Longrifles of Note - J Fenimore Cooper rifle

[lexington1]

On page 146 of George Shumway's Longrifle Articles published in Muzzle Blasts 1965-2001, Vol. 2, is an early rifle. What are your ideas on this rifle? I'm not interested in the 'J Fenimore Cooper' inscribed on the buttplate, but what of it overall? American or German? George mentions that it has an American Maple stock. Just throwing it out there for discussion. Does anyone know of a better set of pictures for it? I would love to see the cheekpiece side of it.

[WESTbury]

For those of us that are new to longrifles and do not have Shumway's book, can you post some pictures?

[rich pierce]

I don’t have a full length view. Might be made here; might be made there. It looks more like fruitwood to me.

[Robert Wolfe]

Thanks Rich, I've only seen black and white's of it. Interesting
 

[lexington1]

Awesome Rich! Thank you very much.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I definitely agree with Rich in that I don't think it's maple either.  Also I think it's most likely European but probably has been used here for a long time, although there are certainly examples of German rifles that never left Germany that are also very beat up.  But I highly doubt this one is American.

[lexington1]

You wouldn't happen to have a pic of the sideplate would you?

[rich pierce]

There is no sideplate. Instead it has some carving there. Sorry for photo quality. These were taken at a show where it wasn’t convenient to lay it out and take my time.

[Clark Badgett]

To me that rifle screams European made. I ain't no expert and could be wrong though.

[Dobyns]

an earlier thread that has both the side opposite the lock (no side plate) and full length photo
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=51348.0

[lexington1]

Thanks for pointing out the earlier thread. I didn't realize that the added(?) carving was so crude when looking at the black and white pictures in Shumways article. Kind of a neat old gun, but would have been nice to see it in it's original state.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Yes it has been discussed previously - maybe here or maybe not - that portions of the carving may be later additions, perhaps when the silly buttplate engraving was added?  But there is really no way to prove this yes or no, as Americans certainly do not hold a patent on cruder carving and there are numerous European pieces extant with similarly crude (not sure if crude is the right word, I actually like it) carving.  May not really be a way to tell at this point as the piece is so worn and clearly has been refinished and slicked up multiple times.

I do really like the scale of it - love those huge honking breeches.

[Dobyns]

I actually like the carving other than where the sideplate normally would be. 

[WESTbury]

Americans certainly do not hold a patent on cruder carving and there are numerous European pieces extant with similarly crude (not sure if crude is the right word, I actually like it) carving.

This is for anybody who would like to respond.
As I am not an art connoisseur by any means, I would be interested in learning what are the criteria for acceptable carving on longrifles. Please provide examples, if feasible with your thoughts.
I'm not trying to be clever, I want to understand.

[Eric Kettenburg]

What do you mean by "acceptable?"  Are you approaching it from the perspective of perceived quality of execution, i.e. a professionally trained carver vs. some kid with a hammer and a nail, or the perspective of design and/or subject?

Or both?

Let me just say, I find pretty much any antique acceptable, regardless of either criteria!

I do not use the term "crude" in this thread as a derogatory term, at least not to my mind.  Perhaps I should say "less professional?"

[WESTbury]

Let me just say, I find pretty much any antique acceptable, regardless of either criteria!
I do not use the term "crude" in this thread as a derogatory term, at least not to my mind.  Perhaps I should say "less professional?"

Thanks Eric, for your thoughts, appreciate it.

[rich pierce]

Regarding carving, I guess it falls into many categories. Simple, folksy, and sophisticated can describe style. Then execution (which could include layout and flow) can be somewhere in the crude to outstanding scale.

Compare. Sophistication varies on these but I find all attractive.

[WESTbury]

Regarding carving, I guess it falls into many categories. Simple, folksy, and sophisticated can describe style. Then execution (which could include layout and flow) can be somewhere in the crude to outstanding scale.

Rich,
I guess with anything "artistic", it is pretty subjective.

I'm one of those oddballs in the longrifle collecting hobby that view all of the carving of the stocks as superfluous and not really, in my narrow view, important to the purpose of a rifle. From what I've read in the longrifle books I have, is that, in the case of rifles made in N. America, most all of the carving was performed in a somewhat narrow time period. After which it fell out of favor and no longer a selling point.

I think that "selling point" may be the crux of the matter, as building rifles was a business.

[WESTbury]

From what I've read in the longrifle books I have, is that, in the case of rifles made in N. America, most all of the carving was performed in a somewhat narrow time period. After which it fell out of favor and no longer a selling point.

I think that "selling point" may be the crux of the matter, as building rifles was a business.

Perhaps it is best if I use Kindig's explanation of the "artistic" rifles that appear after the Rev War to put this in focus.

On pages 30 and 31 of Kindig's book, is his explanation of how and why the Golden Age rifle, with all of the carving, was developed. 

[Mike Brooks]

From what I've read in the longrifle books I have, is that, in the case of rifles made in N. America, most all of the carving was performed in a somewhat narrow time period. After which it fell out of favor and no longer a selling point.

I think that "selling point" may be the crux of the matter, as building rifles was a business.

Perhaps it is best if I use Kindig's explanation of the "artistic" rifles that appear after the Rev War to put this in focus.

On pages 30 and 31 of Kindig's book, is his explanation of how and why the Golden Age rifle, with all of the carving, was developed.

That book is quite dated at this point in history.

[WESTbury]

That book is quite dated at this point in history.

Good point Mike, but in my opinion, Kindig's thoughts are still applicable in many ways as the evolution of firearms has pretty much been market driven since the beginning of arms availability for civilians. Which is why there are "black guns" in profusion these days.

[backsplash75]

I don’t have a full length view. Might be made here; might be made there. It looks more like fruitwood to me.

see Morphy's at https://morphyauctions.com/auctions/past-auctions/firearms-militaria-8/

[rich pierce]

Backsplash, is this upcoming or a part auction? Year, month? Thanks!

[backsplash75]

Backsplash, is this upcoming or a part auction? Year, month? Thanks!

Rich,
It is in the three day auction that is coming up on May 8-10 2024 that I linked above. The image I posted was just in the Morphy ad for that upcoming auction in the latest issue of Man At Arms. Looks like the catalog isn't live yet, but decent images should be online soon, in addition to the great detail shots you graciously shared above.

[lexington1]

I had a chance to look at this rifle a few weeks ago. It's a really cool gun, and I would say without a doubt it's German. It's kind of funny to me that it has J Fenimore Cooper engraved on the butt, because this is exactly the type of a rifle that I could imagine Hawkeye carrying, American made or German.