AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Herb on December 19, 2021, 10:18:39 PM
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Huh?
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I guess it wasn't a real exciting trip!!! ::)
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Herb, did you get to see Carson's Hawken rifle at the Masonic Lodge while in Santa Fe? Getting too see and handle that is worth the trip in and of itself.
Dick
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Herb, were you going down to Glorieta too?
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Actually Herb... I dig it!
I dozed off just reading it!
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I couldn't get the photos added in. I'll try a different method now. Carney and I drove 1,430 miles in my 2013 Park Avenue Buick Dec.6 through the 9th, got home just as the heavy snow started. Here are some of the Hawkens in Jim Gordon's museum in Glorieta, NM. You can left click twice to enlarge.
(https://i.ibb.co/T1JxSt3/DSC01227.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VxbcZT4) Some of the Hawkens are second from left. I think there are four rooms of guns like this. The Modena Hawken, Tom Tobin's Hawken and the Ruxton rifle are some well-known ones on display.
(https://i.ibb.co/mNNDLNG/DSC01273.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qJJytJd)
Two of the three known pistol grip Hawkens. I measured the top bore as .570 and the bottom one as .530. The third rifle is in the Cody museum and I measured that bore as .530 actual. I posted about it on this forum.
(https://i.ibb.co/RSdp9j6/DSC01225.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7zLJXkp)
We went to the Lodge and I checked measurements Phil Meek and Bob took in December,2019. I couldn't make the trip because of a blizzard. Here is the rifle compared to an enlarged photo of it from Jim Gordon's book, with his permission. The photo is exact size, the rifle is closer and looks larger. I had a photo taken of me with the rifle, but the operator failed and didn't get it. Sigh.
(https://i.ibb.co/j8yTHMT/DSC01322.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GdW0F20)
Here are Jeff and Carney with mountain man Jim Beckwourth's rifle. He engraved his name on the bottom flat. He was a mulatto who lived with the Crow Indians as a chief. Jeff is preparing an article for publication about this rifle's place in history. He is willing to discuss this rifle with serious students, if you want to contact him, PM me and I'll get that to Jeff. He wants me to make a bench copy of this rifle. I'll have to hand make most of the furniture and have a custom barrel cut.
(https://i.ibb.co/4dVYQHK/DSC01318.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M6CGXmZ)
Me with the rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/RSm3J5z/DSC01302.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qnfN2Zk)
The rawhide repair on the wrist. (Left-click twice to enlarge).
(https://i.ibb.co/RcvRSJJ/DSC01287.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ttv9TNN)
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Herb, I gather from your photos and commentary that you did not see the Carson rifle. You also neglected to mention that Jims' museum at Glorietta has a whole lot more than just Hawken Rifles. He has guns from the F & I War I through the late 1800s'. It is worth anyone's time to contact him and arrange a visit. He is a most accomodating fellow. To my tastes once you have seen a Hawken, you have pretty much see them all. But, they are still a staple of the old West, so worth looking at.
Dick
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Yes, we saw, handled, measured and photographed the Kit Carson Hawken at the Masonic Lodge. My photo of the room in Gordon's museum shows a few of his rifles. He has hundreds of them of many different schools and makers. He has a little room full of BB air rifles, dozens of them.
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Yeah!!! Way to go Herb. Glad that you saw the Carson. It is a story unto itself. That is one gun that I really like. And, by the way, Hawkens are like John
Armstrong rifles of Marykand. He made one gun dozens of time, but they sell for high five figures when you can find one; just like a Hawken.
Thanks, Dick
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Herb,
Thank you for posting the museum photos.
It is wonderful to see that some of America's heritage is being preserved for future generations to appreciate. Unfortunately, many today have absolutely no idea of the history of our country.
Kent
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I have built longrifles from 15 to 20 different schools. Fullstock, halfstock, flint, percussion, .36 to .58, right handed, left handed, from the stick or inletted stocks. A Hawken pistol. Bench copies, copies or full custom. You go into Gordon's museum and there is sensory overload. There is only so much time to look, and I prefer to build Hawkens, for the most part. Here are a few pictures of other rifles.
You can left-click twice to enlarge a photo.
(https://i.ibb.co/fpM7XcZ/DSC01268.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mqJ7Rxd)
(https://i.ibb.co/zSZqswb/DSC01270.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XztcXTp)
(https://i.ibb.co/3fDsZs7/DSC01271.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B4XPMPt)
(https://i.ibb.co/cwYPbFw/DSC01274.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hcYkXWc)
(https://i.ibb.co/rQT7c59/DSC01275.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2FmnscJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/dD9ZX7v/DSC01278.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bXhtY7V)
(https://i.ibb.co/wRbX8cc/DSC01279.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9NfLBZZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/pn8xNq8/DSC01258.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LvW8BKW)
(https://i.ibb.co/tZwKC4H/DSC01261.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cbK3T1y)
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Nice collection of photos Herb. The last time I was there ( Feb, 2020 ) Jim told me he had over a thousand guns in the museum. A lot of guns by the big time makers of the early west and fur trade. Sensory overload might be an understatement. Along with all the guns there is so much more of the early west there to see. For me it is more impressive than Cody because of all the muzzleloaders and other period items. JMHO
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My 2 cents worth.
Walk in the door you are confronted by a 1878 Gatling gun on tripod mount and it just gets better from there.
The only known ( for want of my lack of intelligence) Lancaster that is fully Iron mounted. Left handed J.J. Henry American pattern. Russel, I. Wilson knives (several bushels) many other makers from relics to as new.
I am going to correct Herb on the BB guns probably close to 150.
Wheellocks, Matchlocks, Colt revolvers of many different models.
Hunting pouches with accouterments still there, fabulous horns.
Cased pistol sets, rifles and shotguns.
Indian artifacts and original Western art work.
Know if I can get as smart as Herb I will also post pictures, Analog in a Digital age.
Carney
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Thank you for the report of your trip. Amazing collection!
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Herb
Thanks for the wonderful bunch of pictures. I hope to visit one day.
Couple of questions. On the full stock rifle that was Jim Beckwourth's, does it have a straight non tapered barrel? A swamped barrel? Or a tapered barrel? Is there a Dimick rifle or two in the collection at Jim's museum?
Scott
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The Beckwourth rifle barrel is 1.20 ahead of the powder drum and 1.10 at the muzzle, a straight taper. It is 39 7/8 inches long ahead of the drum, which is basically screwed into the breech plug. Total barrel length is 40 3/8". I did not have time to look at all the rifles. Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West" Volume III has photos of Dimick rifles he owns. Eight plains rifles, one carbine, a rifle/shotgun, three double barreled shotguns and five caplock pistols.
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What are the specs on the Beckworth rifle?
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If I ever get back to New Mexico ..this is stop # 1.
I agree way better than the Cody Museum in terms of muzzleloaders.
Thank you and Herb,
How can one man acquire so many artifacts...???????????????????
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How can one man acquire so many artifacts...???????????????????
$$$$$$$$$$$$$, and then some more $$$$$$$$$
;-)
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WOW - just ------WOW! :o
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What are the specs on the Beckworth rifle?
It is .56 caliber as I measured with my bore gauges. A few light rust spots in the bore, but I did not have cleaning rod sections long enough to reach the breech. Muzzle is relieved to .580 for perhaps 3/8 of an inch, then in an inch or so (I'm guessing) chokes down to .560 for nine inches according to Jeff's measurements, then opens up to .570 back to the breech plug. Seven lands and grooves and one in 48 inch twist. I'll have to get a custom barrel cut .560, then spend a day lead lapping in the bottom .570. Relieving the muzzle will be easy. Has a drum screwed into the last 1/2 inch of the barrel, right into the breech plug. Jeff says the rifle was originally flintlock with only one lock bolt. Wants copy to be built as a flintlock. Tang is parallel sided, 4.2" long and .454" wide, square back end, two wood screws. Trigger plate is 4.3" long, held in place with wood screws through trigger guard.
Trigger reach is 14 inches to the front trigger. The ram rod is 41 inches long, .470 at muzzle, no cap on front end, reduces to 3/8 inch after 16 inches, then tapers down to a concealed ball puller in a .32 cap 1.7 inches long. Two piece riveted butt plate. Trigger guard has riveted and soldered spurs, is 8.9" long. One wood screw holds it at the rear, two wood screw hold the front tang through the trigger plate. Pitch is nine inches down at the muzzle when the butt plate sits level on the floor and the tang hump is against a vertical wall. There is no toe plate. Don't know the weight.
Rear sight is a buckhorn style with the shelf .515 inch above the barrel and a very small notch . The front sight is .145 inch high, I don't know how he could see it or how he aimed with it. The rod pipes are .520 ID front and .500 ID rear. The entry pipe is .500 inside diameter, made of two pieces brazed (?) together with copper. Jim Beckwourth engraved or chiseled his name in the bottom flat near the breech and filled the engraving with lead.
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second rifle down is a Lancaster County rifle all Iron mounted
(https://i.ibb.co/X4DNXfd/img-0047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/thzkBwN)
St. Louis horn
(https://i.ibb.co/vq3Pp4Z/img-0016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W5kyZvg)
St. Louis Horn
(https://i.ibb.co/7nF9kgm/img-0019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1rxSzsW)
M.L. Rood American Bowie Denver, CO
(https://i.ibb.co/m6s1rXx/img-0043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6ghVc1d)
English Woodhead Bowie mother of pearl scales
(https://i.ibb.co/Z1v8HYf/img-0044.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M5KV8Gg)
Confederate Mountain Howitzer used at Battle of Gloriette Pass
(https://i.ibb.co/88cPwcb/img-0053.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysSgCSp)
Down the bore
(https://i.ibb.co/CnM3mTw/img-0056.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7GRdj6S)
One of MANY Horn and bag sets
(https://i.ibb.co/0Ym9PPD/img-0061.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nQ61hhg)
Ivory handled Bowie with silver sheath
(https://i.ibb.co/g3V3ms3/img-0004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R9y9YL9)
Just a fews things I found interesting on Herb and my trip to New Mexico
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Let me know if you come back up & I'll buy you dinner! I'm in Santa Fe. I spent 10yrs in Utah & really miss it.
Roger B.
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This is a link to an older write up about the Beckwurth gun.
The owner had a few youtube videos about it too as I recall.
T. Albert
https://www.muzzleloadermagazine.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=14
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Wow, what wonderful detail! I've taken Muzzleloader Magazine for years but do not remember this issue. I'll find it. Jeff told me these details, but how nice to have them posted here! Thanks! Herb
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I wonder if this was originally a flintlock? The lock profile right in front of the drum takes an odd---to me anyway---dip towards the drum. And there appears to be a straight horizontal line below the same area. Dan
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I wonder if this was originally a flintlock? The lock profile right in front of the drum takes an odd---to me anyway---dip towards the drum. And there appears to be a straight horizontal line below the same area. Dan
Two things occur to me. One its a restock. The key way in the bottom of the barrel is a good clue. As is the mortise in the signature.
Two it was a FL for most of its life. Not enough breech corrosion to have been used extensively as a percussion or it was very well cared for or not used much as a percussion.
The hogged out lock inlet is another clue. But this could be the result of the replacement percussion lock being installed. It appears to be a nice quality lock too.
But many broken rifles were restocked in the west or by a blacksmith.
Great rifle in any event, with historical provenance.
Wish Santa Fe was closer.
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A trip to the Gordon Museum would be a trek for some but there is the three vol. set of books that Jim wrote with a gazilion pictures. Not as good as being there but still might be worth having. The museum itself is about half mile off the Interstate exit so if your driving by it is'nt a real problem in that respect.
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Herb , you still look the same as when you stopped by my place in N.E.MO. 15-20 years ago, if you ever pass close by , let me know ahead of time . Always try to follow up on your journeys.
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Thanks, Albert. I enjoyed visiting with you and always enjoy your postings and builds.
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I was sick with Covid when this was posted so I only just read this thread. I like building plains rifles too so when Herb posts something I take notice. Very interesting information on Beckwourths's rifle and I love the pictures. I have a question on Beckwourths rifle was the rifle made by Hawken?
Rob
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I think Jeff Hengesbaugh's research indicates that this was the start of the Hawken rifle. So I think the answer is yes.
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Thanks Herb
Rob
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The write up on the rifle is very interesting I am no expert but does a drum positioned like it is on that rifle indicate a conversion from flint? I find the trigger guard interesting too the way the finger spur is riveted to the guard. I haven't seen a lot of original Hawkens in person but is a finger spur with rivets something that has been seen on other period plains rifles?
Rob
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Jeff has a drawing of the drum screwed into the barrel in the center of the threaded plug. The plug scales out to 1.35 inches long. I don't know how that works. There had to be a groove filed into the plug face back to the drum hole. If it worked for that, it would have worked for a flint flash hole. Jeff has had the plug out, but it seems strange to me.
There were Hawkens with spurred trigger guards. There is an S.Hawken that is a brass mounted plains rifle. It was in the Cody Firearms Museum, but it was not out for my inspection when I asked to see all their Hawkens. This was in December 2018 when all the exhibits were down for remodeling. It is in Jim Gordon's book on page 390.
The Hawken "sporting rifles" had spurred trigger guards.
Other "Plains Rifles" with spurred guards were made by Dimick, Gemmer, L.N. Nutz of St. Louis, and Hoffman.
Of course, when the Beckwourth rifle was built, there was no "Hawken" rifle as we now know them. Jeff's theory is that this was the beginning of them.
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Herb, thank you for all the details on that Beckworth rifle. Almost enough info to make a bench copy!
The picture of you holding the rifle really makes it seem large. Nice detailed pictures all the way through your comment, and they do help to clarify this rifle well. Interesting that it seems to be the piece that inspired the line of Hawken rifles.
I got a Thompson Center "Hawken" kit, un-opened this past week. Looking at the kit, your pictures really made it clear that a LOT of modifying MAY make it appear, at a distance, of actually being even a copy of a real J. Hawken or J. & S. Hawken. Especially if you leave your spectacles behind.
But, I will have fun both assembling/modifying, and shooting this one. First thing will be to replace that terrible lock with something better. LR RPL looks like the ticket.
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Thanks Herb. I built a full stock percussion light plains rifle from Don Stiths parts set. The trigger guard in the set had a finger spur. Don told me it was a pattern that was copied from an original. I ended up not using that guard because I wanted to use another guard that I got from the Hawken Shop that was similar. The difference between the two guards was the one Don had was installed with pins and used a short bar set trigger. I wanted to use a long bar trigger and a guard with a threaded stud. The guards were virtually except that the one from the Hawken Shop was a little wider. I thought the riveted spur an interesting feature. Its also interesting that there was no toe plate on the Beckwourth rifle.
Rob
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Maltby of Galena, IL had a spurred trigger guard, so did Creamer (with a back-action lock). I doubt any of these were riveted.
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Rob: I appreciate your enthusiasm for your new found T/C "Hawken" project. Reworking that rifle will only improve it's appearance. As a stock factory rifle you have to look at a T/C rifle through either one of these three media, in order to conclude that it resembles an original Hawken rifle: First, through a deer skin, second, through a sheet of carbon paper, and finally, using a welder's mask. I've held this predudice since Thompson/Centre advertised their repro rifles as Hawken rifles, since the early 70's. Even so, my first muzzleloading rifle was a T/C "Hawken" in flint. And I used it to kill a ton of deer over ten or fifteen years, back then.
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LAST DOOR TO HEAVEN!!!! THANKS
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I got a chance to see the Beckwourth rifle a few weeks ago. My initial impression was its stoutness and nice balance despite the length of pull. I'm not sure, but it definitely looked like a cap conversion. The barrel was either not finished well when made or it had a hard life. Many artifacts on the barrel looked like hammer marks and not-quite-finished file work. AND it had a slight swamp measured with a caliper. I hope get a better understanding of what forging looks like someday. 1-48 twist down the hole.
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I realize this is an old thread. Apologies to those who might be offended.
Anyway, I have a strictly academic question concerning the Tom Tobin/Toben Hawken, which I believe is in Mr. Gordon's museum. Is it marked J&S Hawken, or S. Hawken?
Supposedly, based on a statement in James Perkins' Tom Tobin: Frontiersman (p. 32), Tom bought the rifle directly from the Hawken shop on a trip to St. Louis in 1844, which I believe would be during the period when the J&S stamp was used (Jacob died in the cholera epidemic of 1849). However, I don't recall seeing anyone mention how the barrel is actually marked. I don't own Mr. Gordon's book, but I have seen the images that are in it, and I can't make out much other than St. Louis. Most people prefer to focus on the twelve "notches" cut into the side of the barrel rather than the maker's mark. In his article, My Hunt For the Tom Toben Rifle (https://www.muzzleblasts.com/Library.MBO/V2N2.MBO/Articles.V2N2.MBO/A3.V2N2.MBO.shtml), Col. Goodwin also neglected that detail, but he did note that the rifle had a "late Hawken" triggerguard. I would think of "late" as post-1849, but I don't claim to be an expert.
Just curious, in case anyone knows.
Thanks,
Notchy Bob
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Well... I should have looked a little harder. I just turned the last stone, and found this on some fellow's Facebook page:
(https://i.ibb.co/5gHrQxPg/Screenshot-68.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
I don't have a Facebook account but I was able to snag this photo, which reportedly shows the placard that is with the Tobin rifle in Mr. Gordon's museum. The fellow who posted it does not appear to be a "gun guy," but just a tourist who happened upon Mr. Gordon's museum. In any event, the placard states Tobin's Hawken is marked J&S.
Notchy Bob