Hawken/Remington barrels & rate of twist

[redheart]

Just noticed that the "bag grip" Hawken at the Cody Museum has a Remington marked barrel on it, Are there others known with Remington barrels?
Also, do most original Hawkens have a 1 in 48 twist regardless of caliber?

[moseswhite]

Yes , there are several original Hawken rifles that have Remington barrels on them . I tend to believe that the pistol grip Hawken rifles are most likely made by Gemmer , pretty late features . I have seen several other barrel makers names on other Hawken rifles as well .

[Longknife]

I guess Don is out to lunch so I'll take a stab at this. It is my understanding that the Hawken bros. purchased barrel blanks from various sources and reamed and rifled them to their specs in 1/48 twist. There is a thorough description of the Hawken type rifling which could be described as "choke bored" with "slight funneling" in   "Hawken Rifles" by Baird. Baird was able to unbreech and measure an original Hawken barrel and he describes the 1/48 twist 50 cal barrels' condition as "remarkable in its state of preservation". He also describes another rifle with a .56 cal barrel (twist not specified) " marked on the underside"...."Made by H W Reeds of Reading PA, it is one of several Hawken rifles found with eastern made barrels" SOOO Guys, Pull out your Hawken rifles and if the rifling is good enough can you measure it and does it have another makers name on it?  ..… Ed   

[redheart]

Moses & Longknife,

Thanks very much for the great info.
I do hope more folks weigh in on this subject. Not just for me but so we have more general Hawken knowledge available.
Herb is a great guy for this because he's always out measuring and analyzing the originals for us.
With D. Taylor out there as a consummate builder. Mtn Meek out there as the contemporary Hawken Guru and guys like you it really makes it fun.

[Don Stith]

I have seen barrels from at least three different makers but never measured the twist rates
 My late halfstock was a 52 cal and my fullstock was a 49. The squirrel rifles were 38

[Longknife]

Don, I know Art Ressel purchased what was left of the original Hawken Shop back in the "60's. Was there a rifling bench in this purchase?....Ed

[moseswhite]

The original rifling bench is on display at the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Museum in St. Louis .

[redheart]

Don, I know Art Ressel purchased what was left of the original Hawken Shop back in the "60's. Was there a rifling bench in this purchase?....Ed

I'd sure love to see an inventory of everything Ressel bought from the shop.
I always wondered if they had a stock duplicating machine because having worked at Harpers Ferry Arsenal they perhaps would have be quite familiar with using one.

[redheart]

The original rifling bench is on display at the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Museum in St. Louis .

If I lived close enough I'd go over and check out the rate of twist on that rifling machine!

[Huntschool]

Just a passing comment.....

The buy out that Art Ressel did, if memory serves me, was with the Gemmer estate from the Gemmer shop. Hawken had sold out to J.P. Gemmer.   Although there were Hawken items in the purchase there were also Gemmer items. That rifling bench may not have been Hawken but rather Gemmer.

I do not know one way or the other but........

Just sayin..... food for thought.

[mark brier]

Gentleman, I have the rifling bench. Still in use today.
Mark Brier

[redheart]

Gentleman, I have the rifling bench. Still in use today.
Mark Brier

Great joke Mark! 
Sure got my heart beatin for a few minutes.

[mark brier]

No, I have the rifling bench from the Gemmer shop. It went from Russel, to Ed White who did some restoration work on it. My grandfather T.K. Dawson purchased the bench from Ed. After my grandad cut all the barrels he wanted to he sold the bench to Dave Hutchison who apprenticed with granddad for awhile. It sat dormant in Indianapolis for several decades. I then purchased the rifling bench from Mr. Hutchison about 20 years ago.
Mark Brier

[mark brier]

Gentleman here are some pictures of the bench. It now sits on a piece of channel iron ( work done by Ed White). These pictures are from rifling the barrel of the last Hawken that I built to which there is an old post for.
Mark Brier

[Mtn Meek]

I'd sure love to see an inventory of everything Ressel bought from the shop.  I always wondered if they had a stock duplicating machine because having worked at Harpers Ferry Arsenal they perhaps would have be quite familiar with using one.

This is little off topic, but since you raised the question in your own thread...Charles Hanson, Jr. in his book The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History goes to some length to make the point that the Hawken brothers ran a relatively small gun shop and not a sizable factory operation.  Hanson (page 20) cites the first manufacturing census of St. Louis in 1850 with statistics of Sam Hawken's operation:

• $1,000.00 invested in the business
• previous year used
• 2,000 ft of lumber
• 1 ton of iron
• 520 pounds of steel
• 2,200 pounds of charcoal
• 50 pounds of brass
• costing a total of $500.00
• employed four hands at a total monthly payroll of $120.00
• year's production had been 100 rifles and 20 shotguns worth total of $2,700.00
• all work was done by hand [emphasis added]

It doesn't seem likely that they could have justified the expense of a stock duplicating machine to build 100 rifles per year.

Then there is the question of power to run such a machine.  Their shop was located near the river, but there is no indication that it was close enough to utilize water power.  The picture below is of the shop during J. P. Gemmer's ownership, and the shop had other locations earlier, but it appears to be located close to retail shops such as a furniture store and a hardware store down the street--not in an area being supplied by water power.

Hawken Rifle Factory, St. Louis, Missouri, circa 1860s-1870s


Steam engines were available by the late 1830s, but with only $1,000 investment in the business by 1850, it doesn't seem likely that it included the cost of a steam engine and a stock duplicating machine.

If the census data did include a reference that "all work was done by hand", and I have no reason to assume that Hanson misrepresented the report, then that alone seems to rule out any use of powered machinery.

[Mtn Meek]

The original rifling bench is on display at the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Museum in St. Louis .

I believe the Thomas Jefferson Memorial is in Washington, D.C.

You must be thinking of the Missouri History Museum in St. Louis or the Museum of Westward Expansion near the Arch.

[Shreckmeister]

Can I assume that cutter is not original?

[mark brier]

Yes you are correct to assume that. I make a new head and cutter each time I do a barrel.
Mark

[moseswhite]

The museum I referred to is the Thomas Jefferson Memorial Museum in Forrest Park in St.Louis . The rifling machine along with many items from the Gemmer estate was donated by Owen Corporation (Winchester) .

[Longknife]

Mark, so its a sine bar machine.  No way to determine what twist rate they used for their plains rifles. That might explain the odd twist that Don posted. There is a display in  the Missouri History museum that is located in the Jefferson memorial building in Forrest Park of Hawken items. Its been a long time since I visited. I will have to make a visit and see what is there....Ed

[redheart]

No, I have the rifling bench from the Gemmer shop. It went from Russel, to Ed White who did some restoration work on it. My grandfather T.K. Dawson purchased the bench from Ed. After my grandad cut all the barrels he wanted to he sold the bench to Dave Hutchison who apprenticed with granddad for awhile. It sat dormant in Indianapolis for several decades. I then purchased the rifling bench from Mr. Hutchison about 20 years ago.
Mark Brier

Wowie Mark

You are certainly blessed, not only to have this rifling machine but also to be the grandson of one of the great contemporary Hawken pioneers, T.K. Dawson.
Thanks for the great photos and info. By the way I'd sure love to see close-ups of that fine Hawken you built, after you antiqued it.

[redheart]

Phil,

Thanks a million for the photo and info on the "Hawken Rifle Factory". I never knew it was called that. I had no idea it was such a small operation and I'm happy for any info that you have the time to give us.

[mark brier]

Longknife, yes it is a sine bar machine. If you look at the operator end view picture you will notice on the left side that it is adjustable to almost any rate of twist. If memory serves it goes from 1-10" to 1-98". It also has the indexing head that is able to cut 7, 6, or 5 groove rifling.

Redheart, I no longer have that rifle, I didn't get to keep it for a month , someone wanted it worse than I did so I couldn't turn the offer down.
Mark Brier

[Mtn Meek]

My apologies, moseswhite.

As Longknife pointed out, it is the Missouri History Museum located in the Jefferson Memorial Building.  So we both are talking about the same place.

https://mohistory.org/blog/the-missouri-history-museum-an-architectural-gem/

[Mtn Meek]

Phil,

Thanks a million for the photo and info on the "Hawken Rifle Factory". I never knew it was called that. I had no idea it was such a small operation and I'm happy for any info that you have the time to give us.

Just for fun, here is another photo I found of the same area, but this one was taken in 1887 according to the tags with it.  Notice that Gemmer's Hawken Rifle Factory has moved, and it appears a bar called "What Cheer" has taken its place.



On another note, Hanson says in his book that, "Gemmer is known to have used the term 'Hawken Rifle Factory' in the late 1870's...However, I found no indication that the term was ever used by any of the Hawkens while they were in business".