AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Herb on July 11, 2021, 09:10:56 PM
-
Here I am with the Hawken that Robidoux drew, from the museum in Lincoln, Nebraska.
(https://i.ibb.co/QfvVzrH/NEHawk-Her-T.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jTkYBgw)
(https://i.ibb.co/YtgYPP1/NEHawk-Lock-Area.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qR6X77c)
(https://i.ibb.co/YfHKD7f/NEHawk-Lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NWck16W)
Here are two Hawkens that Kit Carson owned, the top one is in the Masonic Lodge in Sante Fe.
(https://i.ibb.co/vZbgytm/Kit-Carson-Hawkens-cheeks-Nose-cap-cocked-locks.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wMT3GvC)
Top is a full- sized photo of the Kit Carson Hawken and bottom a copy I was making.
(https://i.ibb.co/DKQkjXT/KCand-My-Lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6sFbqhL)
-
HERB,
The pictures look good and thanks for posting them.We hope you are OK and still
making the shavings fly.
Bob Roller
-
Thanks, Bob. Whittling out another Carson Hawken now. Also playing guitar more and doing a rain dance.
-
Great rifle Herb.
-
Herb, glad to see you are still building Hawkens and the fire has not gone out.
BillinOregon on "that other forum." ;)
-
Love to see and read your posts Herb
Rob
-
Aw shucks, fellas......
-
Here I am with the Hawken that Robidoux drew, from the museum in Lincoln, Nebraska.
(https://i.ibb.co/QfvVzrH/NEHawk-Her-T.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jTkYBgw)
(https://i.ibb.co/YtgYPP1/NEHawk-Lock-Area.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qR6X77c)
(https://i.ibb.co/YfHKD7f/NEHawk-Lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NWck16W)
Here are two Hawkens that Kit Carson owned, the top one is in the Masonic Lodge in Sante Fe.
(https://i.ibb.co/vZbgytm/Kit-Carson-Hawkens-cheeks-Nose-cap-cocked-locks.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wMT3GvC)
Top is a full- sized photo of the Kit Carson Hawken and bottom a copy I was making.
Herb,
The top Carson rifle in Sante Fe was one that had the lock copied for casting and I think a man whose
name was Curt Pearson was responsible.I used a good number of these plates and hammers and Jerry Devaudreuil
sold the hammers with his number 177.I preferred my own milled plates but did use a few cast ones.
Keep up the good work.
Bob Roller
(https://i.ibb.co/DKQkjXT/KCand-My-Lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6sFbqhL)
-
Herb,
Examining the picture where yours and Bridger's are compared, the panel looks really close to the Bridger but the notch for the snail is deeper than the Bridger. Was that because of the geometry of your components? Not a criticism but an observation I am interested in the subtleties of your build. Also, I know you don't build from a plank you have said that in other posts and maybe I missed where you got the stock but I am curious was it Pecatonica? I really like how sharp you defined the panel!
Rob
-
Rob, The photo is of the Kit Carson Hawken. The Davis lock I use is close to the Hawken lock, but it is different, and that is what you see. The triggers are different, too, there is no exact match. This stock is a Pecatonica. I had them inlet it for the barrel only and drill a 7/16" rod hole, and leave the breech end of the barrel inlet cut 1/2 short to have wood up against the tang. Also, I needed 3/4" more wood on the toe line to get the correct drop at heel. I had two or maybe three cut this way. I have since built two more from a blank and that way I can very closely match the Carson stock. The LAST Bridger I built was from a shaped Knob Mountain stock, I had to cut a lot of wood away to get the Bridger shape.
(https://i.ibb.co/XjRmbn5/DSC05775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WGJS6rz)
My LAST Bridger (way too heavy), the Pecatonica stock, and a 15/16" .54 H&H barreled Carson Hawken made with a Pecatonica stock. Note he add-on line that runs to the front of the eraser.
(https://i.ibb.co/vs9mFs6/DSC06445.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SQS0jQ4)
A hard maple blank with the Carson pattern ready to saw out.
(https://i.ibb.co/b7YjLky/Stock-blank-2-Hawkens.jpg) (https://ibb.co/stcpQZD)
The sawed blanks on the Carson photo.
(https://i.ibb.co/0mFRRMT/DSC01057.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9cVkkT6)
(https://i.ibb.co/G9YvJp6/DSC06729.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ypvnRP9)
The sawed blanks with a Pecatonica stock in the middle.
(https://i.ibb.co/dQmsQgt/DSC06758.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WcVNct0)
My LAST Bridger Hawken.
(https://i.ibb.co/jf3k9cQ/DSC06725.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qjmYLtc)
-
Thanks Herb,
I appreciate the detailed response. I have used Pecatonica for a few part sets. Right now I am finishing up a full stock light Plains rifle from a parts set from Don Stith and had to move the tang slightly back to have it back on wood too. I can see the benefit of having the barrel channel cut short. I have a full stock flint parts set from Don too but I am putting off building that at the moment. When I finish the one I am working on I was thinking of tackling a Bridger Hawken.
Thanks again,
Rob
-
A left click of the mouse on a photo will bring up an enlarged picture for more detail.
-
as i'm pretty new to all of this - did the "old timers" use charges that were that heavy?
120 gr of powder seems pretty stout - and out on the frontier - maybe a little expensive per shot?
-
Thanks Herb,
Rob
-
Bridger's powder measure held about 52 grains. He probably used double charges for serious work. In our shooting contests, I use 50 grains of Goex 3F or 2F in .54 caliber. Original Hawken barrels were cut with 1 in 48 inch twists. The conventional "wisdom" is that that twist is too fast for round balls. Thus my test with 120 grains, which showed that accuracy was very good. That was my elk hunting load in years past. Later I went to 100 grains for deer and antelope hunting.
Top photo is my last Bridger Hawken, 11 1/4 pounds. Next, my first one, the barrel is 2" shorter (with the GRRW barrel I had). It has been shot a couple thousand rounds by now, hunted elk and deer. Next, my 15/16" .54 H&H barreled Carson with a Pecatonica stock. Last, a Carson Hawken made with my blank stock.
(https://i.ibb.co/fXkMXrv/Four-2-Bridgers-2-Carsons-GOOD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rQxkQ5s)
-
Herb,
Boy you can sure see the difference between the Carson and the Bridger! What did those weigh?
Rob
-
The top Bridger weighs 11 1/4 pounds, with a 1 1/8" straight taper barrel, being a very close copy of the original. The next one is the same, but has a 2" shorter barrel and weighs about 10 3/4 pounds. The bottom two Carsons have 15/16" .54 caliber barrels, and the bottom one made from my plank weighed 8 pounds 14 ounces. The upper one made with a Pecatonica stock has a little less wood, but must have weighed about the same. I can shoot these lighter rifles with an elbow rest in my ribs, but I can hardly lift that heavy Bridger onto my shooting bench. Both the Bridger and Carson rifles are made as close to the original as I can do it.
-
(https://i.ibb.co/cwNQNDY/20200118-102500-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kJhXhQm)
Thanks again Herb. Brant Selb made me a Carson .58 its the one on top the bottom one is a full stock in .50 also made by Selb. I haven't weighed the Carson but I will and post the weight.
Rob
-
(https://i.ibb.co/r7sgPS0/20200506-202007.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/Hzmds1M/20200506-202032.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Here is a picture of the butt plate and the lock panel of the Carson I have, the lock and triggers are Davis not sure about the butt plate.
Rob
-
I weighed the Selb Carson copy I have and it comes out to 10lbs exactly
Rob
-
I should have said that my Carson copies are close to the original, except I have thinner barrels, 15/16" compared to the original 1 1/16", I think it is. Thus my lock panels are narrower across by about 3/16 of an inch. I had this .54 caliber 15/16" H&H barrel that I made into a lighter rifle. The bottom barrel is a .54 15/16" Rice barrel. All my other Carsons were made with 1" barrels, usually Green River Rifle Works, .50 and .54 calibers.
-
One of the Carson locks was available from me for years and made from a plate and hammer sold by Jerry Devaudreuil in Wooster,Ohio.He is now in a nursing home.I think the gun these parts were made from was in Santa Fe and furnished by Curt Pearson.I remember that hammer was listed as G177 and I don't remember the plate number.
Herb is an icon in our avocation and I think he is about 88 and still making a good rifle. I am 85 and get tired of just thinking a rifle or even the lock.My "Get up and go has got up and gone" ;D.Keep up the great work,Herb.
Bob Roller
-
I should have said that my Carson copies are close to the original, except I have thinner barrels, 15/16" compared to the original 1 1/16", I think it is. Thus my lock panels are narrower across by about 3/16 of an inch. I had this .54 caliber 15/16" H&H barrel that I made into a lighter rifle. The bottom barrel is a .54 15/16" Rice barrel. All my other Carsons were made with 1" barrels, usually Green River Rifle Works, .50 and .54 calibers.
How many Hawken made rifles can be really traced to Carson?
Bob Roller
-
I know of two. The second one is known as the Carson Beale Hawken. An article with 14 matched color photos of both rifles can be found in the publication "Men at Arms" for December 2014. Go to www.gunandswordcollector.com and click on magazines, List of Back Issues. Scroll down to 2014, December issue, Volume 36, Number 6, Nov/Dec 2014. It is $7.95 plus $2 mailing. Here are a couple of photos from that article, the title of which is "Kit Carson's Hawken Rifles Reunited".
(https://i.ibb.co/gSG7cxb/Kit-Carson-Hawkens-right-full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1r3n4kY)
(https://i.ibb.co/RpK5TRz/Kit-Carson-Hawkens-left-full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bgVf5cz)
(https://i.ibb.co/tCVgfLc/Kit-Carson-Hawkens-locks.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mzfksNt)
(https://i.ibb.co/xg2fSqr/Kit-Carson-Hawkens-left-mid-stock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5j1nWhJ)
-
One of the Carson locks was available from me for years and made from a plate and hammer sold by Jerry Devaudreuil in Wooster,Ohio.He is now in a nursing home.I think the gun these parts were made from was in Santa Fe and furnished by Curt Pearson.I remember that hammer was listed as G177 and I don't remember the plate number.
Herb is an icon in our avocation and I think he is about 88 and still making a good rifle. I am 85 and get tired of just thinking a rifle or even the lock.My "Get up and go has got up and gone" ;D.Keep up the great work,Herb.
Bob Roller
Bob Roller reading through this you mentioned ( I think the gun these parts were made from was in Santa Fe and furnished by Curt Pearson . ) Did Curt Pearson furnish / fabricate Hawken parts back in that time ?
-
I remember buying Curt's hammer and plate from a man in Michigan and another from him furnished by a Texan,William Morgan,\It was a J&S Hawken and I used a lot of these as I did Curt's.Jerry Devaudreuil bought all the moulds from the man in Michigan and even used the name of International Arms which once attracted attention from the BATFE.It was all muzzleloading stuff so the Feds forgot about it and got back to real offenders. Jerry is now 90 and in a care facility and I talked to his sister last week and it seems that she is not really familiar with what Jerry did and will need numbers like G177 for the hammer and G304 for the J&S hammer. hve some old invoices for the EXTERNAL parts of the Chet Shoults flintlock and a fine Ketland I made a lot of for the so called "Flint Hawken" full stock rifles.I never used ANY cast internal parts because none of them came near ny ideas on quality.I won't do "Good Enough".
Getting back to our original question,I don't know if Curt offered all the hardware needed for a Hawken ot not.Ditto for the Morgan parts.
I am no longer making locks for anything and probably will not revive them.Now at 85 I have no interest other than the few triggers I now make on an off and on basis.
Bob Roller
-
Thank you for your reply Bob. I ran across the name Curt Thure Pearson doing some research on Hawken rifles a while back and knew he had an interest in the study of Hawken rifles way back when . Don't hear his name very much and surprised to see it in your post . Again Thanks Bob .
-
It is so interesting to know how the Hawken Bros. went from making a full stock rifle in Maryland to creating what is essentially an English Sporting Rifle in St. Louis.
Has anyone tried to make the choked bore they were known for?
-
It is so interesting to know how the Hawken Bros. went from making a full stock rifle in Maryland to creating what is essentially an English Sporting Rifle in St. Louis.
Has anyone tried to make the choked bore they were known for?
It's too bad THEY changed the stock design so much.
The certainly did not improve it. Perhaps made it more robust, though. ;D
-
It is so interesting to know how the Hawken Bros. went from making a full stock rifle in Maryland to creating what is essentially an English Sporting Rifle in St. Louis.
Has anyone tried to make the choked bore they were known for?
They bear no real resemblance to an English sporting rifle other than possibly the big bore.
Bill Large,now long deceased made choked barrels on request.I made a lot of locks for them
that went beyond the quality used in St.Louis back in that day. The last one I made was in March
of 2019 and it had a copy of an English Stanton 3 pin mechanism.It went to Texas.
Bob Roller