AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Lead ball 54 on September 08, 2018, 05:14:46 AM
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Okay I have been looking for black powder not the other stuff one store is waiting on a shippment the other store said they won't sell it cause it's an explosive and the substitutes are a propellant I never gave it much thought they both go boom I hope my store gets there shipment soon
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You can order the real stuff yourself and never run out.
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Most of us have to order it online. I don't even have a gun shop in my town.
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I should be okay in a few days it's Goex is there others I have heard of Swiss but have never seen it around here is there anything wrong with the substitutes
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Substitutes work fine in percussion guns. Lots of people say that it is a lot more corrosive than real black powder. Maybe it is. I don't know. Substitutes don't work very well in flintlocks. Ignition temperature is higher than real black powder. Sparks from a flintlock are not generally hot enough to set it off. Real black powder is required for flintlocks.
If you show up at the shooting range with substitute, people there will make fun of you.
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Substitutes don't work in a flintlock and I haven't had great luck in a percussion. Cost me a bull elk in my percussion gun when the Triple 7 did not go off. The real stuff goes off every time. Just my experience your mileage may vary as they say... They also say the subs are more corrosive but I can't say one way or the other. Goex is fine and Swiss is a bit better. Good luck with whatever you choose.
Dave
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I should be okay in a few days it's Goex is there others I have heard of Swiss but have never seen it around here is there anything wrong with the substitutes
Swiss is the best powder, but it cost $10 a lb more than Goex.
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Substitutes with Perchlorates, like Pyrodex, produce fouling that eats the iron molecules out of your steel
and is very difficult to clean from the bore.
barrel. Most long-time shooters Will suggest ONLY real black powder to be used, especially in flinters.
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A lot of the guys that use the synthetic use those little cylinders or rectangles - supposed to be 50 gr in each one.
So, several years ago I was gifted a new .50 cal (edited to meet ALR rules).
Got some of those cylinders of synthetic and off to the range.
I fired 10 rounds - they were lined up vertical, above and below the bull (100 yd range), but varied from barely on the paper at the bottom, to nearly off the paper at the top. 3 of the 10 were in the black. I call that laddering, and when I returned home, I weighed each of the cylinders on my powder scale. There was up to 10 gr difference between lightest and heaviest, and no two were the same.
Next time I went to the range, I used Goex, and had several weights already weighed out. I found that 95 gr Goex 2F would put each and every round right through the 10 ring!
PS - the Goex was absolutely easier to clean - bit of hot soapy water had her looking like new.
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I use synthetics (Triple 7 3F) in my cap guns and like it well enough. I allows me to hoard my stock of Goex since I have not found a company that will ship to Hawaii.
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Triple seven is preferable to pyrodex in terms of corrosion, and it is quite clean, energetic and consistent. I found "3f" 777 about like Swiss 3f. It does need a Magnum primer (as does pyrodex for best results) because it is harder to ignite. It can be used in a flintlock as part of a duplex load, but that is only recommended if you are really short on blackpowder or have a lot of time and obsessive attention to detail. I've tried everything just in case :). You must prime with blackpowder, in any case.
Pyrodex actually shoots ok, but the perchlorate in it is extremely corrosive! One thing I experienced with it was that my good impulse to start cleaning it with a couple of wet and dry patches before leaving the range resulted in rust by the time I got it out at home (as little as 15 minutes). I started leaving it alone after the last shot (just like I do with blackpowder) and just cleaning at home. Guess my point is that once you add water, clean thoroughly!
Since I switched to almost all flintlock years ago, I don't mess with substitutes much. Goex and Swiss are both good, with different characteristics from each other.
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In my experience, the "substitute black powders" are best used as lawn fertilizer. ;)
Mole Eyes
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I've been buying black mz from sportsman warehouse for $10 a pound.it is good stuff.
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I've been buying black mz from sportsman warehouse for $10 a pound.it is good stuff.
Isn't that the powder that looks like kitty litter?
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I've been buying black mz from sportsman warehouse for $10 a pound.it is good stuff.
Isn't that the powder that looks like kitty litter?
Yes and a bit clumpy too.ive been using it in all if my caplock from .40 to 12 ga.it ignite easy shoots very well.better than the pyrodex products as far as fouling goes to me.
I generally shoot goex fff in everything but this is do cheap
I bought a pile of it.
As far as the hate for "replica/substitute " bp,I don't like "replica" barrels,you know the ones made on modern machinery not hand rifled properly....or those darn "replica" locks and stocks fabricated with modern machinery either.
Kidding a bit about the above but it's funny where people draw the line of being a purist sometimes.
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I don't think that way. If something is a reproduction of an old firearm. It's still going to act like the old gun but be safer and affordable. A modern powder can't be anything but modern and was never used in the primitive weapons we all like.
It's easy to use the right powder. A dirty, smelly, smokey, fouling powder is a big part of traditional muzzleloaders. To me, it would seem wrong to not have it.
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I get that point. I have never fired a ball in a Muzzleloader that is not cast by myself. I will not use swaged balls. Like I said to my little pet peeve.
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I feel every time one of us uses counterfeit powder we put another nail in the coffin of our chosen sport. As cheap as muzzleloaders are to feed compared to larger caliber modern firearms if cost is the deciding factor maybe you need to start looking at another sport.
Hungry Horse
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I feel every time one of us uses counterfeit powder we put another nail in the coffin of our chosen sport. As cheap as muzzleloaders are to feed compared to larger caliber modern firearms if cost is the deciding factor maybe you need to start looking at another sport.
Hungry Horse
Disagree 100%
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Harry,
Just wondering why you disagree.
If no one buys real black powder, it will eventually be unavailable.
If substitutes don't work at all, or as well, in flintlocks, that threatens the sport.
So, again, why do you disagree?
Personally, I use the real thing, and I'll never shoot an inline or a gun that takes a 209 primer.
Martin
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Hungry Horse, Martin S. - I am with you 100%, and for the reasons stated. More and more, we see restrictions on the shooting sports, no need to add another one.
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I feel every time one of us uses counterfeit powder we put another nail in the coffin of our chosen sport. As cheap as muzzleloaders are to feed compared to larger caliber modern firearms if cost is the deciding factor maybe you need to start looking at another sport.
Hungry Horse
HH,
Very much on point; exactly right.
Mole Eyes
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What could we do if black powder wasn't available to the public anymore?
Do you think powder manufactures would care enough to come out with a low temp ignition sub for us? I have my doubts.
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Why shoot a substitute when you can shoot the real thing? Modern thinking has no place in our sport, the old ways are the best ways.
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Why shoot a substitute when you can shoot the real thing? Modern thinking has no place in our sport, the old ways are the best ways.
So you walk or ride a horse to your shooting range? I do actually.or do you drive your car with your modern thinking.
Get off your high horse (I mean high toyota)
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I have yet to find anyone using any of the substitutes that gets better accuracy than I do with Black powder.
I have belonged to clubs that are very traditional to clubs that aren't. None of the subs clean as easy as the "Black".
Most of the guys that I shoot with now, are shooting in-lines, with scopes, 209 primers etc. They spend tons of money on the stuff. Yet not one has shown me anything.
None of them can shoot of the bench better than I can offhand. At any range. Ain't saying that there aren't guys who can't. I just haven't seen them.
In one club I used to shoot at, we let anyone that wished shoot an inline. Caveat being they had to use round ball, open iron, and shoot offhand. Not many takers.
None of this technology is new, it is just more sophisticated. All this so called improvements in muzzleloading is nothing more than marketing. I predict it will eventually give us the rim-fire and the center-fire rifle EGADS!!!
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Why shoot a substitute when you can shoot the real thing? Modern thinking has no place in our sport, the old ways are the best ways.
So you walk or ride a horse to your shooting range? I do actually.or do you drive your car with your modern thinking.
Get off your high horse (I mean high toyota)
Actually I do walk. My range is on my property. No need to ride, by the time I put a rope halter on one of my horses I can walk to my range. I train all my horses to ride with a rope halter, the old way. Never had a toyota but I do favor my hot blooded Arabians.
This is the American Longrifles forum. Back in the day they shot real blackpowder. I see no reason to discuss or attempt to defend substitutes here. There are plenty of other places to do that. But if someone really wanted to learn something and not just stir the pot, then this is the place to learn it.
Personal attacks are so unproductive unless for self satisfaction. I get this High Horse thing a lot from the more modern crowd. I don't understand why an old man with a flintlock and black powder upsets people so? It's just my way, get over it.
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There is enough history /past threads etc here to fully cover the attributes and draw backs of various powders. Mad Monk has a complete article on this subject . Some of the "subs" are corrosive, some are erratic in terms of power [ higher pressures than you may desire ] , some draw moisture more readily than BP , some have less power , so lower velocities,
many don't have the long term storage capability of BP. All have higher ignition temps than BP
Having shot in long range matches [ 1000 yards ] I believe that only BP has the accuracy potential to compete. Subs don't do it. Even duplex loads [ smokeless + BP ] can't compete with BP . So, basically, the only reason that you might want to use a sub is their availability [ dealers find them easier to stock ] , however, this is a rather thin excuse if you really want the best results from your long rifle.
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you can find blackpowder in most states, but it may take some doing. get in on a club bulk order, pick it up as you see it at gunshows as i just did. also find out who is supplying powder for the "big shoots" and have them bring your order to the event. i pick up my order every year at the Quigley shoot here on Montana. any of these methods are painless and will save you money on the shipping and you get exactly what you want.
best kw
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All great information thanks guys