AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: davec2 on August 26, 2020, 02:00:12 AM
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Bob,
I saw this part of your post in the recent heat treating thread (which I didn't want to hijack):
"I have been using my dwindling supply of Kasenit on these triggers I make and am NOT happy with Brownells or Cherry Red. I would like to get some more Kasenit but will not pay a gougers price for it or anything else."
My supply of Kasenit is also dwindling so, in examining MSDS information, I think the only major difference between the other available surface heat treating compounds and the old Kasenit is the presence of sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate. So I have purchased some sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate (available by mail order, 1.1.pounds for ~ $20) and will mix it with some of Brownells surface hardening compound. If this works as well as I think it will, I'll send you some. I don't want you to run out as long as you're still making triggers..... :) ;)
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Davec2,
Thank you and you make me wish I had taken chemistry in high school.
Keep me and the rest of us posted.
Bob Roller
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8-25-20
davec2
If you would share the amount of sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate you added to the Brownells surface hardening compound and any other details of your experiments I would appreciate very much.
Best Regards.
Robert
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Robert,
I just ordered a tub of the surface hardening compound from Brownells and the 500 grams of sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate. They both should be here in a week or so. According to their respective MSDS documents both Cherry Red and Brownells are made up of Potassium Nitrate and Chromium Oxide III. According to the old MSDS for Kasenit, it was ~ 46% sodium ferrocyanide. So my thought right now is that I will mix the Brownells and the sodium ferrocyanide about half and half by weight. And because the Brownells and Cherry Red are basically the same thing, the addition of the sodium ferrocyanide should work with either one.
I'm away from home at the moment but will try this out when the materials arrive and I can get back to the shop. I will report progress.
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8-26-20
davec2,
Thanks for the reply and sharing your information.
Best Regards,
Robert
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The Brownell's and the Cherry Red harden well enough but they leave an ugly color
that looks bad.
Bob Roller
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I used the cherry red on some screw heads that when finished were rough as a cob.
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I use a product called "Hard 'n Tuff" which I was given about 40 years ago by a mill worker. After quench, a green/black scale needs to be removed, so I use a wire wheel in my drill press, which burnishes and leaves a grey finish I can live with.
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Greetings,
I did a little searching on the internet for supplier of Sodium Ferrocyanide decahydrate found WEGO and Alfa Aesar. I was wondering where you found yours. Thanks, Hank
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Laballey.com
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Thanks much.
Hank
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Taylor,
Over the years of using Kasenit, I have gotten much the same thing. After the quench in brine, the surface of the part is covered with a dark, not-to-adherent coating that comes off easily with a powered wire brush leaving a pleasing grey finish. And the part is hard. I think the "ugly color" Bob mentions is just a tough oxide layer. The primary constituent in Cherry Red and in Brownells surface hardeners is, of all things, potassium nitrate !!! So I think the operative mechanism is that the melted KNO3 is imparting a certain amount of nitrogen at temperature to "nitride" the steel surface. However, since potassium nitrate also contains a large percentage of oxygen, it contributes to the hard scaling that Bob is talking about. The sodium ferrocyanide has no oxygen but contains only sodium, iron, and triple bonded carbon / nitrogen. So you get a nitrocarburizing processes.....both carbon and nitrogen are diffusing into the steel surface to harden it. By just mixing the Brownells stuff with the sodium ferrocyanide there will still be KNO3 present, but not in the same concentration. I'm betting the hardening will be much improved but I will find out if the KNO3 still leaves a heavily oxidized / scaled surface.
Will keep you posted.
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Ha Ha....sounds like rocket science to me, but I would be interested in your results of the fifty fifty mix you mentioned.
Cheers Richard
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Dave I have to agree regarding the potassium nitrate as a likely source of the hard scale and would go so far as to suggest not using the Brownell product.
When I taught Chemistry I used nothing but potassium ferrocyanide for case-hardening flintlock parts and never encountered any failures.
Cheers, Henry ( in the UK)
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I have problems with the Brownell's and the Cherry Red with the black color
It is smooth but ugly and the parts are hardened.The Kasenit leaves a nice color
and I use a nitrated quench of 5 gallons of distilled water and a pound of potassium
nitrate.I can't make a set up like RAT made and some of the others have done and
shown here.
Bob Roller
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I had a can of Kasenit from years ago and went to look for it when I was building a Hawken, couldn't find it. I also bought Brownells surface hardening compound. Worked well for internal parts. I did research on MSDS sheet and I see a hand written copy that list Sodium Ferrocyanide . One MSDS sheet , typed copy list Potassium Ferrocyanide and I bought a pound. Also one sheet listed Carbon Black as an ingredient. Went to the shop this morning and pulled 2, 1/4" screws out and polished the head. Hit one with a file to make sure it was mild steel. heated both bright red, dipped one in Brownells and reheated about a minute, cherry red and quenched in tap water. Did the same to the other and dipped into Potassium Ferrocyanide. Results was Brownells was solid grey and Potassium Ferrocyanide colors were mixture of greys and almost black spots. Both cleaned up smooth, and both a file wouldn't cut. Wonder if the extra ingredient in Kasenit was Carbon Black?. Maybe some Nitrates in the water would give some better colors. I ordered a pound of Sodium Ferrocyanide and a pound of bone charcoal from Lab Alley. Will play with this some more.
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When I lived in Denver I was friends with Ron Long. I remember him hardening a frizzen for me. He used Kasenit. His technique was to hold the frizzen with a pair of pliers so the face of the frizzen was face up and horizontal, he then heated the frizzen from below with a torch when the frizzen started to glow he would sprinkle on the Kasenit with a spoon, he kept the frizzen glowing and as the Kasenit bubbled down he would sprinkle on more Kasenit. He did that four or five times. He then quenched it in water. It turned out glass hard and the he tempered the frizzen up the the bottom of the frizzen. I do not recall how much scale was left but I just polished out the frizzen as I would do to any othe metal part. I remember that I never had any problem getting a shower of sparks and never had cut through the case hardening even after thousands of shots. I hope this helps.
Cheers Richard
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I'm glad there is interest in this and, Henry, you may be right about not mixing the two. We'll find out. There is something else in the original Kasenit and the sodium ferrocyanide is only 46% of the mix. It may also have some carbon black, but not 54%. I don't have any capability in the way of an analytical chem lab, but there may be some "old school" ways to determine what the heck the other ingredients are in Kasenit. Might be some borax and / or even sodium chloride. ??? Will keep after it.
It worked so well and I'm sure it was taken off the market because some bureaucratic mental midget saw the "cyanide" portion of the chemical name and had no idea that sodium ferocyanide is not only NOT poisonous but they put it in table salt as an anti caking agent.
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I have been using potassium ferro cyanide for 55 years. Works great . I think you can buy it on Ebay. Make sure it is not FERRI cyanide. It must be FERRO cyanide. The ferro cyanide will not poison you.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Potassium-Ferrocyanide-Trihydrate-500-Grams/183719831149?epid=2301624593&hash=item2ac68e266d:g:BUwAAOSwXIFcgYei
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Thanks Jerry!!! Do you use it the same way you use Kasenit? Heat, dip, reheat, quench?
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When I lived in Denver I was friends with Ron Long. I remember him hardening a frizzen for me. He used Kasenit. His technique was to hold the frizzen with a pair of pliers so the face of the frizzen was face up and horizontal, he then heated the frizzen from below with a torch when the frizzen started to glow he would sprinkle on the Kasenit with a spoon, he kept the frizzen glowing and as the Kasenit bubbled down he would sprinkle on more Kasenit. He did that four or five times. He then quenched it in water. It turned out glass hard and the he tempered the frizzen up the the bottom of the frizzen. I do not recall how much scale was left but I just polished out the frizzen as I would do to any othe metal part. I remember that I never had any problem getting a shower of sparks and never had cut through the case hardening even after thousands of shots. I hope this helps.
Cheers Richard
Richard
Do you know how or what temperature/color he tempered his frizzen? I have Kasenit and will need to harden a frizzen in the not to distant future and would like to try his way of hardening my frizzen.
Dennis
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Dennis, I don’t know what the temperature was but it was not a bright red, more of a dull red. I wish I could be more specific, but this happened over 40 years ago.
Good luck Dennis.
Cheers Richard
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When I lived in Denver I was friends with Ron Long. I remember him hardening a frizzen for me. He used Kasenit. His technique was to hold the frizzen with a pair of pliers so the face of the frizzen was face up and horizontal, he then heated the frizzen from below with a torch when the frizzen started to glow he would sprinkle on the Kasenit with a spoon, he kept the frizzen glowing and as the Kasenit bubbled down he would sprinkle on more Kasenit. He did that four or five times. He then quenched it in water. It turned out glass hard and the he tempered the frizzen up the the bottom of the frizzen. I do not recall how much scale was left but I just polished out the frizzen as I would do to any othe metal part. I remember that I never had any problem getting a shower of sparks and never had cut through the case hardening even after thousands of shots. I hope this helps.
Cheers Richard
Richard
Do you know how or what temperature/color he tempered his frizzen? I have Kasenit and will need to harden a frizzen in the not to distant future and would like to try his way of hardening my frizzen.
Dennis
Dennis,
This is the same method I used to harden a frizzen and when I got it out of the oil
I cleaned and polished it and using a fine tip propane torch I held the flame in one
position at the tip of the frizzen and watched the color change until it went to a straw color where the
pan cover and the frizzen joined and then dropped it back into the oil can to cool a bit faster than open air cooling.
Get it back out and wipe it dry,install it on the lock and see what it will do.Ihave used this method for uver 50
years and no reported breakage and good fire.
Bob Roller
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Greetings, Davec2 thanks for the headsup for laballey.com, ordered some today. Thanks, Hank
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Thanks Jerry!!! Do you use it the same way you use Kasenit? Heat, dip, reheat, quench?
It is used exactly like Kasenite even smells the same.
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Below is a PDF on 8620 steel. It is the steel that Jim Chambers locks are made of. After reading this paper my thoughts are that using Ron Longs method of hardening the frizzen would work but quenching in oil instead of water, then tempering the whole frizzen at 300 degrees F. For one hour. 8620 still retains a very hard surface even after the tempering. It appears 8620 is a very tough and strong steel, and ideal for frizzens or any other parts that you wish to case harden for wear, color or both
I would appreciate hearing from Davec2 on this and his take on the paper.
Cheers Richard
http://files.engineering.com/download.aspx?folder=c3fece06-0ef1-4df1-954e-36a2fdab1670&file=Mechanical_Properties_and_Hardenability.pdf
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Richard,
I think either Jim Chambers or Jim Kibler could provide better information about the use of 8620 steel for lock parts. 8620 has excellent properties and can be hardened in and of itself (without any additional "case" diffusion of carbon into the surface). However, I have mentioned in other posts, that when attempting to re-harden frizzens that I had annealed to engrave (and that I believe some were cast out of 8620), I have never been successful following the instructions, as an example, provided by Jim Chambers. I am not questioning their correctness, it's just that despite my best efforts they have never worked for me. I have used every available option for heating.....torch, forge, electric furnace with carbon pack, etc.....but a quench in even the correct heat treating oil (as recommended) has never resulted in a frizzen hard enough to produce sparks. The only way I have been able to get an annealed frizzen back in commission has been to torch heat to a bright red, apply Kasenit to the face, and then quench in brine. I know that there is a risk of cracking the part with a quench that fast, but I have never broken one yet and it works every time. Part of the problem may be that in following the recommended procedure I am somehow depleting the surface of the part of carbon and it takes the Kasenit treatment to restore it. I'm not sure but would welcome any information about how to do this better.
As I said, Jim and Jim, are undoubtedly in a much better position to comment since they are in the business of making locks professionally and I have never had a lock from either that was not top notch. Jim Kibler's frizzens are cast of 1095 steel. Jim Chamber's may be of 8620. Will see if either one can add a comment.
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The Chet Shoults locks had 8620 for all the parts and I have made a lot of them and Kasenit
was used on all the frizzens.I made my own mechanisms from 1144-01 and 1075 and about a year
ago I reconditioned a frizzen on a lock that was obviously used hard.
Later and for reasons I forget I had enough parts made for 100 Nock style locks and had the frizzens cast
from 52-100 which is a ball and roller bearing material.I examined Helmut Mohr's personal target pistol
about 3 years ago and it had been shot for 40 years in European competition and the frizzen was still in
good shape.I used Kasenit on all of these and quenched in oil and so far after all these years no problems reported
Bill Cox at L&R told me he started using 52-100 and wished he had done it sooner.I am no longer making locks
of any kind and care not about who uses what and can only tell what I know from long experience.
Bob Roller
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Dave, Jim Chambers told me directly that his parts are cast from 8620. Did you anneal then harden both Jim’s frizzens? Doing some homework on the two steels mentioned, what follows are just thoughts...As you say brine quenching is pretty severe. I think that quenching a 1095 steel part in a 10%. Solution brine at room temp would produce a very hard steel by itself without the need for Kasenit, the downside would be its prone to crack in a brine quench because of its high carbon content, additionally all parts except the frizzen proper would need to be drawn back to prevent cracking and failure in use. On the other hand 8620 would need the addition of carbon, ( as it does not have as much carbon as 1095...i.e. ..20 to ..95) to reach the hardness needed for a frizzen. Quenching in brine like Dave mentioned may work very well as it is a tough steel and the core is not as hard as the surface. It may be for 8620 you might not need to draw any part of the frizzen back because of the relatively soft core and no addition of Kasenit to other than the face of the frizzen
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8620 will not harden sufficiently for use as a frizzen It only contains .18% carbon and is basically the same as 1018 mild steel with the addition of other additives. it also contains chrome which is not good for producing sparks. see - https://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/8620.asp#Spec
it is an excellent steel for case hardening. and is used for many of the parts in reproduction sharps rifles.
I don't think chambers uses it for frizzens.
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I have a local chemical supply company that likely has the potassium forro cyanide. I will have to check. Thats where I get my “aqua fortis”. You have to show them a business license to purchase. I was too dense the first time to understand what the salesman was trying to do to help me on price. He kept asking if I was going to transport my purchase in a motor vehicle. I said of course. Then I have to package it for hazardous material he said. The cost of the packaging was more than the chemicals.
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Jerry, you missed this sentence written earlier. “...Jim Chambers told me directly that his parts are cast from 8620. ”
Richard
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Jerry, you missed this sentence written earlier. “...Jim Chambers told me directly that his parts are cast from 8620. ”
Richard
That may be for some parts but not all. For example [the springs] also maybe the frizzens. I have mad a hindred or so locks cast out of mild steel but the springs and the frizzens were 1095. It doesn't make sense to have frizzens cast from 8620 when they need to be hardened. Not saying your wrong just saying maybe not all.
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Jerry, wouldn’t any frizzen need to be hardened no matter what alloy it was made from? Or am I missing something?
Cheers Richard
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Last I heard Chambers was using 1095 for their frizzens.
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Jerry, you missed this sentence written earlier. “...Jim Chambers told me directly that his parts are cast from 8620. ”
Richard
That may be for some parts but not all. For example [the springs] also maybe the frizzens. I have mad a hindred or so locks cast out of mild steel but the springs and the frizzens were 1095. It doesn't make sense to have frizzens cast from 8620 when they need to be hardened. Not saying your wrong just saying maybe not all.
In the late 1950's when cast steel parts started to become available there was little or
no discussion of alloys or anything else.A flintlock wasn't popular then and a number of
muzzle loaders were made from whatever parts as might be found.Old locks,some new
old stock.One of the first flintlocks was the Shoults** made in Lapeer Michigan and it used
investment cast parts for everything except the screws and the alloy was advertised as 8620.
After Chet Shoults lost control of the moulds in 1962 I made a number of these and case hardened
the frizzens,Some of these locks are still in service and I reconditioned one recently by light
grinding with a 5" wheel and then recase hardening it.The rest of the lock was still OK but
those parts were my own shop made ones and not castings.
As earlier stated the locks I made for Helmut Mohr in Germany were 52-100 and they seem to
be still working and the only one I repaced was from a pistol that was accidently dropped on
a concrete floor and landed upside down and it broke.I looked at Helmut;s personal pistol and
after 40 years it was still working well.
**Chet's lock was a Ketland without the double throated cock.I don't know about parts now
because Jerry Devaudreuil ownd the dies for this lock and other items we used for so long.
It appears that he is now in an adult dementia situation and I have no idea as to the final
fate and outcome of these dies.If anyone has any info please let all of us know.
Bob Roller
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I am glad this thread came up. I have a mostly full gallon can of Kasenit in my garage. I just went out to look at it, and the can was rotted away from the inside!
I was able to transfer the compound to a plastic container. Hope it still works ok. Last time I used it it worked great.
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Jerry, wouldn’t any frizzen need to be hardened no matter what alloy it was made from? Or am I missing something?
Cheers Richard
Yes, Any frizzen must be hardened to work properly and it must also contain a sufficient amount of carbon. It is the carbon in the steel that burns to make the sparks. Carbon is the fuel. That is why I always pack harden my frizzens even if they were made from 1095. A little extra carbon helps to promote sparks. At least that is my theory. A few years back one maker of locks cast their frizzens out of 6150. That is a medium carbon chrome steel. They didn't harden very well and did not spark very well no matter what you did to them. 8620 has chrome in it as well. The producers of 8620 say it will harden but how much is the question. It doesn't have sufficient carbon to harden. How it hardens is a mystery to me. A lot of materials are hard but will not spark. I think it must be case hardened first.
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Jerry,
I received an email from Jim Chambers, but before I posted it I cleared it with Jim. In reply to my question about frizzens he wrote this initially,“We make the steel parts out of 8620 steel. It will color case harden just fine. I don't know what alloy they use for breech plugs. I would guess it is the same as the barrel - 12L14.”
When I asked him if he minded me posting it he clarified with,
“Richard,
If they are talking about lock parts we use several different steels. Non-hardening parts like plates, cocks, pans, etc. are 8620. Springs are 6150, frizzens 1095, tumblers, sears, flys are 01. Hope this helps. Feel free to pass this on.
Jim”
I see some crows I need to shoot for supper!
Cheers Richard
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Ok....the orders came in and i am ready to start the experiment I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Here is the Brownells case hardening material and the sodium ferrocyanide.....
(https://i.ibb.co/PNTqvJf/IMG-0565.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SPQF4H9)
And here is the standard, Kasenit:
(https://i.ibb.co/pJfKCrJ/IMG-0566.jpg) (https://ibb.co/syK1LJy)
Here are two other types that I have collected along the way, Herter's Case Hardener and a 1991 Brownells version called "Hard-N-Tough"
(https://i.ibb.co/MGRZXym/IMG-0567.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3M04J5n)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xk7LTB7/IMG-0568.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3YpdHXp)
Here is what each looks like....notice that the current stuff from Brownells and the old Kasenit look similar. The Herters is all white and the old Brownells Hard-N-Tough is a dark green....?
(https://i.ibb.co/NCDcGVP/IMG-0571.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C8CRS1Z)
(https://i.ibb.co/2cJgcD2/IMG-0572.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WBCgBb9)
At any rate, I will work on this and report back results as soon as I am able. It will be about 107 here in So Cal today, so I may not even need a torch to do this... :o
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I now have most of the Kasenit that Okawbow had and it looks good and it
will be tested this week.This is a big help to me and I am thankful for this
man and his willingness to sell this material.
Bob Roller
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At any rate, I will work on this and report back results as soon as I am able. It will be about 107 here in So Cal today, so I may not even need a torch to do this... :o
Understandable, Dave. It almost got up to about 18 here today - that's 64F, but it's raining - again.
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Working on some of the chemistry issues. As noted previously, I don't have much in the way of chemical analysis capability but I did take a 2.0 gram sample of Kasenit and dissolve it in water and then filtered out anything that wasn't water soluble.
(https://i.ibb.co/RvpCwzk/IMG-0648.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NV6LBZd)
Everything in it dissolved except this......0.145 grams of what looks to be carbon powder. Makes sense. So, carbon = ~7.2%, MSDS says the sodium ferrocyanide is ~ 47%, that covers ~54% of the total. Will try to sort out what the other 46% is... ;)
(https://i.ibb.co/zS23ZJF/IMG-0649.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LCgT15r)
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Do not mix Kasenit in with Brownells or Cherry Red. The couple percent potassium nitrate in Brownells/Cherry Red will react with the charcoal (all that black stuff) in Kasenit to make carbon dioxide & carbon monoxide. Whatever else might be in these two “hardening compounds Lord only knows. Betcha they’re not so compatible with sodium ferrocyanide.
One MUST get carbon into the surface of the hot steel in order to “case-harden” it. Complete waste to burn up all that carbon.
The Kasenit Material Safety Data Sheet says it is 46% Sodium ferrocyanide. A.k.a. yellow Prussiate of Soda; Na4Fe(CN)6 . Don’t worry about the “decahydrate” part, that just means that ten molecules of water are kinda bound to the ferroyanide.
I did once make up my own “Kasenit”, using about half sodium ferrocyanide mixed with some manner of real charcoal. Not charcoal briquettes, they contain pitch coke, i.e., sulfur. I probably added a pinch or so of salt just to clean up the steel (at red heat, mind you). This is not for color case hardening, that is another subject.
As the metallurgist at a specialty metals (high temperature stuff) supplier, I got to spend some time with the guys at Nicholson File, in Ancient Times when they actually made their own files in the U.S.A. Until recent decades when our EPA became overly concerned, Nicholson’s practice was to coat high carbon steel files with a mixture roughly similar to Kasenite before hardening from a protective molten lead bath. They called it “cyanide loaf”. It was potassium ferrocyanide, K4Fe(CN)6, mixed with flour and bone black, and all are boiled together in salt water.
On a positive note in this election year. Our Gov’t allows “yellow prussiate of soda” to be used as an anti-caking agent in that nice, healthy sea-salt Mom picks up from the grocery store. However, Nicholson File was forbidden to use it in file making because it is dangerous.
I just wonder how many of you ever sprinkled Kasenit on your baked potato?
Anyway, in my personal experience, this sort of Wisdom from Our Gov’t is common to both parties. Whichever Fine Man wins in Nov, we’ll all get to put up with the same level of competence out of DC.
I learned chemistry in my early teens, trying to make black gunpowder using my new chemistry set. Thanks, Mom & Dad. Ended up getting the ingredients at the drug store. In those Bad Old Days one could get drug store stuff to blow one’s hand clear off.
Black powder goes BOOM basically because it contains 75% potassium nitrate (a.k.a. salt peter, KNO3) which turns the charcoal into hot gas, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. Hot gas takes up a lot more space than does cold gas, which = BOOM I learned more in college, and more through a few decades as a metallurgist, working in nasty high temperature (loved it) environments.
Get thee some sodium ferrocyanide decahydrate, and real wood charcoal, or bone charcoal if you prefer, and go to it. I still think a pinch of salt does a more thorough job. It will not be pretty and colored, though. Just hard.
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JCKelly,
Thanks for the post. Yes "hard" is all I'm after in this particular case. I think the sodium or potassium ferrocyanide will do the job alone (as JerryWH does) with the required carbon and nitrogen coming from the included C-N triple bond. And in keeping with your thought about salt in the mix, I know that some of the other case hardening compounds include ammonium chloride rather than sodium chloride. Will keep you posted.....
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davec2 - I'd still add the charcoal, as in Kasenit and "Cyanide Loaf"
You will want carbon in the steel.
Nitrogen is good to resist sliding wear, at the expense of ductility.
I would say that carbon is definitely preferred for a frizzen. Frizzen steel needs to be reasonably hard, but also ductile enough for the flint to shave off a little curly ribbon - "frizzle" of steel.
You really want to reinvent the process?
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I have never been successful following the instructions, as an example, provided by Jim Chambers. I am not questioning their correctness, it's just that despite my best efforts they have never worked for me. I have used every available option for heating.....torch, forge, electric furnace with carbon pack, etc.....but a quench in even the correct heat treating oil (as recommended) has never resulted in a frizzen hard enough to produce sparks. The only way I have been able to get an annealed frizzen back in commission has been to torch heat to a bright red, apply Kasenit to the face, and then quench in brine. I know that there is a risk of cracking the part with a quench that fast, but I have never broken one yet and it works every time.
I have never been able to get anything sufficiently hard with any kind of oil quench either.
Kasenit, globbed on heavy, held at heat for as long as I can stand it, quench in dirty shop water. POP! And pull out a nicely hardened frizzen. No cracks. No problems. And no nasty oily goo to have to clean off of it. Draw down the temper and it's good to go.
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I finally felt well enough to try a few experiments with case hardening compounds. This is not all that scientific, but represents the way I usually harden the heads of lock bolts, top jaw screws, butt plate screw heads, etc. I started off with a few 16 penny common nails.
(https://i.ibb.co/PtPgGLj/IMG-0829.jpg) (https://ibb.co/25Cd39h)
I heated each nail head in a propane torch flame until it was bright red
(https://i.ibb.co/S7YwtjM/IMG-0831.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jZ0kyNQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/L1sdQzL/IMG-0832.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7K0tgJw)
I then dipped the nail head once in each hardening compound followed by a short re-heat and a second dip. Once the nail head was thickly coated with the compound, I heated the head continuously for exactly one minute (on a timer).
(https://i.ibb.co/Z2zCPT7/IMG-0833.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8YgVp8t)
After a full 60 seconds of heating, I quenched the head in room temperature salt water. After a quick run against a wire wheel, all the nail heads came out looking like this....
(https://i.ibb.co/d6T6HpZ/IMG-0830.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DkJkjMd)
(https://i.ibb.co/KzVMyNZ/IMG-0836.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pr4tXWD)
(https://i.ibb.co/89vzPZc/IMG-0835.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BBW4TMN)
Results: After hardening the heads on all 5 nails, I did a quick clean up on the wire wheels and then a quick file test on the edge of the head. I started with an unhardened nail and, as you would expect, the file bit easily. The hardened nails responded as follows
#1. Kasenit: As the compound is heated it melts and forms a viscus, molten ball of compound around the nail head. After the quench, the head is glass hard and a file skips off the surface leaving no mark.
#2. Brownells Hardening Compound: As the compound is heated it melts and forms a very runny thin layer of compound around the nail head. After the quench, the head is harder than it was before hardening but a file can still cut into the surface. It might get harder if you kept coating and heating, but it certainly did not harden the nail like the Kasenit did.
#3. A 50/50 mix of brownells and Sodium Ferrocyanide: As the compound is heated, it melts but forms globs that will drip off the part. After the brine quench, again, it was harder than the unhardened nail, and perhaps slightly harder than the Brownells alone, but the file bit easily and it was not as hard as the Kasenit nail.
#4. Sodium Ferrocyanide alone: As the ferrocyanide is heated it behaved differently than the others. It charred rather than melted but did form a complete, bulky coating on the nail head as it was being heated. After being quenched in the brine, it was every bit as hard as the Kasenit nail. The file test skipped over the surface without leaving a mark.
#5. Sodium Ferrocyanide + table salt, 50/50: I tried this just to see if the salt would allow the compound to melt more than the ferrocyanide alone. It did, but after the quench, the head of the nail was very hard in some spots and softer in others.
Conclusion: In the absence of being able to purchase the old Kasenit, sodium ferrocyanide seems to be a perfectly acceptable substitute. JerryWH reports that he uses potassium ferrocyanide with good success as well. I will push this a little further as I get a chance, as I would like to replicate the old Kasenit exactly, but the sodium ferrocyanide works great....and you can buy it from almost any chemical supplier.
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Great test! Thanks for sharing the results, looking forward to any new tests you perform.
Curtis
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https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/ferrocyanides-usage-applications#case-hardening-and-heat-treating
This stuff has been used fro at least 150 years.
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Jerrywh and the rest of the crew,thank you all for all the additional information.
Now that I have the real Kasenit I am at peace with the world ;D.
I am making only a few triggers each month now and Brenda's doctor appointments**
cut into the shop work more now.Also I am growing tired of shop work so after I
finish the 4 triggers I have names for I will do what Ross Dillion did and when I get
a few ready I will post them for whoever may be interested.This will apply to both
the Hawken and SMR/Ohio triggers.Also I have no plans to revive lock making and
am hoping someone will make a quality caplock of whatever style be it Hawken,Goulcher
or the fancier English Sporting/Target rifles types.
**She no longer drives so I am chauffer,
Bob Roller
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Bob, just to make sure she travels in style, get one of the older Packard or Rolls Royce phaetons with the glass divider separating chauffer from passenger. I know you are very capable at maintaining one. Maybe a Duesenberg?
So happy she is recovering well.
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Dave, thanks for your efforts and sharing the results.
Richard
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PM sent your way Dave
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Bob, just to make sure she travels in style, get one of the older Packard or Rolls Royce phaetons with the glass divider separating chauffer from passenger. I know you are very capable at maintaining one. Maybe a Duesenberg?
So happy she is recovering well.
No Rolls,Packard or Duesenberg.Only our 1997 Lincoln Town car which is still in
very good condition.I bought it at an estate sale back in 2005 and can think of
no reason to be rid of it.I would buy another one if i could find a low mileage one,
Ours is the Executive series,whatever that means.The 1997's were the last of the big and roomy sedans
and the later ones are too heavy for that 4,6 litre engine and have less interior room.
Bob Roller
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Jerry, you missed this sentence written earlier. “...Jim Chambers told me directly that his parts are cast from 8620. ”
Richard
I think his frizzens are 5160
Also note that IMO they are what ever the foundry makes them out of when they pour them. Personally I think the use of chromium alloys for frizzens is why I end up facing them with 1095 to get them to spark and I am not alone in this. Chromium does not make a good sparking steel. Nor does any additions of moly or vanadium. But they cast better that simple high carbon steels and apparently have less failures when quenched. I believe that making frizzens from 51xxx-52xx series is more for the convenience of the lock maker and not for best function. But thats just me.
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Dphariss, thanks for that info. How are you fixing the 1095 to the frizzen and hardening it? Silver solder and a quench?
Thanks Richard
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I think Kasenit and similar compounds are only good for hardening surfaces that rub against each other. Screws, bridles, tumblers, lock plates. No good for deep hardening needed on frizzens. There’s a lore out there that surface case hardening with Kasenit is the ticket for a frizzen that is too soft. Maybe it works for a minute or two. Maybe. There’s an article in the current Muzzle Blasts on it.
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Howdy all,
One of the bits about getting into this hobby that I’ve really enjoyed is the chemistry. I have a bunch of chemicals in the basement that I’ve done bluing experiments with, wood finishing experiments, and now case hardening. I have read this thread with great interest. I have a KG or so of Sodium Ferrocyanate and plan to try some different combinations to see what seems to work best. There is an article posted in this thread from a metallurgist who suggests “ one part of potassium ferrocyanide, one part of sodium chloride, and one-half part of rosin, powdered and intimately mixed”
Sound reasonable. I might add - my Original plan was Sodium Ferrocyanate, charcoal, and borax. I figure borax was the bubbly part you see with OG Kasenit. However now I’m not sure since a rosin could give a similar appearance. Well I have powdered rosin from the violin varnish experiments so I’m going to use my ball mill setup to mix sodium Ferrocyanate, Sodium Chloride, air float charcoal, rosin, and borax. TI have a bunch of A36 I can mess with. Then I’ll see if it can case harden a bit and to take it a bit further, I have a 50# bucket of chert from Flint Ridge in Ohio and I’ll see if I can get it to throw sparks. If anyone has a combo they’d like to see let me know. It’s going to be rainy today so time to mess around with the alchemy stuff.0