AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: redheart on November 28, 2018, 04:50:58 AM
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Just noticed that the "bag grip" Hawken at the Cody Museum has a Remington marked barrel on it, Are there others known with Remington barrels?
Also, do most original Hawkens have a 1 in 48 twist regardless of caliber? :o :-\ ??? :-[
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Yes , there are several original Hawken rifles that have Remington barrels on them . I tend to believe that the pistol grip Hawken rifles are most likely made by Gemmer , pretty late features . I have seen several other barrel makers names on other Hawken rifles as well .
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I guess Don is out to lunch so I'll take a stab at this. It is my understanding that the Hawken bros. purchased barrel blanks from various sources and reamed and rifled them to their specs in 1/48 twist. There is a thorough description of the Hawken type rifling which could be described as "choke bored" with "slight funneling" in "Hawken Rifles" by Baird. Baird was able to unbreech and measure an original Hawken barrel and he describes the 1/48 twist 50 cal barrels' condition as "remarkable in its state of preservation". He also describes another rifle with a .56 cal barrel (twist not specified) " marked on the underside"...."Made by H W Reeds of Reading PA, it is one of several Hawken rifles found with eastern made barrels" SOOO Guys, Pull out your Hawken rifles and if the rifling is good enough can you measure it and does it have another makers name on it??????? ..… Ed
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Moses & Longknife, :)
Thanks very much for the great info.
I do hope more folks weigh in on this subject. Not just for me but so we have more general Hawken knowledge available.
Herb is a great guy for this because he's always out measuring and analyzing the originals for us.
With D. Taylor out there as a consummate builder. Mtn Meek out there as the contemporary Hawken Guru and guys like you it really makes it fun.
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I have seen barrels from at least three different makers but never measured the twist rates
My late halfstock was a 52 cal and my fullstock was a 49. The squirrel rifles were 38
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Don, I know Art Ressel purchased what was left of the original Hawken Shop back in the "60's. Was there a rifling bench in this purchase?....Ed
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The original rifling bench is on display at the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Museum in St. Louis .
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Don, I know Art Ressel purchased what was left of the original Hawken Shop back in the "60's. Was there a rifling bench in this purchase?....Ed
I'd sure love to see an inventory of everything Ressel bought from the shop.
I always wondered if they had a stock duplicating machine because having worked at Harpers Ferry Arsenal they perhaps would have be quite familiar with using one.
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The original rifling bench is on display at the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Museum in St. Louis .
If I lived close enough I'd go over and check out the rate of twist on that rifling machine! :)
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Just a passing comment.....
The buy out that Art Ressel did, if memory serves me, was with the Gemmer estate from the Gemmer shop. Hawken had sold out to J.P. Gemmer. Although there were Hawken items in the purchase there were also Gemmer items. That rifling bench may not have been Hawken but rather Gemmer.
I do not know one way or the other but........
Just sayin..... food for thought.
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Gentleman, I have the rifling bench. Still in use today.
Mark Brier
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Gentleman, I have the rifling bench. Still in use today.
Mark Brier
Great joke Mark! ;D
Sure got my heart beatin for a few minutes.
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No, I have the rifling bench from the Gemmer shop. It went from Russel, to Ed White who did some restoration work on it. My grandfather T.K. Dawson purchased the bench from Ed. After my grandad cut all the barrels he wanted to he sold the bench to Dave Hutchison who apprenticed with granddad for awhile. It sat dormant in Indianapolis for several decades. I then purchased the rifling bench from Mr. Hutchison about 20 years ago.
Mark Brier
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Gentleman here are some pictures of the bench. It now sits on a piece of channel iron ( work done by Ed White). These pictures are from rifling the barrel of the last Hawken that I built to which there is an old post for.
Mark Brier
(https://i.ibb.co/nMbnVrB/IMG-2714.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fd2nKM9)
(https://i.ibb.co/5MpNPYL/IMG-2984.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DVcxZGQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/RHgmWKV/IMG-2985.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PCrn8yf)
(https://i.ibb.co/L8HQqtm/IMG-2710.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s2z5Dwn)
(https://i.ibb.co/jrN0ByH/IMG-2711.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wzkG3SY)
(https://i.ibb.co/p08pkVg/IMG-2712.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kHfFPbp)
(https://i.ibb.co/9WRXXMP/IMG-2713.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m4Qssxp)
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I'd sure love to see an inventory of everything Ressel bought from the shop. I always wondered if they had a stock duplicating machine because having worked at Harpers Ferry Arsenal they perhaps would have be quite familiar with using one.
This is little off topic, but since you raised the question in your own thread...Charles Hanson, Jr. in his book The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History goes to some length to make the point that the Hawken brothers ran a relatively small gun shop and not a sizable factory operation. Hanson (page 20) cites the first manufacturing census of St. Louis in 1850 with statistics of Sam Hawken's operation:
- $1,000.00 invested in the business
- previous year used
- 2,000 ft of lumber
- 1 ton of iron
- 520 pounds of steel
- 2,200 pounds of charcoal
- 50 pounds of brass
- costing a total of $500.00
- employed four hands at a total monthly payroll of $120.00
- year's production had been 100 rifles and 20 shotguns worth total of $2,700.00
- all work was done by hand [emphasis added]
It doesn't seem likely that they could have justified the expense of a stock duplicating machine to build 100 rifles per year.
Then there is the question of power to run such a machine. Their shop was located near the river, but there is no indication that it was close enough to utilize water power. The picture below is of the shop during J. P. Gemmer's ownership, and the shop had other locations earlier, but it appears to be located close to retail shops such as a furniture store and a hardware store down the street--not in an area being supplied by water power.
Hawken Rifle Factory, St. Louis, Missouri, circa 1860s-1870s
(https://civilwartalk.com/attachments/pfimbmb-onivn-jpg.41163/)
Steam engines were available by the late 1830s, but with only $1,000 investment in the business by 1850, it doesn't seem likely that it included the cost of a steam engine and a stock duplicating machine.
If the census data did include a reference that "all work was done by hand", and I have no reason to assume that Hanson misrepresented the report, then that alone seems to rule out any use of powered machinery.
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The original rifling bench is on display at the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Museum in St. Louis .
I believe the Thomas Jefferson Memorial is in Washington, D.C.
You must be thinking of the Missouri History Museum in St. Louis or the Museum of Westward Expansion near the Arch.
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Can I assume that cutter is not original?
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Yes you are correct to assume that. I make a new head and cutter each time I do a barrel.
Mark
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The museum I referred to is the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Museum in Forrest Park in St.Louis . The rifling machine along with many items from the Gemmer estate was donated by Owen Corporation (Winchester) .
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Mark, so its a sine bar machine. No way to determine what twist rate they used for their plains rifles. That might explain the odd twist that Don posted. There is a display in the Missouri History museum that is located in the Jefferson memorial building in Forrest Park of Hawken items. Its been a long time since I visited. I will have to make a visit and see what is there....Ed
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No, I have the rifling bench from the Gemmer shop. It went from Russel, to Ed White who did some restoration work on it. My grandfather T.K. Dawson purchased the bench from Ed. After my grandad cut all the barrels he wanted to he sold the bench to Dave Hutchison who apprenticed with granddad for awhile. It sat dormant in Indianapolis for several decades. I then purchased the rifling bench from Mr. Hutchison about 20 years ago.
Mark Brier
Wowie Mark :)
You are certainly blessed, not only to have this rifling machine but also to be the grandson of one of the great contemporary Hawken pioneers, T.K. Dawson.
Thanks for the great photos and info. By the way I'd sure love to see close-ups of that fine Hawken you built, after you antiqued it.
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Phil, :)
Thanks a million for the photo and info on the "Hawken Rifle Factory". I never knew it was called that. I had no idea it was such a small operation and I'm happy for any info that you have the time to give us.
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Longknife, yes it is a sine bar machine. If you look at the operator end view picture you will notice on the left side that it is adjustable to almost any rate of twist. If memory serves it goes from 1-10" to 1-98". It also has the indexing head that is able to cut 7, 6, or 5 groove rifling.
Redheart, I no longer have that rifle, I didn't get to keep it for a month , someone wanted it worse than I did so I couldn't turn the offer down.
Mark Brier
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My apologies, moseswhite.
As Longknife pointed out, it is the Missouri History Museum located in the Jefferson Memorial Building. So we both are talking about the same place.
https://mohistory.org/blog/the-missouri-history-museum-an-architectural-gem/ (https://mohistory.org/blog/the-missouri-history-museum-an-architectural-gem/)
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Phil, :)
Thanks a million for the photo and info on the "Hawken Rifle Factory". I never knew it was called that. I had no idea it was such a small operation and I'm happy for any info that you have the time to give us.
Just for fun, here is another photo I found of the same area, but this one was taken in 1887 according to the tags with it. Notice that Gemmer's Hawken Rifle Factory has moved, and it appears a bar called "What Cheer" has taken its place.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2733/4441097939_880611c3e3_z.jpg?zz=1)
On another note, Hanson says in his book that, "Gemmer is known to have used the term 'Hawken Rifle Factory' in the late 1870's...However, I found no indication that the term was ever used by any of the Hawkens while they were in business".
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Love it Phil,
Many thanks. :)
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Wonderful stuff- thanks Mark, for the pictures and story. Glad that machine is working still. I don't know if Sam had a sine-bar machine - possibly, but not likely, me thinks.
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Mark , it looks like the Hawken rifle you built was from one of Art's kits ?
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You all seem to have a great deal of info on the Hawken "factory". Many good rifles produced there in the "Gateway to the West", whether by the Hawken family or the Gemmers. And you are improving my mind remarkably.
I used to kind of disregard the Hawken rifles. Probably a bit of dislike, on my part, of percussion guns. But - I believe that you have changed my mind for me. Certainly the Hawken rifles were an integral part of the westward expansion, and of the later period of the fur trapping business.
So, the arch to our left of the gun "factory" and the "What Cheer" bar is the original St. Louis "Arch"!??
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So, the arch to our left of the gun "factory" and the "What Cheer" bar is the original St. Louis "Arch"!??
May be. It is the approach to the Eads Bridge which was completed in 1874. Shown here under construction about 1870.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/94/1a/a8/941aa81fb8d06f6819a8c8a5943e8e17.jpg)
Here is a map that shows area of St. Louis around 1826 and locates the various shops that the Hawken brothers had over time. The J. P. Gemmer "Hawken Rifle Factory" from the first photo is location "10" on the map below. It is about where the east side of I-44 is now, right near the northwest corner of the Gateway Arch Park. Location "6" on the map is the J&S Hawken shop which is part of the approach to the Eads Bridge now. The Arch itself would be located almost straddling Market St. at the bottom of the map.
(https://i.ibb.co/JCcB6Hq/St-Louis-map-Hawken-shops.jpg)
If you ever go to the Arch and park in the parking garage at the north end of the park, you will be close to where Pierre Chouteau Sr. mansion was and not for from the AFC offices/warehouses and the Hawken brothers shops. Hallowed ground if you are a student of the fur trade.
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Mark's grandfather and I were there in 1972 and he told me the Eads Bridge was the
first iron bridge in America.Also the left leg of the current arch is on the site of the
Albright Hardware Store that was also a major supplier during the Westward Expansion.
That had to be in September of '72 because or second son,Eric was only 6 weeks old,
born on 29 July that years.I remember visiting with Art Resell and he gave me the
breech and tang from the Gemmer Shop I still have.We had just bought a new Lincoln
and on the trip to St.Louis from Willimasport to St;Louis I cruised at about 90MPH and
remember Tom saying,"I hope Ford uses high quality tires on these heavy cars."
Memories,ThanK God for them and they will never be repeated.
Bob Roller