'm far from one to give advise but that's the path I chose and have no regrets other than not getting a butt plate with a longer heel,LOL,don't sweat the small stuff ;)
Don'tknow which JoeS you are If you are the one building a Hawken fullstock,for the past year; You might remember I invited you to my house to study my original full stock Hawken. It doesn't live here anymore. How is that for overly secretive. I just like to know who I am dealing with and actually love helping people get started in this hobby
Don
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Don,Mike lighten up a little,just funnin with all that who's who stuff.Handles been around since the CB radio days.Don I always thanked you for that invite and still regret not being able to take you up on it.As I said some folks are just more concerned about their names,ect .on these darn sites than others.Somebody wants to know more about me I'm always willing via PM or E-mail.I have done this with a couple folks on this site that helped me out,they didn't know me from Adam,that's what's great about folks here.I didn't mean to offend you,you want to shut the door on me I'm cool with that.Anybody can make up a name,addy ect.Its no way to "know who your dealing with"over the internet anyway.
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With all the suggestions given here, I will look at both rifles and figure this out. I have to say the southern "poor boy" rifles tend to fit in more with my lifestyle that I live now, meaning my family and I try to be as self reliant as possible not only because of wanting to, but also we have to for financial reasons. I can see myself relating to the types of people that used them. But I also like the early Hawkens too. I will research both as Im not going to rush it and mess things up. Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
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One of my pet peeves
There are lots of guys willing to help you on this forum
I notice that you don't care to share your name or what part of the world you live in
Why should I share my knowledge with someone that secretive?
One of my peeves as well. I always have trouble remembering who is actually who. :P
With all due respect to you gentlemen, if my profile bothers you that much, nobody is forcing you to answer my questions and help. I used to be on a few other forums a while back, dont get on them as much as I used to as there always seems to be a few people that think them sitting behind a keyboard makes it ok for them to mouth off and throw insults. I am all about getting things done, I dont have time for trivial and petty internet subculture arguments. That is all I am going to say about this and I will not discuss it any further. Moderators if you need to ban me for this, there is nothing I can do, so be it.
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I have built a Hawken or 2 and traveled to The Museum of the Fur Trade,Cody Buffalo Bill, J.M. Davis,( Art Russull , years ago) and my question is to a beginner how do you describe a proper Hawken? I have saw tapered barrels, straight ones of various calibers and length,s. Several different lock designs, different trigger guards and I think mostly Maple wood and possibly some Walnut . Most if not all had a hook breech, of several different designs. All were cap lock with one lock bolt. Easy to build, NO.
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Mike you can spy on me. I got to have something to do with my thermal imaging sight...! ROTFL....Oldtravler
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Wait a minute there he's my stalker :o
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Wyoming just remember there are a lot of us that will gladly help.
As for some, well it's there call. But I could careless what your real name is. I'm just trying to keep this sight going.
We need new member's. Thus discouraging them is not a plus in anyone's book.
Most are willing to give advice to help. The fact of the matter is you want help in fixing your gun. You are not asking personnel info about anyone on here.
Also when you sign on to the ALR you have the choice of your real name or a Nick name.
So if you got any questions ask me if you want. For all the mistakes I've done I could write a book on fixing thing's.
So hang in there...! Oldtravler or Mike without the B
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Okay. I'll admit I am a dinosaur. Just like to know who I am communicating with.
Handles in the CBdays was kind of funny. I just don't see the need to be secretive on a board like this with people that share common interests
Nuff Said
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As far as the profile stuff, this,community is rather small and close knit. If you stick with this and really get into the building or collecting aspect you'll see that and understand that better. I agree with you that the comments could have been phrased.....differently, more tactfully.
As far as the Track "kits"....
The Hawken and Early Tennessee are what I consider two of their priemuim parts sets. A lot of the difficulty with the long tang Hawken and Tennessee has been done with these sets. The Hawken will still have all the Hawken Quirks with the metal fit....I.E. the triggerguard and such as that.
For a first time builder if using Track sets their best IMHO is the 44 inch barreled JP Beck kit. The 38" barrel Haines is good as well.
Built plain with care the Beck makes a nice rifle.
With this said, there are quirks about parts sets like these.
For example...
Let's say you are in letting the side plate. The pre inlet is real close on one side and say a 16th on the top side. Super care has to be done not to screw this up. We are talking about removing oh so slight slivers from one side and a little more on the other side. Honestly it would be better if there was no pre inlet at all in some cases. Although it's 90 % inlet....that means they left you the hardest 10 percent. Since the inlet is almost.....that makes it harder. In this aspect a blank build is easier.
Now as far as Lay Out and where stuff goes....the parts sets are easier for a new builder.
Honestly building from a set requires a little different skill set than building from a blank. Parts set tend to be more tedious.
Another thing that is more tedious is drilling pins. It takes more care pin a stock in the round vs in the square.
I recommend 2 books for you.....Recreating the American Longrifle...( a good simple guide if you buy one buy this one) and The Gunsmith of Grenville County. In Grenville County Alexander tries to go into great detail about things that are reall hard to explain. So you have to read through it several times. If you cross reference both books as companions.....you will get it.
Keep in mind both of these books are about building from a blank. Building from a pre inlet parts set is a little different and the assembly will be different.
Do some research. This is a great investment.
I must mention the Jim Chambers parts sets. These go together really well. The parts work out with No surprises.
If you want something that is a real kit and goes together as easy or easier than A Traditions Kentucky...consider the Jim Kibler rifle. The Kibler was designed for a first timer to have a great rifle.
Other options.....a pre shaped stock with the barrel inlet but in the square from the rear of the lock panel forward. This is in between a blank and a kit or parts sets....there are hundreds of stocks to choose from.....
Knob Mountain
Gillespie Rifle Works
Track
And many others...
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If there is anyone on this site that is green as grass as far as gun building it is me. For my first gun I am going to build a full stock hawken as well. It will be a 54 caliber, however, it will be a percussion gun. I have done tons of studying and reading on the Hawken. One of my favorite articles I found here: http://whitemuzzleloading.com/docs-ramblings . However, this is for the half stock. But it will lay out a lot of information for you on a traditional hawken in a short article.
There are several reasons that I chose the full stock, but one of the main reasons is the weight is reduced over the half stocks that I have researched. I have studied many original hawkens on the web. So many folks talk about authenticity, but in my research, these guns were built in a lot of different ways with many different characteristics. I personally feel that first and foremost the Hawken's were running a business. They appear to have used several different butt plates, trigger guards, barrels and locks. I think they used what was available to them on the market at the time. They may have built a lot of the parts in the beginning, but went to buying some parts that were pre-made (from where ever they found them).
Many of the full stock hawkens had stocks made of straight grained maple and cheek pieces were all flat. That is the way that they have been characterized to most of us moderns (as Doc puts it). But I recently came across an original full stock that was made of walnut and had the beaver tail cheek piece. The trigger guard was in the most common scroll style and the loop at the end was almost a perfect round shape like I have seen on the pre 1840 full stocks. It sold at auction for over $48,500.00. Personally, I don't know if it was original, but I would think that someone paying that kind of price for it must have done their homework.
To me that gun was really actractive. So my gun will be made of American black walnut and have the beaver tail cheek piece as well. What I am trying to decide on now is what type of barrel to use. In my readings I have learned that there were straight, tapered and "slightly" swamped barrels used on the hawkens. Straight barrels tend to be muzzle heavy, and the tappered barrels were really not that tapered. For example, the original Bridger hawken was 52 cal. The taper on the barrel was 1.175 at the breech and 1.125 at the muzzle. Carl Walker of GRRW said that kind of taper could be done with a file. Plus, I have read where tapered barrels (if too tapered) can make the muzzle too light and may wave around making it hard to hold on target. So since some had swamped barrels, then why not use one? The gun would be much better ballanced and would remove even more weight. Plus the flared end might be just enough weight to stop the waving.
One other thing that really drives me nuts is getting the lock inletted properly. I have seen tons of of hammers on original and temprorary guns bent over to fit the nipple. So it appears that even the Hawkens had trouble getting "lock geometry" figured out. Many of the full stocks that I have seen seem to line up much better. GRRW even said that the lock plate on the Bridger rifle was "bent" to fit the lock panel. Plus I get to learn how to make a ram rod channel inlet for future long rifles that I would like to build.
Like I said.... I am definitely not an expert at any of this. But I have done my reading and study on these guns. And I feel that you could use quite a few options and still be fairly historically correct. Just my opinion.
Jeff
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Jeff;
I would not tackle a Hawken for my first build. They are deceptively hard to pull off even by experienced builders. The long bar triggers, and the long tang patent breech, are just a couple of places a new builder can go astray. Also, good Hawken parts are not cheap, and are easy to ruin with a little inexperienced filing, or grinding. Something with a full stock, fixed breech, simple trigger, would be the easiest for a novice to pull off while getting some valuable experience. JMO.
Hungry Horse
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Hungry Horse,
I appreciate your concerns (which have been echoed by others as well). I understand that building this gun may be a challenge. But, I want to learn how to build this style of gun. From what I have seen, none of these guns are cheap to build. In my eyes, it is all expensive.
TOW lays out 3 problems with building the half stock:
1. Drilling the blind holes for the under rib. There isn't one on the full stock.
2. Soldering the ram rod thimbles. I don't have to mess with that because they will be pinned on the full stock like most other long rifles.
3. Lock inletting. Getting the geometry right. This does bother me. But I figure I will have to learn sometime. I plan on making more of this type of gun. Might as well get at it (plus I hopefully have you guys to lean on for help). :)
I have the plans for the Kit Carson hawken. I will use that as a guide to help with getting the breech, triggers, and tang in. I figure if I can inlet a 2 inch tang, then I can inlet one that is longer. I am concerned about having to bend the tang to fit the curve of the stock. But I saw Herbs article on that and I feel I can follow his advice on how to fix that if needed. The triggers will have to be double set. That is just my preference. Any single trigger that I have shot just seem hard to pull. I know they can be adjusted and modified, but I really don't want to get into that type of thing just yet.
Jeff
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WyS, Good luck with your hawken build. There is a prevailing theme to many of the responses: Copy An Original. I've only seen a few, and only held one original Hawken rifle. Each was different. Similar to be sure, but different nonetheless. I plan to make three more 'hawken' rifles for my grandsons. I plan to purchase a couple of more sets of plans, purchase the parts I can't imagine building, buy a trigger kit to use as a guide and even make a few tools. I plan to build a good shooter that fits each young man made with strength and grace. These rifles might not be copies of ANY original but they will have been inspired by the renowned Hawken. I plan to do my best, have my grandsons help, and learn something new while enjoying the task. Have fun and good luck. P.S. if you are sincere, the curators at the museum in Cody might just let you too into the basement vault.