Long term effects of CNCed kits?

[n stephenson]

I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators  copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to  "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream!  They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands!  I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" .  In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.

When I was a kid, I was very much involved in building plastic scale model aircraft. I was pretty good at building historically correct examples. My best one was 1/72nd scale model of my dad's B-24, right down to the exact markings and serial number as well as added detail. Most of the markings had to be hand painted. It didn't look anything like the picture on the box, but in the end, it was still built from a kit. To qualify as "built" should I have carved it out of balsa? I think Jim's kits will inspire a new enthusiast to try using the skills gained with his kit to try something else, perhaps a Chambers, for his next rifle.  That's opposed to getting in over your head with a precarve as your first build, screwing it up and and calling it quits. That's surely not good for the industry. I thought I new a thing or two after building a TC Hawken kit and a Dixie Tenn.Mtn Rifle more than 35 years ago. Then I moved up to a swamped Issac Haines precarve with Bivens hardware. I found out what I was in for when I discovered that the not very soft bronze butt plate was 1/4'' out of square. Then came the dreaded touch hole/pan location problem. In today's dollars, that rifle would cost almost as much as Jim's. It would have been trashed if not for some help from Chuck Dixon and Dave Motto. Full disclosure. I just finished Jim's extra fancy maple  SMR and I loved every minute of the experience.

Yeah, I guess if you want to get technical about it , in order to say you "built" it ,  it should have been "built" from balsa . What you actually did was "assemble " a kit. Same as these guns!

[Acer Saccharum]

CNC kits fill a niche market that has never been filled before.

Certainly some kit suppliers will be affected, but I must pose the question, "how many kits have been sold that now sit in the closet because the buyer didn't know what he/she was getting into?". That kind of business is not repeat business, but a disappointed customer.

Is a kit gun going to teach the builder anything? Yes, of course. If the builder hankers for something outside the CNC kit offerings, he will enter the world of 'tools and skills required'. But he has this CNC kit to refer to for excellent stock architecture, how the screws are positioned, how the lock relates to the barrel, and so much more.

Certainly the demand for the CNC kit has proven that there is a market. I say it gets MORE people into the longrifle than previously thought possible. Kudos there.

Tom

[L Meadows]

Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit? 😀😀😀

[conquerordie]

I think this is a great conversation we are having.  As to the assembling of this kit, if you watch Jim's videos, you really are not going to learn a whole heck of a lot pertaining to building or stocking a muzzleloader. It's all done for you. You can literally say this kit is 99% finished. As I mentioned in my other posts, I think these kits are incredible, but it will effect positively and negatively certain people within this community. That's life!
My beef is that we try to step back in time and learn forgotten skills, and most here seem to believe technology making those skills obsolete is great for the hobby.  I just don't understand that mindframe. Stocking a 18th century styled firearm is one of the few ways one can really learn a skill as it pertains to guns. B barrels, locks, furniture are all made using technology unless you do it yourself. But stocks up to now where of two choices, 1) blank or plank, or 2) kit that still needed a lot of work to make a firearm.  You still had to have some ski!l or knowledge, or at least be willing to learn to pull it off. Now, 4 hours later you have a gun that is high end from what I've read. High end of course like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Time marches on, technology improves, but we don't have to let it into every dang thing we do.
I'm gonna go start my next project, and it's a kit, but one i will have to think, learn, problem solve, and even remove wood! Unless of course Mr. Kibler  has a Ferguson Rifle kit ready to cnc.
Greg

[varsity07840]

I'll admit that I'm not the fastest worker, and I had no deadline in completing my Kibler SMR, but I put at least several hours into getting the butt plate fit the way I wanted it. I added a toe plate and banana lid patch box that took some time. I learned a long time ago to walk away from inletting for a while when it gets a bit tense. I'm amazed that some people can put one together and finish the metal and wood so quickly. I had at least four hours in draw filing the barrel and getting all the marks out of the iron hardware and lock. I am picky about that stuff.

[WadePatton]

I'll admit that I'm not the fastest worker ... I am picky about that stuff.

Accuracy transcends Speed. 

Is a CW* (Morse code) users' saying and applies to lots of other things.

Why rush when you might only build a few? Enjoy the process, make it yours.

*Which is antiquated and removed from nearly all official uses these days, is yet kept quite alive and on the air by folks who appreciate things of the past that still work quite well for their purposes (kinda like us side-lock and other old tools folks).

[heinz]

Conquerodie, you can have it both ways. The Woodbury Whitson auction tifle was assembled from a Kibler kit. The box, nose cap, and toe plate were hand saw and tin snipped into shape. All metal shaping was done by hand witout electrical assistance. The moldings were done with chisels, knives and scrapers. The gun never saw sandpaper in it entire assembly including draw filing and stoning the barrel.
So the fact that a new guy stars with a kit does not mean he has to stop there. I belive having a good start will encourage him to go further.
PS I did use a propane torch on the box springs. Just @!*% laziness.

[tpr-tru]

Look at Jim Kibler  as the Henry Ford of muzzleloading, and how that industry prospered.

[conquerordie]

Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit? 😀😀😀

Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.

[stikshooter]

I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators  copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to  "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream!  They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands!  I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" .  In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.

When I was a kid, I was very much involved in building plastic scale model aircraft. I was pretty good at building historically correct examples. My best one was 1/72nd scale model of my dad's B-24, right down to the exact markings and serial number as well as added detail. Most of the markings had to be hand painted. It didn't look anything like the picture on the box, but in the end, it was still built from a kit. To qualify as "built" should I have carved it out of balsa? I think Jim's kits will inspire a new enthusiast to try using the skills gained with his kit to try something else, perhaps a Chambers, for his next rifle.  That's opposed to getting in over your head with a precarve as your first build, screwing it up and and calling it quits. That's surely not good for the industry. I thought I new a thing or two after building a TC Hawken kit and a Dixie Tenn.Mtn Rifle more than 35 years ago. Then I moved up to a swamped Issac Haines precarve with Bivens hardware. I found out what I was in for when I discovered that the not very soft bronze butt plate was 1/4'' out of square. Then came the dreaded touch hole/pan location problem. In today's dollars, that rifle would cost almost as much as Jim's. It would have been trashed if not for some help from Chuck Dixon and Dave Motto. Full disclosure. I just finished Jim's extra fancy maple  SMR and I loved every minute of the experience.

Yeah, I guess if you want to get technical about it , in order to say you "built" it ,  it should have been "built" from balsa . What you actually did was "assemble " a kit. Same as these guns!

Attitudes like this will surely increase folks interest in long rifles (NOT) jeez think what you are sayin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cuboodle]

I'm not getting this bet there are about 5 maybe 7 folks who frequent this board who can say they are longrifle builders. The rest of you order your lock,barrel,nose cap and brass sure you may have once or twice sawed out your own patchbox or inlay how many make there own box hinges and cast or forge there own trigger guards maybe a dozen or two folks. Because you can mortise a lock and barrel channel and sink a few thimbles makes you gunsmith and not wanting to do it the EASY way. Darn near everyone on here is an assembler unless you happen to be one of the 5 to 7 folks who can make every part like Wallace G..yea I have only about 20 posts on this board but have been here since 3 forum software upgrades.

[Mike Lyons]

You’re missing a period.

[Cossack]

Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit?

Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.

But what's so negative about that? Not everyone wants to stock their own guns - some just want to collect, shoot, and hunt. Jim's kits allow people to own a long rifle at a price point that competes with the Italian guns but with more quality and authenticity.

You ask "why not try" - some don't have the time or inclination. That's not a sin or even - necessarily -  a symptom of our lazy generation.

I also understand that we want something wonderful for less money these days. Once upon a time a man would spend a substantial percent of his income on a longrifle. On one hand I agree with anyone who says that we shouldn't expect handmade custom quality at Wal-Mart prices. On the other hand, nowadays a flintlock gun is a luxury item rather than a necessity for meat, defense, service, and pest control. A lot of potential buyers will be turned away by the (understandably) high cost of quality traditional muzzleloaders compared to inlines modern firearms, and never get involved in this hobby (I hate the word, but it's true). Putting quality in the reach of more buyers seems likely to help boost participation in traditional muzzleloading. I suspect that in the long term that will create a larger, rather than smaller, market for true custom guns.

[n stephenson]

I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators  copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to  "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream!  They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands!  I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" .  In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.

When I was a kid, I was very much involved in building plastic scale model aircraft. I was pretty good at building historically correct examples. My best one was 1/72nd scale model of my dad's B-24, right down to the exact markings and serial number as well as added detail. Most of the markings had to be hand painted. It didn't look anything like the picture on the box, but in the end, it was still built from a kit. To qualify as "built" should I have carved it out of balsa? I think Jim's kits will inspire a new enthusiast to try using the skills gained with his kit to try something else, perhaps a Chambers, for his next rifle.  That's opposed to getting in over your head with a precarve as your first build, screwing it up and and calling it quits. That's surely not good for the industry. I thought I new a thing or two after building a TC Hawken kit and a Dixie Tenn.Mtn Rifle more than 35 years ago. Then I moved up to a swamped Issac Haines precarve with Bivens hardware. I found out what I was in for when I discovered that the not very soft bronze butt plate was 1/4'' out of square. Then came the dreaded touch hole/pan location problem. In today's dollars, that rifle would cost almost as much as Jim's. It would have been trashed if not for some help from Chuck Dixon and Dave Motto. Full disclosure. I just finished Jim's extra fancy maple  SMR and I loved every minute of the experience.

Yeah, I guess if you want to get technical about it , in order to say you "built" it ,  it should have been "built" from balsa . What you actually did was "assemble " a kit. Same as these guns!

Attitudes like this will surely increase folks interest in long rifles (NOT) jeez think what you are sayin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It`s not about "think  what your saying". If your assembling a kit , your assembling a kit period! If I go to Lowes , and buy a playhouse ,  and put it together for my niece , I didn't "build " her a playhouse I assembled it . That doesn't mean it isn't a good playhouse , I just didn't "build it. If this a difficult concept to grasp , then maybe a kit is your best choice?

[L Meadows]

Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit? 😀😀😀

Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.

But why not try? What are you saying? I, for one, have no interest in building a gun from scratch, I want a quality gun that I can shoot. By your reasoning only people who can build a rifle from scratch should own one. I guess my next obvious question would be do you fabricate every part on the guns you build? To go further, I suppose you own a car, did you build it yourself? The device you made this post with, did you build it yourself?
     Perhaps your view goes along with what I have heard here before, countless comments about people asking about certain guns followed by comments such as "don't buy it, it's a pile of $#@*" or "they call it a Hawken, but it lack of proper arcitecture says otherwise" etc. Now along comes someone who is offering a high quality kit with the proper arcitecture and at a competitive price but because "it's too easy to assemble" and you don't have to spend months building it that makes it bad? I also see you are starting your next "kit", are you splitting hairs by saying it's ok to assemble one kit but not another because of how it's made?
      As for me, I will take the "big easy button" as you call it, and I will not fell negative about buying a CNC kit! Thanks Jim Kibler for bringing a kit to market for us "mere mortals", I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it.
      I guess the attitude displayed here is why it's better for a newbie such as myself to remain a lurker instead of a poster. To each their own!

[n stephenson]

Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit? 😀😀😀

Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.

But why not try? What are you saying? I, for one, have no interest in building a gun from scratch, I want a quality gun that I can shoot. By your reasoning only people who can build a rifle from scratch should own one. I guess my next obvious question would be do you fabricate every part on the guns you build? To go further, I suppose you own a car, did you build it yourself? The device you made this post with, did you build it yourself?
     Perhaps your view goes along with what I have heard here before, countless comments about people asking about certain guns followed by comments such as "don't buy it, it's a pile of $#@*" or "they call it a Hawken, but it lack of proper arcitecture says otherwise" etc. Now along comes someone who is offering a high quality kit with the proper arcitecture and at a competitive price but because "it's too easy to assemble" and you don't have to spend months building it that makes it bad? I also see you are starting your next "kit", are you splitting hairs by saying it's ok to assemble one kit but not another because of how it's made?
      As for me, I will take the "big easy button" as you call it, and I will not fell negative about buying a CNC kit! Thanks Jim Kibler for bringing a kit to market for us "mere mortals", I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it.
      I guess the attitude displayed here is why it's better for a newbie such as myself to remain a lurker instead of a poster. To each their own!

You just said it yourself "I`ll take the big EASY button". Well that is good for you! Don`t get butt hurt because others choose to actually do some work!  Contrary to the way it`s been going lately , this site is supposed to be about gun "building" , not about assembling reproductions.  While we`re on the subject of these kits. How did it work out for all these folks who were going to buy these kits , put them together , finish them and sell them for a profit? Seems like there is always some of them for sale , and it doesn't look like there is a lot of mark up. Along comes the newest offering , and LOW! , it can be "customized" !  When some one that doesn't have the skill to build a gun , takes one of these "colonial" kits , with it`s beautiful architecture and super tight inlets , and carves it . It will look like a Master gunsmith built it , and his 5 year old daughter carved it!! Talk about taking a $1000 worth of parts and, building a $500 gun. I agree with Greg , I`ve never seen a group that claims to have interest in an historical item, jump ship , for the "latest , greatest" . I guess in the long run not offending  their "heroes" is a little more important , than trying to continue , to "teach" people about "building" guns. Whatever!!

[stikshooter]

I find it interesting that people keep stating that "other kit manufacturers will step up their game" . This just shows an obvious lack of knowledge about how "most" kits are produced. Many of the stocks are shaped on pantograph type stock making machines ,and duplicators  copied from a master. Many of the "other" kit suppliers are older guys , that are NOT going to  "rework " their setups in a vain attempt to compete with a much more precise machine. This is a pipe dream!  They will more than likely close up shop , rather than go through a complete overhaul. I am pretty sure that the comment about future "gun assemblers" is correct. Fits in perfectly with the instant gratification society we live in. Why learn a skill , when you can get "better" results out of the box? I hope I`m around long enough to see the gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands in the future , when all the well wishers can`t find anybody capable of doing anything with their hands!  I guess I WAS wrong , I thought this forum was about "building" longrifles , not "kit building" . Kind of like a "gourmet cooking " class that tells you to pick up a bucket of KFC. Not saying that there aren't GREAT builders here , there are! Maybe a separate section for "kit building" would help ? That way people who are actually interested in "building" , won`t be bombarded with half a page of "step one : open the crate, place on the dining room table, " Step two: Slather with finish, Step three : go tell all your buddies " look at what I built" .  In the long run , those who want to learn , can`t be stopped , and those who don`t can`t be forced into it.

When I was a kid, I was very much involved in building plastic scale model aircraft. I was pretty good at building historically correct examples. My best one was 1/72nd scale model of my dad's B-24, right down to the exact markings and serial number as well as added detail. Most of the markings had to be hand painted. It didn't look anything like the picture on the box, but in the end, it was still built from a kit. To qualify as "built" should I have carved it out of balsa? I think Jim's kits will inspire a new enthusiast to try using the skills gained with his kit to try something else, perhaps a Chambers, for his next rifle.  That's opposed to getting in over your head with a precarve as your first build, screwing it up and and calling it quits. That's surely not good for the industry. I thought I new a thing or two after building a TC Hawken kit and a Dixie Tenn.Mtn Rifle more than 35 years ago. Then I moved up to a swamped Issac Haines precarve with Bivens hardware. I found out what I was in for when I discovered that the not very soft bronze butt plate was 1/4'' out of square. Then came the dreaded touch hole/pan location problem. In today's dollars, that rifle would cost almost as much as Jim's. It would have been trashed if not for some help from Chuck Dixon and Dave Motto. Full disclosure. I just finished Jim's extra fancy maple  SMR and I loved every minute of the experience.

Yeah, I guess if you want to get technical about it , in order to say you "built" it ,  it should have been "built" from balsa . What you actually did was "assemble " a kit. Same as these guns!

Attitudes like this will surely increase folks interest in long rifles (NOT) jeez think what you are sayin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It`s not about "think  what your saying". If your assembling a kit , your assembling a kit period! If I go to Lowes , and buy a playhouse ,  and put it together for my niece , I didn't "build " her a playhouse I assembled it . That doesn't mean it isn't a good playhouse , I just didn't "build it. If this a difficult concept to grasp , then maybe a kit is your best choice?

Just finishing up my Jim Kibler SMR (KIT) and it"s a beauty /Thanks Jim /Ed

[conquerordie]

Shankeyman2,

You seem offended, and I truly meant none to you or anyone who buys these kits. Typing thoughts come across in the wrong tone sometimes. I will say this, if you go to the mission statement of this site, it states it's here to preserve and support the traditional art of building a muzzleloader rifle. To me, As technology gets better and more involved in this hobby, we will go away from the traditional and in doing so, make it more modern. These kits do that. I've assembled ARs in the same time it could take to assemble a longrifle now. I apologize that I assumed members that come here wanted to learn those traditional arts that are mentioned in our mission statement.
Technology effects everyone who builds nowadays. Yes I buy some parts, make some parts, use hand tools and sometimes electric tools. I'm not a 18 th century gunsmith, I'm a 21 st century gun stocker. It's hard to escape technology but I try in this hobby to help learn and preserve those skills mentioned in our mission statement. Anyone can and should own a handstocked firearm. I can't afford a custom gun, that's why I picked up the chisel and mallet and learned. I wish more guys wanted to learn as it's one of the most satisfying accomplishments to create a 18th century firearm with your own hands.
I've recommend Kiblers  kits to others already, and I'm glad you will enjoy yours. I'm glad it will possibly being more shooters into the sport,I'm glad it will fill a niche market that others have mentioned. Lastly, I don't understand the whole should have remained a lurker comment though. It's a public forum and we all don't agree all the time. It's natural and drives thought and improvement.
Greg

[Turtle]

 After building many scratch and semi scratch rifles, I built one of Jim's excellent kits. A big draw was the 46" A weight .45 barrel which isn't available otherwise. It ended up a long lite wonderful to handle rifle. That said, I won't be building any more or his kits- It isn't satisfying for me--not enough of me in it. The stock is made so perfectly shaped there isn't enough meat to modify it much. I do know 2 new builders that are building them and that is good, but they were going to have me build them a gun--oh well.
                                               Turtle

[moleeyes36]

Unfortunately, this thread has strayed far from Fred's original post that started it.  To avoid degenerating further into a "flame war" and causing any more hurt feelings, perhaps it is time for the moderators to lock the thread.

Mole Eyes

[Jim Kibler]

Wow again!  I think it would be good if we just calm down a little.  No need to get so worked up...  These kits might be for some and not for others.  Nothing wrong with this.  Remember we're all a pretty small community with generally like minded views and interests.  Being inclusive is a good thing.  In my view, there's room for everyone here.

All the best,
Jim

[alacran]

I first saw one of Jims SMR kits shortly after they came out. I looked over the castings and the  mortises. Wow I was really impressed.
 I was a pattern maker in the pleasure craft industry.   Aside from the original "Plugs"
I fabricated original cabinetry as well as the hundreds of patterns required for the cabinet shop. The tolerances I worked with were huge compared to what Jim has to work with.
To bring a Kit to this level of accuracy is really outstanding.
I have seen a couple of jims SMR kits that were assembled and finished by two different fellows. Though you could tell they were the same gun, you could tell they were finished by different hands.
In all I would get no more pleasure from putting together one of his kits today than I did when I put together A TC kit back in the seventies.
However a good friend ordered one of his Colonial kits. He wants me to do the carving on it. I am looking forward to that.

[L Meadows]

Been a lurker here for a while, the only muzzleloader a I've owned are of the "Italian" variety! Been looking at Jim's kits and have been on the fence about buying one with my limited skills, but after watching his assembly video I think I'm ready to jump in with both feet. As mentioned, with my limited skills I would never attempt to build my own from scratch, so Jim's kits open a door for folks like myself to own a gun that otherwise be out of reach. Is it too early to start asking Jim for a Hawken kit? 😀😀😀

Don't take this negatively, but this is exactly what I'm saying. I know you don't have the skills, neither did ANY of us at first. But why not try? Instead this kit offers a big easy button. I noticed you asked for a Hawken next. I also noticed that building your first kit would not inspire you to try stocking your next gun. Why should it? The kit is so much easier! You desire the next gun you want in a package that is just as easy to make. That's what I see as the negative aspect of a CNC kit.

But why not try? What are you saying? I, for one, have no interest in building a gun from scratch, I want a quality gun that I can shoot. By your reasoning only people who can build a rifle from scratch should own one. I guess my next obvious question would be do you fabricate every part on the guns you build? To go further, I suppose you own a car, did you build it yourself? The device you made this post with, did you build it yourself?
     Perhaps your view goes along with what I have heard here before, countless comments about people asking about certain guns followed by comments such as "don't buy it, it's a pile of $#@*" or "they call it a Hawken, but it lack of proper arcitecture says otherwise" etc. Now along comes someone who is offering a high quality kit with the proper arcitecture and at a competitive price but because "it's too easy to assemble" and you don't have to spend months building it that makes it bad? I also see you are starting your next "kit", are you splitting hairs by saying it's ok to assemble one kit but not another because of how it's made?
      As for me, I will take the "big easy button" as you call it, and I will not fell negative about buying a CNC kit! Thanks Jim Kibler for bringing a kit to market for us "mere mortals", I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it.
      I guess the attitude displayed here is why it's better for a newbie such as myself to remain a lurker instead of a poster. To each their own!

You just said it yourself "I`ll take the big EASY button". Well that is good for you! Don`t get butt hurt because others choose to actually do some work!  Contrary to the way it`s been going lately , this site is supposed to be about gun "building" , not about assembling reproductions.  While we`re on the subject of these kits. How did it work out for all these folks who were going to buy these kits , put them together , finish them and sell them for a profit? Seems like there is always some of them for sale , and it doesn't look like there is a lot of mark up. Along comes the newest offering , and LOW! , it can be "customized" !  When some one that doesn't have the skill to build a gun , takes one of these "colonial" kits , with it`s beautiful architecture and super tight inlets , and carves it . It will look like a Master gunsmith built it , and his 5 year old daughter carved it!! Talk about taking a $1000 worth of parts and, building a $500 gun. I agree with Greg , I`ve never seen a group that claims to have interest in an historical item, jump ship , for the "latest , greatest" . I guess in the long run not offending  their "heroes" is a little more important , than trying to continue , to "teach" people about "building" guns. Whatever!!

And to think that people on here are constantly saying "our sport is dying, we need to get more people involved", then display this kind of attitude! Oh well, back to lurking for me, since I'm not "builder" and this is a "site dedicated to builders".

[Craig Wilcox]

Wow, this subject seems to have taken a miserable turn!
Some of us seem to feel that in order to become a "rifle builder", we have to grow our own maple tree, harvest it, then commence with a branch or part of a trunk.
Then there is the metal:  Go find you an iron ore mine, refine it into steel.  Cast your own lock.  Go visit a copper mine to get material for the brass.
Meanwhile, the other guy buys a CNC-machined kit, and does his own thing with it.  And he/she can get as elaborate or not as the personality dictates.
For most of us, I'd say about 90%+, the object is to have a flint lock rifle that can be taken to the range, or hunting, or just be hung on a wall to admire.
For the other 10%-, they are trying to make a living in a difficult field of endeavor.  My hat is off to ANYONE who elects to fill their gun cabinet with longrifles.  And if Mr. Kibler or Mr Chambers, etc., want to help them, then kudos to the kit supplier.

[flehto]

Hi Jim...someone mentioned that this topic should be locked.....I don't think this topic has "run its course" as yet and has been a civil discussion on how your products will presently  influence  the building of LRs and also w/ addt'l styles, building  in the future.

I think the suggestion of having a sub forum for kit builders is an excellent idea which will serve those who prefer not to build...although some "kits" or parts sets do come close to building, eg...Chambers Pecatonica  and a few others.  This "forum" should also include all the factory MLer kirs also.

I viewed your videos and just wondered how you intend to market them? By the way....my preference for your next introduction  would be a full blown Bucks County LR.  Might buy this  one because it's my favorite style  and also because  of my failing eyesight......can no longer build .....Fred