AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: redheart on October 29, 2018, 10:07:04 PM
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Gents, :)
Do any of you know if the "Liver Eatin' Johnston" Hawken in the Buffalo Bill Historical Center Museum is a straight or slanted breech? The snail area appears quite different than the Carson & Bridger rifles; also, I'd love to know the barrel width/length and if it's tapered or not?
Any advice on currently available parts that could be used or modified to build such a rifle would also be appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any and all enlightenment on this subject.
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I think you can look at it on there website. It's been a while but seems like the barrel is 1 1/8 x 30" or in that area.
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I think you can look at it on there website. It's been a while but seems like the barrel is 1 1/8 x 30" or in that area.
Thanks Flinch. but they only show the length of the barrel as 31.25 inches measured from only God knows where, nothing about the width ,taper or if it's a slanted breech.
They also only show the right side of the rifle. :(
I did notice that the nosecap was iron, but I'd like to know if it's sheet metal or cast.
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That is no doubt my favorite Hawken rifle. I had planned to build one based on Johnston's rifle, but haven't got around to it yet. Maybe that is where I got the 1 1/8 x 30" barrel, as I think that is the barrel I was going to use.
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Does anyone have any pictures of this rifle?
I looked on the museum website, but I could not come up with any. I'd like to see it.
I may have to go to Cody.
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Gents, :)
Do any of you know if the "Liver Eatin' Johnston" Hawken in the Buffalo Bill Historical Center Museum is a straight or slanted breech? The snail area appears quite different than the Carson & Bridger rifles; also, I'd love to know the barrel width/length and if it's tapered or not?
Any advice on currently available parts that could be used or modified to build such a rifle would also be appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any and all enlightenment on this subject.
redheart,
The breech and snail on the "Liver-Eatin' Johnston" Hawken is essentially the same as on the Carson and Bridger Hawken rifles as is the butt plate and trigger guard. By the time these rifles were built, Sam was using castings for these parts.
Liver-Eating Johnston Hawken lock and breech
(https://image.ibb.co/ciC250/Lock.png)
I don't know if the barrel was tapered or not. In practical terms, it doesn't make much difference. Often the taper on original rifles, if any, is barely noticeable and a lot less than the typical 1⅛" at breech to 1" at muzzle produced by modern barrel makers. If you were to take a 36" barrel that tapers 1⅛" at breech to 1" at muzzle and cut off 6", then it would be about 1.025" at the muzzle or a 1/10th of an inch less than a straight octagon.
Recommended parts (TOTW part numbers):
Breech Plug & Tang: PLUG-JB-18-3
Lock: LOCK-JB-R modify hammer to suit
Trigger Guard: TG-HAWK-H-I
Butt Plate: BP-HAWK-JB-I file the inside radius corner to a square and inside edge of the crescent filed back like Herb shows in link below
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=42517.msg415035#msg415035 (http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=42517.msg415035#msg415035)
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Does anyone have any pictures of this rifle?
I looked on the museum website, but I could not come up with any. I'd like to see it.
I may have to go to Cody.
Put this # in the search box on their website, it should come up. ( 2000.14.1
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Thank you.
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Here are photos of Liver Eating's Hawken from Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III Western U.S." I have his permission to copy this page.
(https://preview.ibb.co/e0dbhf/Liver-Eating-Johnson-Hawken.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cS22Nf)
The lock. Sorry for the poor focus.
(https://preview.ibb.co/miFBF0/Liver-Eating-Lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kCOL8L)
The breech does not look slanted to me.
(https://preview.ibb.co/ku1U2f/Liver-Eating-Tang.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jFSf8L)
I am making arrangements to go to the Cody Museum in two weeks to handle, measure and photograph in detail the Hawkens there. I can give you the answer when I get back. Herb
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Herb, after you do that, are you going to write a book?
I would buy one.
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Send me a note at rbpodge@twlakes.net and I will forward you the pictures I took of the rifle during my visit a few years back. The rifle is in really good shape.
Roger Sells
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Nice looking old Hawken.That hammer looks bad but it probably
came with the lock.The Davis version of the Carson lock would
work and maybe the hammer could be altered to look like this.
Bob Roller
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Redheart, it doesn't matter if the breech is straight or slanted if you are building a copy. There ain't no 1 1/8" straight breech out here, and there ain't hardly no 1 1/8" slant breeches, either. Muzzleloader Builder Supply was out the last I checked. Jedediah Starr is out. I know of no other except Track of the Wolf, and that 1 1/8" hooked breech has such a hump in the tang that it takes sever reshaping to match an original Hawken wrist shape. You either heat the tang hump white-red and pound it flatter or grind off the hump and solder a reinforcement underneath to accommodate the tang bolt countersink. The tail lifts easily to match the contour, but you got to get rid of that hump.
Most of the Hawken parts out there that I have used are badly shaped. Mtn Meek addressed the buttplate. That trigger guard has to have the loop bent more open to have the stud screw into the trigger plate at right angles. The Ron Long trigger plate has to have the front end bent down to match the stock line, and if you are exact, the triggers are too long. The entry pipe Track sells with their Hawken kits is wrong, and the correct one, RP-Hawk-TE-7-I, requires considerable reshaping. Their rear sight for Jim Bridger is too low, matching the one for Kit Carson's rifle closely, which results in a very low front sight. A better sight is their Large Hawken rear sight, saw off the front end. Their shaped and inletted stocks are nowhere near close, though their Hawken Rifle Halfstock, not inlet for lock (or anything else, just barrel channel and ram rod hole) will work. It is a half inch higher in the toe line, but it works OK for a 15/16" or 1" barrel (I just used both) and could be opened up for a 1 1/8" barrel. Pecatonica made the 15/16" stock for me, not inlet, and I liked their work. There is still a lot of work in cutting such stocks to the correct shape.
Oh, then there's the lock. Track's Jim Bridger's Hawken lock is the correct one, but if cut for the snail, the hammer probably won't reach the nipple. Then you heat the hammer white-red and lift the nose till it does. The hammer may also have to be twisted to align with the nipple. Better to get the lock not cut for snail and cut the plate yourself. I have posted this procedure on here, and Taylor has, too. Just click on my name, Herb, and a box comes up that includes "show posts by user". Do that and about 37 pages of my stuff comes up including photos. Probably everything you need in there.
The Bridger barrel is 33 1/8" ahead of the snail (I measured it up at Helena). It measures 1.175 at the breech and 1.125 at the muzzle, and Carl Walker, GRRW's gunsmith, said "you can make that much difference with a file". That is half the thickness of a dime per side in 33 1/8". I got an exact copy from Oregon Gun Works, 7 lands, right length and thickness, and 1 in 48" twist. I highly recommend them. The nose cap is .8" long, longer than Track's. I recommend MBS. They have one for an 1 1/8" barrel, and 1", but if you have a tapered barrel, the size will be 1 1/16". You either squeeze one down, or solder fillers in, or file a 1" one more open.
Martin, I have hundreds of photos of building close copies of the Bridger and Carson Hawkens and I plan to produce a How To instruction CD when I learn how to put those photos and text where I want them. Be a while.
And thanks to Mtn Meek for his authoritative photos and comments. He is a treasure on the subject of Hawkens!
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Thanks Herb, your Hawken knowledge is amazing.
I look forward to buying your CD.
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I have Jim Gordon's three book set and last evening checked out the Johnson rifle. Looking at the off side, I would say that the breech is of the slant type. It is almost identical to the Bridger Hawken on the previous page. Except that the barrel appears to me to be much larger than the Bridger rifle. So if the Bridger rifle has a 1 1/8" AF dimension at the plug, the Johnson rifle is at least 1 3/16" - 1 1/4". Just check out the name stamp on the top flat compared to the Bridger rifle. It's the same stamp but is obviously on a much wider flat. Also the above and below photos show how massive the rifle is through the breech end of the barrel. That's probably why the Hawken shop made it so short. If the barrel is tapered, and it looks like it to my eye, the taper is very minor.
What Herb has described about making available parts work, is right on the mark. In order to replicate the originals, a student must be prepared to study the details to see the differences, and then figure out how to alter the parts to match, as best as possible within the limitations of the materials. The hump in the commercially available tangs is a great example. On the originals, the tang begins to bend down immediately behind the tang's face, and is a smooth continuous curve. Commercial tangs are flat for about 1 1/2" and then bend down. If you employ the tang as is, your tang screw will end up being too close to the tang's face, and it is difficult to get it ninety degrees to the tang, and enter the trigger plate just forward of the guard's bow. The guards are even worse. One needs to reshape the bow, just as Herb has described, and also to get the spur up against the trigger plate while the rail is at the correct relationship to the bottom line of the stock.
Nose caps: I bought my last pair from MBS at 1 1/8" and had the octagon welded up so I could file it out right. They are nice castings though.
Triggers: L & R makes triggers that can be altered to work. The rear trigger needs straightening in the shoe, and buy the curved front trigger as the straight one has no shoe. The curved front trigger with the shoe can be straightened out nicely to work well.
The original Hawken rifle has so much class, they deserve to be treated with all the attention you can provide. And so far, I have only talked about the S. Hawken. Jake's work is another story, as are the rifles that were compilation work of the brothers.
Perhaps Louis and Don will add to this.
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Mtn Meek, Herb & D. Taylor,
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you !!!
I couldn't be more pleased with the info you have given to me and to all Hawken fans.
You sure put me in my place! I thought I could just order up the parts and start right in to whittlin on the stock.
Boy was I wrong! It's certainly quite a commitment if you intend to build a proper Hawken and yet you have made it seem possible.
I find it interesting that Herb thinks that it is a straight breech as I did and yet it seems unlikely for such a late rifle.
I can't wait until he has a chance to confirm which it is.
I also am pleased that D. Taylor commented on the barrel width because it always looked wider to me than any photo I'd seen of any other Hawken.
If Herb can get in and measure it it would be awesome!
The Cody Museum calls it a .56 caliber, but I suspect that they're measuring the coned muzzle.
I knew that Mtn Meek would know of all available parts and with Herb & D. Taylor could tell us how to weld, solder, file, and beat them into the proper shape.
This info saves tons of research and work.
I have one more question. I'd like to know if the L&R Hawken lock can be used for this project. The only thing I hate about the R.E. Davis Bridger lock in addition to the weird hammer is that the position of the sear spring and sear screw holes in the lock plate are also unlike 99% of the Hawkens I've seen. I know it is a small detail, but I usually can tell immediately in a photo if a Hawken is a copy if I can see the screws on the lockplate, The L&R lock screws are in the right position (I Think?). If I change the goofy hammer, Will this lock work?
Also I think everyone would love it If Don would weigh in on this rifle, but I don't know if he's had a chance to examine it. There may not be much to add at this point.
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What is the contact for Jim Gordons books?
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What is the contact for Jim Gordons books?
I've always had to call Jim directly.
Last number I had for him was 505-982-9667 mountain time zone.
If you do a search for his books sometimes you can find them used.
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Herb:
The top and bottom views of Johnson's stock seem to indicate that the wood lock panels are wider at the front than the rear. Is this a common feature of late Hawkens work? Is the angle set up by tapering the lock plate bolster. On a tapered barrel, reversing the angle of the lockplate would require quite a bit of metal removal? Maybe this reverse angle is just on the larger size barrels over 1 1/8" ?
I would like to know more.
thanks
kw
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I don't know if the breech is slant or straight, just what it looks like to me. Nor do I know of other straight breeches except that the Hawken Shop's 1" plug and tang comes in straight style, I was given one and just built it into my .54 H&H barreled Hawken. The LEJ barrel is probably 1 .25 across the flats and of actual .56 caliber. Gordon has a photo of the muzzle, which measures 2.56" across. The bore measures 1.25" across the lands. If the barrel is actually 1.25, then by proportion, 1.25 (actual barrel) is to 2.56 (photo) as X (unknown bore diameter) is to 1.25" (bore photo diameter). This calculates to .61 bore diameter, but the bore is relieved at the muzzle for loading. There is no crown. If the LEJ barrel is 1 3/16", then the calculation is .58 at the muzzle, maybe what it really is.
The Davis lock plate is close in outline to the original Hawkens, though 4.85" long and the Bridger is 5.0 long. The Davis (Jim Bridger) hammer has a 1.73" throw. The L&R ("Sam Hawken") has a 1.62" throw and is "malleable" You might be able to switch hammers and adjust the throw of the LR hammer. Or do as Taylor does and reshape the Davis hammer.
45-110, the lock panels are wider at front than rear on 1 1/8" and larger barrels, to allow for a slimmer wrist. The lock bolster can be filed down, maybe only .040" or so at rear (I'd have to check) for a taper. The Jim Bridger lock does not have a tapered bolster but achieved the taper by bending the tail of the lock plate in! Thanks to Carl Walker for this information.
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Here I am with the Bridger rifle in the Helena museum. The hammer shows well.
(https://preview.ibb.co/bAkJf0/DSC01317.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gZqjL0)
Here is my copy at top with a Davis lock.
(https://preview.ibb.co/k7LODL/DSC01298.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bVNs7f)
My copy at top, before I aged it to match the Bridger.
(https://preview.ibb.co/f3PGYL/JBMuseum-Butt-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hb0qtL)
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I was under the impression (conversations with Doc Carlson, Art Ressel, and I think T.K. Dawson way back in the day) that the heavier barreled guns all showed a rearward taper on the lock side and off side as a means to reduce the size going to the wrist also.....
Just sayin......
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Some steel is filed away from the rear end of the lock plate bolster so that 1) the panels will taper to create the proper wrist width, and 2) so that the hammer will align with the nipple without having to bend it too far inward. These images show the lock in relationship with the breech, simply held there by the pressure of the mainspring holding the hammer on the nipple.
(https://preview.ibb.co/hjmMYL/100-5689.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fBBoDL)
(https://preview.ibb.co/d7x600/100-5690.jpg) (https://ibb.co/haH600)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iYLR00/100-5691.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nuxTDL)
...and here's a before and after of the Davis hammer shaped to more resemble those on original rifles. I like the RE Davis hammer because there is enough metal there to shape it better, and it is long enough to reach the nipple. The sear screw placement does not offend me. Davis (Long) makes a great percussion lock. Not as good as a Roller, but adequate.
(https://preview.ibb.co/eqA9L0/100-5681.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k0XOf0)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nBwS7f/100-5682.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kOvyDL)
....and the hammer cup needs to be cut deeper so that the hammer reaches around the fence and down onto the nipple seat. Easy to do.
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Thanks Taylor,
For showing us what 45-110 was getting at in regards to tapering the lock bolster to get a graceful transition from the lock panels to the grip. Now that I look back at photos it appears as if they did this most if not all of the time.
In addition there's no doubt that you turned that Davis hammer into something that belongs on a Hawken and I'm probably the only one who is bothered by the screw placement of that particular lock.
I've seen your Hawken builds and they don't take a back seat to anybody's.
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HMMMMMMMMMMMM !!! seems we have another Hawken pilgrim in the ranks ! Welcome,pilgrim,may you go far !!! Best regards, Dave F,'nuther Hawken pilgrim. 8) 8)
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Cheers to you Dave F. ;D
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The late T.K Dawson who made what were possibly the best detailed Hawken copies
ever said,"The best anyone will do today is to make a representative type of this rifle"
and he included his own stunning work in that group.The Hoffman&Campbell rifle repro
he made and shown by his grandson,Mark Brier is an example of Tom's eye for the tiniest
details in reproducing this rifle.I made the lock and triggers and copied a very low quality
lock to do it.The triggers weren't much better but they fit the theme that was being used.
The lock was an Ashmore.
Taylor's comment about the Davis lock not being as good as one of mine is a fine compliment
but when you look at the locks on original Hawken and other American guns from that time,the
Davis easily surpasses them just as Taylor's superb copy of the pistol grip Hawken surpassed the
old one(s).Have fun with these builds and don't worry about perfection,it ain't gonna be there.
Bob Roller
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Taylor, you really got a good fit of the breech to the tang. That gives me fits! And it is very important for good accuracy. It is so important that if a builder (who shoots for accuracy) cannot get a good fit, I recommend glueing the two pieces together to make them solid. That eliminates the reseating of the parts due to recoil, detrimental to accuracy.
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Thanks Herb, and you are absolutely correct about the need for an as perfect as possible fit with the plug and the standing breech. I take some time there, and have made scrapers to remove steel where the contact does not allow perfection. When done, I solder the two together for filing the snail, and straightening the tang. They remain a unit until the tang is fully inlet.
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I went to Cody and measured the Liver Eating Johnson Hawken. The barrel is 31.75" long ahead of the snail. It is 1.3" across the flats ahead of the snail and 1.218" at the muzzle. The bore has 7 lands and grooves and the twist is 1 inch in 48 inches. The bore I measured with bore gauges I make as .537 (call it .54 caliber) and the muzzle is filed, at least .58 across. The museum uses as tapered brass bore gauge, so they don't read the bore diameter. You can get a custom barrel built to these specs by Oregon Gun Works or Bobby Hoyt, but you couldn't get a breech plug and tang to match. Better to get it 1.250 at the breech and then use Track's Hawken Plug-PH-20-3, 1 1/4" slant with 3/4x16 threaded journal 1/2" long. If you want a lighter rifle, go with a 1 1/8" straight barrel. Underrib is 18.125" long, riveted on with 4 rivets
Mountain Meek gave you the correct part numbers for lock, butt plate, triggers and trigger guard. Toeplate is a beavertail. No commercially available correct entry pipe, I'd file one out of the TE-7-I, 2.6" long, opened to .480 inside diameter. Rod pipes are .500 inside diameter, 1.26" long. Ramrod had a concealed ball puller on the inside end, .400 at wood, but .500 at the muzzle end. Lock was 4.9" long, hammer was notched. Lock panels are 1.710 across the front and 1.5 at the rear.
Stock is 2.1" deep ahead of the trigger guard and at the keys. No fish belly to toeline or forend. Rear sight is thick, closest I could come is Track's RS-PA-11, cut to a 3/8" base. Best stock is Pecatonica's halfstock Hawken for a 1 1/8" barrel (you'd have to inlet the 1 1/4" barrel in, no problem), drilled for 7/16" ramrod (1/2" to entry pipe, then can reduce to 7/16" diameter with a rod tip inside). No inletting other than barrel and rod hole. Drop at heel is 3", which this stock has. No cast off, and pitch (butt plate flat on floor and tang touching a vertical wall) is 5 inches to top of barrel. Nose cap is .75 long, cast steel, Muzzleloader Builder's Supply lists the correct one, but is out of stock. Otherwise go with their 1" size (.8" long) and file open to fit the barrel. I get a Davis Jim Bridger lock not cut for snail and cut my own so the hammer hits the nipple correctly.
I also did the pistol grip Hawken, the W. S. (Denver) Hawken, and 1997.4.8 (with a patch box). I was too beat after a bad night's sleep at the IRMA (Buffalo Bill's) hotel with hammering steam radiators to do any more. I have a few pictures and will be getting high quality photos from the museum in a few days.
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Thanks for the research Herb. Good stuff to know if one wants to make a as close as possible replica. :)
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The trigger reach from center of butt plate to the front trigger is 13.375 inches.
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Herb,
Thanks a million for doing this. :) I love having all of this information and can't wait to hear about what else you found out on this trip.
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Herb, your details for the Johnson rifle show a maker's eye. I honestly cannot tell if the breech is slanted or not, but suspect you are right...straight 90 deg.
break off. And idea of the weight of Johnson's rifle? Looks to me like the ideal offhand rifle!!
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I called the breech Slant, and Bob wrote that on my sheet. But my photo seems to show a straight breech. My photo PMB software is not working correctly with my new Sony DSC-W830. Photo OK in camera but does not upload to my computer correctly. Bob has better photos, and Danny (the curator) is sending us their high-quality photos of their Hawkens. Maybe I can get a better photo of the breech and tang.
(https://i.ibb.co/5jqNtCp/LEJ-lock-ruler.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ykLwGKv)
(https://i.ibb.co/5WPxXz9/LEJ-lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7JqNxTz)
The image is split, disregard that and look to see if the breech plug is straight or slant. If you enlarge this photo (hold down control and hit the + sign) it looks as if the joint is straight down to the side flat but slant under that. We weren't allowed to dismount the barrels or locks, so couldn't examine it. We did pull the ramrods, except the one in the W.S. Hawken (Denver C.T) was stuck tight.
(https://i.ibb.co/bN1nZLb/LEJ-left-panel.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XFXTgpY)
(https://i.ibb.co/cybZMB9/LEJ-left-panel-triggers.jpg) (https://ibb.co/grvfH28)
(https://i.ibb.co/wK22zNX/LEJ-front-stock-bottom-ruler.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K988rjk)
The concealed ball puller. The rifle with a patch box, 1997.4.8, has a reversible patch puller on its rod.
(https://i.ibb.co/WBFhq77/LEJ-Hawken-ramrod.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CVvcN44)
(https://i.ibb.co/1s5hwHS/LEJ-rear-sight-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YDMYqvr)
(https://i.ibb.co/9gBX4t1/LEJ-rear-sight.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r0qPpsz)
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Here is the muzzle. The rib is soldered at the front, the first rivet is 3.75 inches from the front, ahead of the first rod pipe, the face of which is 4.25 inches from the muzzle.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1gcfDy/LEJ-muzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NnNWFBw)
The ram rod is .50 inches at the front with a brass collar.
(https://i.ibb.co/9HsT3YF/LEJ-Hawken-rod-tip.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tp8sPC7)
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Some observations from these images. If the breech is slanted, it is very slight. Note the nipple angle - much closer to straight up than modern snails. The hammer cup is cut to strike the nipple flat, and has a deep cup to come well down on the nipple. The hammer cup is split .
Note how long the trigger guard bow is compared to modern offerings.
The under-rib has flat sides, not concaved.
The tang starts its arc immediately at the break off...there is no flat section to the first screw.
The front trigger is slightly longer than the back trigger, and the back trigger has only a slight arc - much less than modern offerings.
The lock retaining screw is slightly inlet into the escutcheon, and its head is slightly domed - and in wonderful condition. The hammer screw is almost flat, rather than domed, and also in great shape.
The internal lock screws are small - perhaps #5's or even #4's. The screw spring screw is well forward of the screw screw. The lock plate is bevelled right to the barrel, forward of the snail - integral with the moulding.
The guard spur and the rail contact the trigger plate.
The barrel slides enter from the right.
The hammer has no chequering on the thumb spur.
The entry pipe has very fine raised beads. This pipe would be easy to make from sheet steel.
There's likely lots I've missed. Thanks for this great insight into an iconic Hawken, Herb.
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Basic question: is this marked S Hawken?
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Yes, it is S. Hawken. These photos are from Gordon's book, with his permission.
(https://i.ibb.co/NCyXL81/Liver-Eating-Johnson-Hawken.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C8HqnkJ)
It is amazing the details that can be learned from good photos. Thanks very much Taylor, and anyone else who pitches in. I laid some of these rifles on Track's catalog full-sized photos of parts to compare. The LEJ trigger guard is the same as Jim Bridger's and Kit Carson's, Track's TG-Hawk-L-I. What is different is that the triggers on the LEJ rifle are closer together. The rear one is less curved, .830 long, and farther back in the bow. I don't know if they are set in the pictures, I did not set any of them. The front one is .960 long. Notice that it is closer to the sear adjustment screw between the two triggers than on current double set triggers, Ron Long's or L&R. The key ends are grooved so I think they are likely pinned. I did not pull any to check. Key heads were on the left in the capbox rifle with ends grooved and in the pistol grip rifle with ends not grooved, and on the right in the W.S. Hawken Denver rifle, ends not grooved.