AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: lexington1 on August 05, 2021, 07:42:02 PM
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On page 146 of George Shumway's Longrifle Articles published in Muzzle Blasts 1965-2001, Vol. 2, is an early rifle. What are your ideas on this rifle? I'm not interested in the 'J Fenimore Cooper' inscribed on the buttplate, but what of it overall? American or German? George mentions that it has an American Maple stock. Just throwing it out there for discussion. Does anyone know of a better set of pictures for it? I would love to see the cheekpiece side of it.
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For those of us that are new to longrifles and do not have Shumway's book, can you post some pictures?
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I don’t have a full length view. Might be made here; might be made there. It looks more like fruitwood to me.
(https://i.ibb.co/cg1sJRR/973975-DF-1571-4-D2-A-AAC7-B796-FA87-F196.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Dczq11)
(https://i.ibb.co/YcC7yD4/204-EFF4-F-2-E34-4-CB6-8-CAF-103002-F2764-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5r0WnYX)
(https://i.ibb.co/prQjNFY/ED36-E72-E-CF87-498-E-BA1-F-5-AFEFAEEF486.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BKG2vM0)
(https://i.ibb.co/pxY590r/2-CE18-EA3-0-EED-4867-A700-1-CA3-BE43-B18-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wR5jx0r)
(https://i.ibb.co/tpf9Ld0/9-F02-FDCC-817-E-4074-84-EF-23-F536-D6-C370.jpg) (https://ibb.co/60hkXdK)
(https://i.ibb.co/t4FQB3q/8-A7-F8330-F2-CE-4-F0-D-B5-E3-EE03-BB5-A1147.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g3hmy6S)
(https://i.ibb.co/yyRvnQZ/0-D8-E4151-DC63-4297-BEBF-23627-F4672-E3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xs40ZCK)
(https://i.ibb.co/mDtgKVz/870-F8977-31-F9-40-E6-BD23-A2-E581-E7998-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DVkTFHK)
(https://i.ibb.co/jZNkGWF/A02551-DF-1-BD7-4125-A560-669-B928315-CE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bR05L2n)
(https://i.ibb.co/fCP7w1w/20-D4-F5-A3-9-CF5-4-B3-D-973-D-D4667465-FDCD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SK9pCsC)
(https://i.ibb.co/yWF4TSZ/EAD21-E51-7-DD9-4-EBC-8-A13-1284-EB4-F6-A78.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jgkJKRQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/7rFm1Q2/3254-C188-4078-4-C7-C-BFE3-65-B12-D1951-C9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1RxWmM8)
(https://i.ibb.co/yd9rsRC/1-C9-CA2-E9-D460-483-D-A2-C2-96132-ADF5-C6-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fqgs0SW)
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Thanks Rich, I've only seen black and white's of it. Interesting
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Awesome Rich! Thank you very much.
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I definitely agree with Rich in that I don't think it's maple either. Also I think it's most likely European but probably has been used here for a long time, although there are certainly examples of German rifles that never left Germany that are also very beat up. But I highly doubt this one is American.
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You wouldn't happen to have a pic of the sideplate would you?
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There is no sideplate. Instead it has some carving there. Sorry for photo quality. These were taken at a show where it wasn’t convenient to lay it out and take my time.
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To me that rifle screams European made. I ain't no expert and could be wrong though.
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an earlier thread that has both the side opposite the lock (no side plate) and full length photo
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=51348.0
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Thanks for pointing out the earlier thread. I didn't realize that the added(?) carving was so crude when looking at the black and white pictures in Shumways article. Kind of a neat old gun, but would have been nice to see it in it's original state.
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Yes it has been discussed previously - maybe here or maybe not - that portions of the carving may be later additions, perhaps when the silly buttplate engraving was added? But there is really no way to prove this yes or no, as Americans certainly do not hold a patent on cruder carving and there are numerous European pieces extant with similarly crude (not sure if crude is the right word, I actually like it) carving. May not really be a way to tell at this point as the piece is so worn and clearly has been refinished and slicked up multiple times.
I do really like the scale of it - love those huge honking breeches.
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I actually like the carving other than where the sideplate normally would be.
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Americans certainly do not hold a patent on cruder carving and there are numerous European pieces extant with similarly crude (not sure if crude is the right word, I actually like it) carving.
This is for anybody who would like to respond.
As I am not an art connoisseur by any means, I would be interested in learning what are the criteria for acceptable carving on longrifles. Please provide examples, if feasible with your thoughts.
I'm not trying to be clever, I want to understand.
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What do you mean by "acceptable?" Are you approaching it from the perspective of perceived quality of execution, i.e. a professionally trained carver vs. some kid with a hammer and a nail, or the perspective of design and/or subject?
Or both?
Let me just say, I find pretty much any antique acceptable, regardless of either criteria!
I do not use the term "crude" in this thread as a derogatory term, at least not to my mind. Perhaps I should say "less professional?"
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Let me just say, I find pretty much any antique acceptable, regardless of either criteria!
I do not use the term "crude" in this thread as a derogatory term, at least not to my mind. Perhaps I should say "less professional?"
Thanks Eric, for your thoughts, appreciate it.
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Regarding carving, I guess it falls into many categories. Simple, folksy, and sophisticated can describe style. Then execution (which could include layout and flow) can be somewhere in the crude to outstanding scale.
Compare. Sophistication varies on these but I find all attractive.
(https://i.ibb.co/C6xfnvy/652529-D8-6315-4833-A2-E4-E0-F287-D0-ED75.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VxXsvDG)
(https://i.ibb.co/Kr9TNrM/23119-D8-C-0-AF1-4-DC0-8807-D1-D22-DBAF618.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rwZDbwC)
(https://i.ibb.co/JKfDSpN/9-AD26286-895-F-43-D2-B5-B5-B04-E9-A0-ABAE0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FKSRdY9)
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Regarding carving, I guess it falls into many categories. Simple, folksy, and sophisticated can describe style. Then execution (which could include layout and flow) can be somewhere in the crude to outstanding scale.
Rich,
I guess with anything "artistic", it is pretty subjective.
I'm one of those oddballs in the longrifle collecting hobby that view all of the carving of the stocks as superfluous and not really, in my narrow view, important to the purpose of a rifle. From what I've read in the longrifle books I have, is that, in the case of rifles made in N. America, most all of the carving was performed in a somewhat narrow time period. After which it fell out of favor and no longer a selling point.
I think that "selling point" may be the crux of the matter, as building rifles was a business.
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From what I've read in the longrifle books I have, is that, in the case of rifles made in N. America, most all of the carving was performed in a somewhat narrow time period. After which it fell out of favor and no longer a selling point.
I think that "selling point" may be the crux of the matter, as building rifles was a business.
Perhaps it is best if I use Kindig's explanation of the "artistic" rifles that appear after the Rev War to put this in focus.
On pages 30 and 31 of Kindig's book, is his explanation of how and why the Golden Age rifle, with all of the carving, was developed.
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From what I've read in the longrifle books I have, is that, in the case of rifles made in N. America, most all of the carving was performed in a somewhat narrow time period. After which it fell out of favor and no longer a selling point.
I think that "selling point" may be the crux of the matter, as building rifles was a business.
Perhaps it is best if I use Kindig's explanation of the "artistic" rifles that appear after the Rev War to put this in focus.
On pages 30 and 31 of Kindig's book, is his explanation of how and why the Golden Age rifle, with all of the carving, was developed.
That book is quite dated at this point in history.
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That book is quite dated at this point in history.
Good point Mike, but in my opinion, Kindig's thoughts are still applicable in many ways as the evolution of firearms has pretty much been market driven since the beginning of arms availability for civilians. Which is why there are "black guns" in profusion these days.
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I don’t have a full length view. Might be made here; might be made there. It looks more like fruitwood to me.
(https://i.ibb.co/Q845hr9/Screenshot-2024-03-13-at-16-56-01-Home-Morphy-Auctions.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PTdSJwx)
see Morphy's at https://morphyauctions.com/auctions/past-auctions/firearms-militaria-8/ (https://morphyauctions.com/auctions/past-auctions/firearms-militaria-8/)
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Backsplash, is this upcoming or a part auction? Year, month? Thanks!
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Backsplash, is this upcoming or a part auction? Year, month? Thanks!
Rich,
It is in the three day auction that is coming up on May 8-10 2024 that I linked above. The image I posted was just in the Morphy ad for that upcoming auction in the latest issue of Man At Arms. Looks like the catalog isn't live yet, but decent images should be online soon, in addition to the great detail shots you graciously shared above.
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I had a chance to look at this rifle a few weeks ago. It's a really cool gun, and I would say without a doubt it's German. It's kind of funny to me that it has J Fenimore Cooper engraved on the butt, because this is exactly the type of a rifle that I could imagine Hawkeye carrying, American made or German.
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I’ve seen it several times. It has some oddball features like some carving where the side plate should be. Nice architecture and a nice inspiration for an early build.
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Also found in:
The American Tradition
The Journal Of The Contemporary Longrifle Association
2022
Volume 14 No. 1
Fall 2022
Pg(s). 8 - 13
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more images are up here https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AN_IMPORTANT_DOCUMENTED_HISTORIC_EARLY_FLINTLO-LOT598497.aspx (https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AN_IMPORTANT_DOCUMENTED_HISTORIC_EARLY_FLINTLO-LOT598497.aspx)
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I can believe it was made here by an early German immigrant. Soon, it will be the pinnacle of somebody's collection. I have always loved that rifle.
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I don't think it's American at all.
Maybe whoever owns it now can actually test the wood, but that does not look like maple to me. George, unfortunately, as nice a guy as he was, believed a lot of things he was told by owners without question.
I think this is simply another heavily-used European rifle that may have a somewhat long American history but was not made here. And there are a lot of them.
The Cooper engraving is just silly and probably dates to the late 19th or early 20th century.
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The font of the inscription is the style I'd expect on a late 19th or early 20th century dime novel's cover or an early movie poster. It is definitely a very interesting rifle. I'd be interested in reading more of the historical information with it regardless of the specifics of who made it when and when that inscription was added.
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Not a lot has been written about it except for a Muzzke Blasts article by George Shumway.
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more images are up here https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AN_IMPORTANT_DOCUMENTED_HISTORIC_EARLY_FLINTLO-LOT598497.aspx (https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AN_IMPORTANT_DOCUMENTED_HISTORIC_EARLY_FLINTLO-LOT598497.aspx)
I find the following sentence from Morphy's description interesting: "This rifle is as found and shows heavy use, consistent with having been used over a long period of time in multiple wars."
Where did the describer get this piece of intelligence from?
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more images are up here https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AN_IMPORTANT_DOCUMENTED_HISTORIC_EARLY_FLINTLO-LOT598497.aspx (https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AN_IMPORTANT_DOCUMENTED_HISTORIC_EARLY_FLINTLO-LOT598497.aspx)
I find the following sentence from Morphy's description interesting: "This rifle is as found and shows heavy use, consistent with having been used over a long period of time in multiple wars."
Where did the describer get this piece of intelligence from?
I’m with it as far as heavy use is concerned. There are always wars it seems, but it being used IN wars would be a presumption, methinks. But, it’s not egregious in my view compared to things written in the past (Wolfgang Haga attributions come to mind).
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more images are up here https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AN_IMPORTANT_DOCUMENTED_HISTORIC_EARLY_FLINTLO-LOT598497.aspx (https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__AN_IMPORTANT_DOCUMENTED_HISTORIC_EARLY_FLINTLO-LOT598497.aspx)
I find the following sentence from Morphy's description interesting: "This rifle is as found and shows heavy use, consistent with having been used over a long period of time in multiple wars."
Where did the describer get this piece of intelligence from?
Earlier photos show the frizzen missing, so its not "as found."
(https://i.ibb.co/4pHNZLp/18-AC5-CC4-0929-490-B-BE5-D-6680-BB97-BC17.jpg)
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Nothing is. ::)
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(https://i.ibb.co/q03gVWn/SPOCK.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5Ygjwn9)
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So what was the high bid? Opening bid was $20,000 and it is reflected as having 2 bids. My guess is that it was far lower than the $40,000 to $80,000 projected. This was offered on the owners website prior to consignment to the auction for something like $100,000 +.
Very interesting indeed.
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So what was the high bid? Opening bid was $20,000 and it is reflected as having 2 bids. My guess is that it was far lower than the $40,000 to $80,000 projected. This was offered on the owners website prior to consignment to the auction for something like $100,000 +.
Very interesting indeed.
I just looked on LiveAuctioneers & it says 22grand
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Thanks! Best say nothing more else I'll get in trouble.
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I think I might sell some of my German guns! ;D
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Dang - was hoping for a "telling" picture of the muzzle.
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Most folks (or I should say, most to whom I talk which is admittedly not a crowd...) are confident it's an old European piece that probably was brought here and used quite heavily.
It would be fun to think that maybe it's a Wistar import? I guess I would say that if it *was* a surviving import of the mid 18th century, it probably would look about like it now looks (in terms of use).