I was dismayed ...
People are trendy...
I guess ordinary men always feel the need to belong to something. Where are those who think outside the box and go their own way without being part of the pack?
..
This could be real hard on the fellas that are offering finished guns for $800 with poor wood, hinkey architecture, low end small parts and tubing barrels.
We can bloviate all we want, but the reality of the situation is that a large percentage of us will not be around in the next 10 or 15 years to see any effects, if any.
I've been wondering about this myself, and watching the kits hit the market with mixed feelings. Couple of thoughts:Do you shoot with the French Broad Rifles? If so we may have run into each other.
1) I hope they will increase the appreciation among the muzzleloading community for good, historically correct architecture. There are a lot of folks out there, folks that are primarily shooters and hunters instead of builders and scholars of antiques, that only have a vague idea of what really good architecture looks like. I think that Mr. Kibler's kits are going to edge out a lot of the "Semi-custom" market that caters to that particular demographic group, which may have the long-term effect of encouraging certain other manufacturers to improve their product. Maybe.
2) Back when I was a teenager I got interested in building rifles not because I desired by be a gunsmith, but because I wanted a good replica of a Kentucky rifle so I could shoot it. There just wasn't anything even remotely resembling a longrifle available that was within my price range - even the Pedersoli and Hatfield rifles were too expensive and only marginally long enough to count as a "longrifle" for me. Now, while Kibler's kits are not inexpensive, they are apparently exceedingly easy to put together and use very high quality components, which is going to make them a very attractive proposition for someone in the position I was as a teenager (particularly if that someone has a rather more realistic appreciation of how difficult it is to build a decent gun than I did at the time), and thereby reduce what has historically been a big motivator for beginning builders. Whether this will have the effect of reducing the number of people willing to start building their own from scratch or not, I can't say - it is possible that having an easy introduction to building and a good model for subsequent builds will encourage more folks to strike out on their own.
3) The exact impact on custom makers will probably depend a lot on what models Kibler (or others following his lead) introduce. Right now Jim has two rather different kinds of guns - one is a fairly faithful reproduction of a specific NC rifle (albeit in flint instead of percussion), and the other is a very generic "colonial" rifle. At the risk of offending, I have to say that to me at least the Kibler Colonial looks more like a Kibler then any particular original colonial rifle - with that English lock I think it might end up being the brass-mounted variant of the "Early Southern Rifle" that has become so ubiquitous, as it doesn't really look like a PA rifle at all. While I imagine that right now Jim and Katherine are thinking about new models with an eye towards areas that aren't covered by other kits, I predict that eventually CNC kits will end up covering most of the most common rifles - Reading, Lancaster, Lehigh, Christian's Spring/Moravian, Early Southern, Fur Trade rifle, Classic Hawken, Jaeger, Southern Mountain, etc., while the custom makers supply the demand for copies of specific rifles, individual makers, or just more obscure schools. What I hope doesn't happen is that a couple interesting-but-offbeat originals get used as a basis for kits at the expense of more typical examples, the way that the Edward Marshall and Faber rifles have become copied ad nauseum.
I don't think that custom gunmaking is going to go away anytime soon - one of the drawbacks to very precisely machined kits with no wood left to remove is that they aren't going to be easy to kit-bash or customize. Only real options so far are patchbox, decoration, and wood type. While I'm sure that someone, a very skilled and clever someone, will eventually come around and prove that yes, you can make the Kibler Colonial into a stepped-wrist rifle, if you can pull that you can build from a blank and probably accomplish teh same result more easily. I think that is an inherent limitation with kits - the more freedom you have to do your own thing the greater the risk of failure, and the easier a kit is to build the less easy it is to alter.
4) Long term, the market may not be as saturated as some believe. Speaking as one of the much- (and often deservedly) criticized millennial generation, I'd like to observe that there is a very deep-seated dissatisfaction and frustration with the modern world as currently constituted among many younger folks, particularly men. I don't want to get into details of that here, but I do think that there is a lot of interest in self-sufficiency - survivalism, under the name "prepping," has become mainstream if y'all haven't noticed, and here inHippyvilleAsheville the Foxfire books are a perennial seller at the local bookstores - and a bit of nostalgia for a time of simpler certainties - I note that the Art of Manliness website is doing pretty well. Some of that is likely to translate into an interest in muzzlelaoders. What we younger guys often do not have is a lot of money, space, time, and/or a background in tool use. A rifle that can be assembled with basic tools in an apartment kitchen and is affordable to someone working two part-time service jobs might be just what this hobby needs to survive for another generation.
Overall, I think that the advent of CNC kits is likely to be a positive development. Making good guns cheaper and easier to acquire strikes me as an undeniable Good Thing. I have to admit that I'm inclined to be grumpy about it, partially out of snobbery (I may be the only person in the world that doesn't particularly care for the Colonial and I'm not thrilled by the idea of seeing them everywhere) and personal loyalty (Jim Chambers coached me through my first gun and Barbie's daughter attends the school at which my father teaches, so really don't want to see their business suffer), but objectively those aren't good reasons to dislike the new kits.
Wow! I guess we must be doing someting right with this sort of reaction ;) I don't really even know where to start. There have been a lot of excellent points raised for sure. I agree with many and take issue with a few.
First, we don't wish any ill will on any other businesses. All we're trying to do is make the best possible products we can and run the best business we can. We simply want to suceed. We'll not apalogize for that.
Although our kits rely on CNC equipnment, there is a whole lot more than this to create a quality product. I suspect few realize the extent of this. The sucess we've had is a result of our our abilities, ambition and hard work. We've put more time and energy into this business than most would believe.
I'm going to be blunt. The quality of most muzzleloading components has been abysmal in my view. Granted this comes from someone with a high end custom gunmaking background. Many of these parts, kits etc. are made by those who don't have the ability to make a high quality historically correct rifle themselves. How can this work? I think we've seen how it works...
How often have beginners been basically sold a pile of junk and are then expected to make something quality out of it. Quality issues that an experienced builder has difficulty dealing with. This has been the norm in this industry. How do you think this encourges those getting started?
We wanted to do things differently. We're proud that we've developed ways to make the finest kits available. The finest from design, historical correctness to construction and completeness.
The future? I can only speak to our goals. We will keep adding to our offerings while continually improving quality of our current products. They are very good, but can be better. All this, while improving the many other aspects of our business.
Progress is inevitable. Nostalgia creeps in at times but in the big picture it never wins.
All the best,
Jim
Well said T*O*F
QuoteWe can bloviate all we want, but the reality of the situation is that a large percentage of us will not be around in the next 10 or 15 years to see any effects, if any.
Well that's a little breath of sunshine.... ???
... : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" ...
This will be my last comment on this. About the use of CNC machines. Does anyone realise that back in the day. Pick which century you want that they the craftsmen didn't move towards faster an better tools for doing there work?
How many custom builders send there barrels an stocks out to have there ram rod an barrel channels done by modern means? If they had it they would have used it. It saved them time. Which made them more money.
What I have noticed over the years. Good bad or otherwise. The easier something is with good quality you draw more interest. Jim's products have done just that. By the way that's Jim Chambers too..!
There both two great bussiness people who stand behind their products. Oldtravler
I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream! They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands! I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" . In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.
Yeah, I guess if you want to get technical about it , in order to say you "built" it , it should have been "built" from balsa . What you actually did was "assemble " a kit. Same as these guns!I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream! They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands! I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" . In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.
When I was a kid, I was very much involved in building plastic scale model aircraft. I was pretty good at building historically correct examples. My best one was 1/72nd scale model of my dad's B-24, right down to the exact markings and serial number as well as added detail. Most of the markings had to be hand painted. It didn't look anything like the picture on the box, but in the end, it was still built from a kit. To qualify as "built" should I have carved it out of balsa? I think Jim's kits will inspire a new enthusiast to try using the skills gained with his kit to try something else, perhaps a Chambers, for his next rifle. That's opposed to getting in over your head with a precarve as your first build, screwing it up and and calling it quits. That's surely not good for the industry. I thought I new a thing or two after building a TC Hawken kit and a Dixie Tenn.Mtn Rifle more than 35 years ago. Then I moved up to a swamped Issac Haines precarve with Bivens hardware. I found out what I was in for when I discovered that the not very soft bronze butt plate was 1/4'' out of square. Then came the dreaded touch hole/pan location problem. In today's dollars, that rifle would cost almost as much as Jim's. It would have been trashed if not for some help from Chuck Dixon and Dave Motto. Full disclosure. I just finished Jim's extra fancy maple SMR and I loved every minute of the experience.
I'll admit that I'm not the fastest worker ... I am picky about that stuff.
Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit? 😀😀😀Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.
Attitudes like this will surely increase folks interest in long rifles (NOT) jeez think what you are sayin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yeah, I guess if you want to get technical about it , in order to say you "built" it , it should have been "built" from balsa . What you actually did was "assemble " a kit. Same as these guns!I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream! They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands! I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" . In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.
When I was a kid, I was very much involved in building plastic scale model aircraft. I was pretty good at building historically correct examples. My best one was 1/72nd scale model of my dad's B-24, right down to the exact markings and serial number as well as added detail. Most of the markings had to be hand painted. It didn't look anything like the picture on the box, but in the end, it was still built from a kit. To qualify as "built" should I have carved it out of balsa? I think Jim's kits will inspire a new enthusiast to try using the skills gained with his kit to try something else, perhaps a Chambers, for his next rifle. That's opposed to getting in over your head with a precarve as your first build, screwing it up and and calling it quits. That's surely not good for the industry. I thought I new a thing or two after building a TC Hawken kit and a Dixie Tenn.Mtn Rifle more than 35 years ago. Then I moved up to a swamped Issac Haines precarve with Bivens hardware. I found out what I was in for when I discovered that the not very soft bronze butt plate was 1/4'' out of square. Then came the dreaded touch hole/pan location problem. In today's dollars, that rifle would cost almost as much as Jim's. It would have been trashed if not for some help from Chuck Dixon and Dave Motto. Full disclosure. I just finished Jim's extra fancy maple SMR and I loved every minute of the experience.
Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit?Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.
It`s not about "think what your saying". If your assembling a kit , your assembling a kit period! If I go to Lowes , and buy a playhouse , and put it together for my niece , I didn't "build " her a playhouse I assembled it . That doesn't mean it isn't a good playhouse , I just didn't "build it. If this a difficult concept to grasp , then maybe a kit is your best choice?Attitudes like this will surely increase folks interest in long rifles (NOT) jeez think what you are sayin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yeah, I guess if you want to get technical about it , in order to say you "built" it , it should have been "built" from balsa . What you actually did was "assemble " a kit. Same as these guns!I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream! They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands! I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" . In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.
When I was a kid, I was very much involved in building plastic scale model aircraft. I was pretty good at building historically correct examples. My best one was 1/72nd scale model of my dad's B-24, right down to the exact markings and serial number as well as added detail. Most of the markings had to be hand painted. It didn't look anything like the picture on the box, but in the end, it was still built from a kit. To qualify as "built" should I have carved it out of balsa? I think Jim's kits will inspire a new enthusiast to try using the skills gained with his kit to try something else, perhaps a Chambers, for his next rifle. That's opposed to getting in over your head with a precarve as your first build, screwing it up and and calling it quits. That's surely not good for the industry. I thought I new a thing or two after building a TC Hawken kit and a Dixie Tenn.Mtn Rifle more than 35 years ago. Then I moved up to a swamped Issac Haines precarve with Bivens hardware. I found out what I was in for when I discovered that the not very soft bronze butt plate was 1/4'' out of square. Then came the dreaded touch hole/pan location problem. In today's dollars, that rifle would cost almost as much as Jim's. It would have been trashed if not for some help from Chuck Dixon and Dave Motto. Full disclosure. I just finished Jim's extra fancy maple SMR and I loved every minute of the experience.
Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit? 😀😀😀Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.
You just said it yourself "I`ll take the big EASY button". Well that is good for you! Don`t get butt hurt because others choose to actually do some work! Contrary to the way it`s been going lately , this site is supposed to be about gun "building" , not about assembling reproductions. While we`re on the subject of these kits. How did it work out for all these folks who were going to buy these kits , put them together , finish them and sell them for a profit? Seems like there is always some of them for sale , and it doesn't look like there is a lot of mark up. Along comes the newest offering , and LOW! , it can be "customized" ! When some one that doesn't have the skill to build a gun , takes one of these "colonial" kits , with it`s beautiful architecture and super tight inlets , and carves it . It will look like a Master gunsmith built it , and his 5 year old daughter carved it!! Talk about taking a $1000 worth of parts and, building a $500 gun. I agree with Greg , I`ve never seen a group that claims to have interest in an historical item, jump ship , for the "latest , greatest" . I guess in the long run not offending their "heroes" is a little more important , than trying to continue , to "teach" people about "building" guns. Whatever!!Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit? 😀😀😀Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.
But why not try? What are you saying? I, for one, have no interest in building a gun from scratch, I want a quality gun that I can shoot. By your reasoning only people who can build a rifle from scratch should own one. I guess my next obvious question would be do you fabricate every part on the guns you build? To go further, I suppose you own a car, did you build it yourself? The device you made this post with, did you build it yourself?
Perhaps your view goes along with what I have heard here before, countless comments about people asking about certain guns followed by comments such as "don't buy it, it's a pile of $#@*" or "they call it a Hawken, but it lack of proper arcitecture says otherwise" etc. Now along comes someone who is offering a high quality kit with the proper arcitecture and at a competitive price but because "it's too easy to assemble" and you don't have to spend months building it that makes it bad? I also see you are starting your next "kit", are you splitting hairs by saying it's ok to assemble one kit but not another because of how it's made?
As for me, I will take the "big easy button" as you call it, and I will not fell negative about buying a CNC kit! Thanks Jim Kibler for bringing a kit to market for us "mere mortals", I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it.
I guess the attitude displayed here is why it's better for a newbie such as myself to remain a lurker instead of a poster. To each their own!
Just finishing up my Jim Kibler SMR (KIT) and it"s a beauty /Thanks Jim /EdIt`s not about "think what your saying". If your assembling a kit , your assembling a kit period! If I go to Lowes , and buy a playhouse , and put it together for my niece , I didn't "build " her a playhouse I assembled it . That doesn't mean it isn't a good playhouse , I just didn't "build it. If this a difficult concept to grasp , then maybe a kit is your best choice?Attitudes like this will surely increase folks interest in long rifles (NOT) jeez think what you are sayin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yeah, I guess if you want to get technical about it , in order to say you "built" it , it should have been "built" from balsa . What you actually did was "assemble " a kit. Same as these guns!I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream! They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands! I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" . In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.
When I was a kid, I was very much involved in building plastic scale model aircraft. I was pretty good at building historically correct examples. My best one was 1/72nd scale model of my dad's B-24, right down to the exact markings and serial number as well as added detail. Most of the markings had to be hand painted. It didn't look anything like the picture on the box, but in the end, it was still built from a kit. To qualify as "built" should I have carved it out of balsa? I think Jim's kits will inspire a new enthusiast to try using the skills gained with his kit to try something else, perhaps a Chambers, for his next rifle. That's opposed to getting in over your head with a precarve as your first build, screwing it up and and calling it quits. That's surely not good for the industry. I thought I new a thing or two after building a TC Hawken kit and a Dixie Tenn.Mtn Rifle more than 35 years ago. Then I moved up to a swamped Issac Haines precarve with Bivens hardware. I found out what I was in for when I discovered that the not very soft bronze butt plate was 1/4'' out of square. Then came the dreaded touch hole/pan location problem. In today's dollars, that rifle would cost almost as much as Jim's. It would have been trashed if not for some help from Chuck Dixon and Dave Motto. Full disclosure. I just finished Jim's extra fancy maple SMR and I loved every minute of the experience.
You just said it yourself "I`ll take the big EASY button". Well that is good for you! Don`t get butt hurt because others choose to actually do some work! Contrary to the way it`s been going lately , this site is supposed to be about gun "building" , not about assembling reproductions. While we`re on the subject of these kits. How did it work out for all these folks who were going to buy these kits , put them together , finish them and sell them for a profit? Seems like there is always some of them for sale , and it doesn't look like there is a lot of mark up. Along comes the newest offering , and LOW! , it can be "customized" ! When some one that doesn't have the skill to build a gun , takes one of these "colonial" kits , with it`s beautiful architecture and super tight inlets , and carves it . It will look like a Master gunsmith built it , and his 5 year old daughter carved it!! Talk about taking a $1000 worth of parts and, building a $500 gun. I agree with Greg , I`ve never seen a group that claims to have interest in an historical item, jump ship , for the "latest , greatest" . I guess in the long run not offending their "heroes" is a little more important , than trying to continue , to "teach" people about "building" guns. Whatever!!Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit? 😀😀😀Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.
But why not try? What are you saying? I, for one, have no interest in building a gun from scratch, I want a quality gun that I can shoot. By your reasoning only people who can build a rifle from scratch should own one. I guess my next obvious question would be do you fabricate every part on the guns you build? To go further, I suppose you own a car, did you build it yourself? The device you made this post with, did you build it yourself?
Perhaps your view goes along with what I have heard here before, countless comments about people asking about certain guns followed by comments such as "don't buy it, it's a pile of $#@*" or "they call it a Hawken, but it lack of proper arcitecture says otherwise" etc. Now along comes someone who is offering a high quality kit with the proper arcitecture and at a competitive price but because "it's too easy to assemble" and you don't have to spend months building it that makes it bad? I also see you are starting your next "kit", are you splitting hairs by saying it's ok to assemble one kit but not another because of how it's made?
As for me, I will take the "big easy button" as you call it, and I will not fell negative about buying a CNC kit! Thanks Jim Kibler for bringing a kit to market for us "mere mortals", I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it.
I guess the attitude displayed here is why it's better for a newbie such as myself to remain a lurker instead of a poster. To each their own!
Wow again! I think it would be good if we just calm down a little. No need to get so worked up... These kits might be for some and not for others. Nothing wrong with this. Remember we're all a pretty small community with generally like minded views and interests. Being inclusive is a good thing. In my view, there's room for everyone here.
All the best,
Jim
Wow again! I think it would be good if we just calm down a little. No need to get so worked up... These kits might be for some and not for others. Nothing wrong with this. Remember we're all a pretty small community with generally like minded views and interests. Being inclusive is a good thing. In my view, there's room for everyone here.
All the best,
Jim
After much deliberation, I've made a decision. I'm going to offer a "good ole days" line of kits. These shouldn't be too hard to make. Just change some numbers in my programs, stock the shop fridge with beer and approach this with a little more relaxed and layed back attitude. Figure this way I can please everyone ;)
Seriously, thanks to all that have shared their opinions!
All the best,
Jim
Who would have ever thought that there would be so much contention and venom exhibited between a kit that's 90% completed compared to one that is 99% completed! Keep cranking them out Jim, from the wait time listed on your website it doesn't look like you are having any problem selling your kits! As the old saying goes "success sells".Who`s gonna be second in line? :-*