Author Topic: Herbs Hawken (Read 6253 times)

Herb · « **on:** July 11, 2021, 09:10:56 PM »

Here I am with the Hawken that Robidoux drew, from the museum in Lincoln, Nebraska.

Here are two Hawkens that Kit Carson owned, the top one is in the Masonic Lodge in Sante Fe.

Top is a full- sized photo of the Kit Carson Hawken and bottom a copy I was making.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2021, 01:03:46 AM »

HERB,
The pictures look good and thanks for posting them.We hope you are OK and still
making the shavings fly.
Bob Roller

Herb · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2021, 07:36:33 AM »

Thanks, Bob. Whittling out another Carson Hawken now. Also playing guitar more and doing a rain dance.

bama · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2021, 04:36:40 PM »

Great rifle Herb.

Badenpowell · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2021, 05:13:57 PM »

Herb, glad to see you are still building Hawkens and the fire has not gone out.
BillinOregon on "that other forum."

borderdogs · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2021, 09:59:07 PM »

Love to see and read your posts Herb
Rob

Herb · « **Reply #6 on:** July 13, 2021, 04:29:53 PM »

Aw shucks, fellas......

Bob Roller · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2021, 06:03:16 PM »

Quote from: Herb on July 11, 2021, 09:10:56 PM

Here I am with the Hawken that Robidoux drew, from the museum in Lincoln, Nebraska.

Here are two Hawkens that Kit Carson owned, the top one is in the Masonic Lodge in Sante Fe.

Top is a full- sized photo of the Kit Carson Hawken and bottom a copy I was making.

Herb,
The top Carson rifle in Sante Fe was one that had the lock copied for casting and I think a man whose
name was Curt Pearson was responsible.I used a good number of these plates and hammers and Jerry Devaudreuil
sold the hammers with his number 177.I preferred my own milled plates but did use a few cast ones.
Keep up the good work.
Bob Roller

borderdogs · « **Reply #8 on:** August 02, 2021, 01:51:32 AM »

Herb,
Examining the picture where yours and Bridger's are compared, the panel looks really close to the Bridger but the notch for the snail is deeper than the Bridger. Was that because of the geometry of your components? Not a criticism but an observation I am interested in the subtleties of your build. Also, I know you don't build from a plank you have said that in other posts and maybe I missed where you got the stock but I am curious was it Pecatonica? I really like how sharp you defined the panel!
Rob

Herb · « **Reply #9 on:** August 02, 2021, 07:40:10 AM »

Rob, The photo is of the Kit Carson Hawken. The Davis lock I use is close to the Hawken lock, but it is different, and that is what you see. The triggers are different, too, there is no exact match. This stock is a Pecatonica. I had them inlet it for the barrel only and drill a 7/16" rod hole, and leave the breech end of the barrel inlet cut 1/2 short to have wood up against the tang. Also, I needed 3/4" more wood on the toe line to get the correct drop at heel. I had two or maybe three cut this way. I have since built two more from a blank and that way I can very closely match the Carson stock. The LAST Bridger I built was from a shaped Knob Mountain stock, I had to cut a lot of wood away to get the Bridger shape.

My LAST Bridger (way too heavy), the Pecatonica stock, and a 15/16" .54 H&H barreled Carson Hawken made with a Pecatonica stock. Note he add-on line that runs to the front of the eraser.

A hard maple blank with the Carson pattern ready to saw out.

The sawed blanks on the Carson photo.

The sawed blanks with a Pecatonica stock in the middle.

My LAST Bridger Hawken.

borderdogs · « **Reply #10 on:** August 02, 2021, 04:27:11 PM »

Thanks Herb,
I appreciate the detailed response. I have used Pecatonica for a few part sets. Right now I am finishing up a full stock light Plains rifle from a parts set from Don Stith and had to move the tang slightly back to have it back on wood too. I can see the benefit of having the barrel channel cut short. I have a full stock flint parts set from Don too but I am putting off building that at the moment. When I finish the one I am working on I was thinking of tackling a Bridger Hawken.
Thanks again,
Rob

Herb · « **Reply #11 on:** August 02, 2021, 04:45:31 PM »

A left click of the mouse on a photo will bring up an enlarged picture for more detail.

rkcohen · « **Reply #12 on:** August 02, 2021, 05:49:08 PM »

as i'm pretty new to all of this - did the "old timers" use charges that were that heavy?

120 gr of powder seems pretty stout - and out on the frontier - maybe a little expensive per shot?

borderdogs · « **Reply #13 on:** August 02, 2021, 06:08:54 PM »

Thanks Herb,
Rob

Herb · « **Reply #14 on:** August 02, 2021, 10:24:37 PM »

Bridger's powder measure held about 52 grains. He probably used double charges for serious work. In our shooting contests, I use 50 grains of Goex 3F or 2F in .54 caliber. Original Hawken barrels were cut with 1 in 48 inch twists. The conventional "wisdom" is that that twist is too fast for round balls. Thus my test with 120 grains, which showed that accuracy was very good. That was my elk hunting load in years past. Later I went to 100 grains for deer and antelope hunting.
Top photo is my last Bridger Hawken, 11 1/4 pounds. Next, my first one, the barrel is 2" shorter (with the GRRW barrel I had). It has been shot a couple thousand rounds by now, hunted elk and deer. Next, my 15/16" .54 H&H barreled Carson with a Pecatonica stock. Last, a Carson Hawken made with my blank stock.

borderdogs · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2021, 02:38:57 AM »

Herb,
Boy you can sure see the difference between the Carson and the Bridger! What did those weigh?
Rob

Herb · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2021, 04:34:39 AM »

The top Bridger weighs 11 1/4 pounds, with a 1 1/8" straight taper barrel, being a very close copy of the original. The next one is the same, but has a 2" shorter barrel and weighs about 10 3/4 pounds. The bottom two Carsons have 15/16" .54 caliber barrels, and the bottom one made from my plank weighed 8 pounds 14 ounces. The upper one made with a Pecatonica stock has a little less wood, but must have weighed about the same. I can shoot these lighter rifles with an elbow rest in my ribs, but I can hardly lift that heavy Bridger onto my shooting bench. Both the Bridger and Carson rifles are made as close to the original as I can do it.

borderdogs · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2021, 05:27:26 AM »

Thanks again Herb. Brant Selb made me a Carson .58 its the one on top the bottom one is a full stock in .50 also made by Selb. I haven't weighed the Carson but I will and post the weight.
Rob

borderdogs · « **Reply #18 on:** August 03, 2021, 05:44:28 AM »

Here is a picture of the butt plate and the lock panel of the Carson I have, the lock and triggers are Davis not sure about the butt plate.
Rob

borderdogs · « **Reply #19 on:** August 03, 2021, 03:08:37 PM »

I weighed the Selb Carson copy I have and it comes out to 10lbs exactly
Rob

Herb · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2021, 07:21:45 AM »

I should have said that my Carson copies are close to the original, except I have thinner barrels, 15/16" compared to the original 1 1/16", I think it is. Thus my lock panels are narrower across by about 3/16 of an inch. I had this .54 caliber 15/16" H&H barrel that I made into a lighter rifle. The bottom barrel is a .54 15/16" Rice barrel. All my other Carsons were made with 1" barrels, usually Green River Rifle Works, .50 and .54 calibers.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2021, 02:59:33 PM »

One of the Carson locks was available from me for years and made from a plate and hammer sold by Jerry Devaudreuil in Wooster,Ohio.He is now in a nursing home.I think the gun these parts were made from was in Santa Fe and furnished by Curt Pearson.I remember that hammer was listed as G177 and I don't remember the plate number.
Herb is an icon in our avocation and I think he is about 88 and still making a good rifle. I am 85 and get tired of just thinking a rifle or even the lock.My "Get up and go has got up and gone"

.Keep up the great work,Herb.
Bob Roller

Bob Roller · « **Reply #22 on:** August 04, 2021, 07:28:51 PM »

Quote from: Herb on August 04, 2021, 07:21:45 AM

I should have said that my Carson copies are close to the original, except I have thinner barrels, 15/16" compared to the original 1 1/16", I think it is. Thus my lock panels are narrower across by about 3/16 of an inch. I had this .54 caliber 15/16" H&H barrel that I made into a lighter rifle. The bottom barrel is a .54 15/16" Rice barrel. All my other Carsons were made with 1" barrels, usually Green River Rifle Works, .50 and .54 calibers.

How many Hawken made rifles can be really traced to Carson?
Bob Roller

Herb · « **Reply #23 on:** August 05, 2021, 09:41:49 PM »

I know of two. The second one is known as the Carson Beale Hawken. An article with 14 matched color photos of both rifles can be found in the publication "Men at Arms" for December 2014. Go to www.gunandswordcollector.com and click on magazines, List of Back Issues. Scroll down to 2014, December issue, Volume 36, Number 6, Nov/Dec 2014. It is $7.95 plus $2 mailing. Here are a couple of photos from that article, the title of which is "Kit Carson's Hawken Rifles Reunited".

Ron Wehmeyer · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2021, 02:42:06 PM »

Quote from: Bob Roller on August 04, 2021, 02:59:33 PM

One of the Carson locks was available from me for years and made from a plate and hammer sold by Jerry Devaudreuil in Wooster,Ohio.He is now in a nursing home.I think the gun these parts were made from was in Santa Fe and furnished by Curt Pearson.I remember that hammer was listed as G177 and I don't remember the plate number.
Herb is an icon in our avocation and I think he is about 88 and still making a good rifle. I am 85 and get tired of just thinking a rifle or even the lock.My "Get up and go has got up and gone" .Keep up the great work,Herb.
Bob Roller

Bob Roller reading through this you mentioned ( I think the gun these parts were made from was in Santa Fe and furnished by Curt Pearson . ) Did Curt Pearson furnish / fabricate Hawken parts back in that time ?

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Author Topic: Herbs Hawken (Read 6253 times)