AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Steeltrap on July 06, 2022, 10:12:12 PM
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I was (for the 3rd and final time) working on my 50 Cal flint pistol. I was fitting the trigger guard and when I gave it a bit of a "tweek" to bend it.....snap. >:(
Now, I know one option would be to just get another trigger guard and start all over. Or I could get it TIG welded (I cannot weld). I was thinking perhaps I could solder it.....but would likely need silver solder. Would a propane torch provide sufficient heat for silver solder?
Or should I just look at TIG.....or drop back 10 and punt with a new TG?
(https://i.imgur.com/iRfHCkYh.jpg)
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If it’s in stock somewhere, punt!
Adjust the new one with heat if necessary. Cast steel is a $#@*-shoot to work with.
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+1 for getting a new one. I've welded up a couple cast guards that broke...it welds ugly...at least when I do it....I broke a pistol guard just like that matter of fact.
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who did you buy the tg from. it is a piece of $#@*. i can see that in the grain
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I can't recall where I bought it from....it's been a long time. IIRC I bought the TG, then it sat around for 5-7 years......
Thanks for the advice. A new one will be ordered. 8)
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A nice clean break.
I'd clamp both pieces securely with the break firmly in place and in alaignment.
A small amt of flux in the joint,,then Hard Solder the break back together
(We used to call it Silver Soldering but that is now the usual term for the non-lead soft solder with tin/silver content)
Once the joint is cooled, file and polish off the excess solder back down to the orig contour and only the thinnest of yellow solder line will remain.
Hardly noticable especially in that position.
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It's worth a shot. When you say "hard solder" you're speaking of what % of silver?
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If currently available,I would buy another one.
Bob Roller
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I've ordered another one from TOTW. But, now that I have a broken one that I can "experiment" with I may do that. I just don't want to spend $40 on solder for a $20 part. ;D
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In the pic it looks like you were tweeking on a guard on a rifle with finish on it. Seems like all that should have been done sooner, sorry if I’m wrong, but that’s how it looks. If it didn’t fit right then, it likely won’t when soldered. As for buying the solder, if your gonna work on rifles you might as well get it, you will eventually need it, no sense waiting till you have to have it. Steel cast guards can suck, I’ve broken a few also, usually there is a void where the part fails.
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Yeah.....should'a, would'a, could'a, etc...... ;D
This was my first build that I did 15 years ago....and have re-done and re-fixed three times.
I picked a nice walnut that had a lot of curl in it.....that (for a first build) was the beginning of my mistakes....er....learning curve. Maple is far more forgiving.
I've considered just tossing this walnut stock and redoing a pistol in maple. At least this time I have a better shot at minimal mistakes. But for now I've decide to just go with this stock, shoot it, and if the bug hits me maybe......maybe I'll restock it.
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So, before working with these cast pieces, is there any sort of heat treating that will mitigate the potential for breakage like this?
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So, before working with these cast pieces, is there any sort of heat treating that will mitigate the potential for breakage like this?
Impossible to say since we don’t know what mix of alloys went into the casting. I have worked with glass hard castings which were nearly impossible to work with as well as steel that was as soft as wrought iron. When I use steel castings I prepare for the worst and maybe I’ll get lucky. I’m pretty sure that Jim Kibler has some control over what is used on his iron mounts but I can’t speak for the supply houses
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Cast parts weather it being made from brass or steel is a $#@* shoot when it comes to their material content. You just don't know what they are made of. As far as joining the two pieces together and making it look as new - my thought is it is very unlikely. Soft soldering will be weak because of the cross section of the break - hard solder (AKA silver braze) might work but you run the risk of destroying the two surfaces and loose the close fit of the existing joint unless you are careful with the heat. Plus, there will be a color difference at the joint. Silver brazes are not cheap as you have already pointed out. Since you ordered a new one this would be the time to experiment on the broken part AFTER you get the new part --- good luck.
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Yes there will be a color difference when using Hard Solder,,it's a shade of yellow.
But you don't use it as a gap filler. You use it to repair the very close fitting break in the part.
A very fine hair line width joint results. That is all the color difference you will see.
Can't deal with that,,buy and fit another guard.
There are hundreds of different alloys of Hard Solder. All for different specific applications in industries and specialtys.
For this type of work, most any general use hard solder will do.
Need some Hard Solder,,I'll send you a couple feet of very fine dia wire Hard Solder wire. It's the same stuff B&L used to put eye glass frames together with when they still made them here in the USA.
I've been using it for many years.
For that job you'll use less than an inch of it.
You need flux of course and that you can but in a small jar at a real welding supply or hardware store.
You'll need a torch that can heat the joint to a bright red color to melt and flow the solder...Propane might not do it these days from my experience,,maybe it will . They seem to be pretty whimpy in the heat dept lately. Maybe just me.
It won;t damage the steel,,just solder the joint back together.
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I agree, silver braze. It’s not that hard to do. If careful, it will be barely noticeable.
Jim
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Once in a while I used to install trigger guards on Hawken triggers and was always careful so to not snap the threaded stud off.
I fixed one by drilling the broken stud out and then putting a screw thru the guard bow and fixed it.It was for my "Hawken" in
1969.
Bob Roller
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Yea, threading those little studs on Hawken guards can be fun.
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Yes there will be a color difference when using Hard Solder,,it's a shade of yellow.
But you don't use it as a gap filler. You use it to repair the very close fitting break in the part.
A very fine hair line width joint results. That is all the color difference you will see.
Can't deal with that,,buy and fit another guard.
There are hundreds of different alloys of Hard Solder. All for different specific applications in industries and specialtys.
For this type of work, most any general use hard solder will do.
Need some Hard Solder,,I'll send you a couple feet of very fine dia wire Hard Solder wire. It's the same stuff B&L used to put eye glass frames together with when they still made them here in the USA.
I've been using it for many years.
For that job you'll use less than an inch of it.
You need flux of course and that you can but in a small jar at a real welding supply or hardware store.
You'll need a torch that can heat the joint to a bright red color to melt and flow the solder...Propane might not do it these days from my experience,,maybe it will . They seem to be pretty whimpy in the heat dept lately. Maybe just me.
It won;t damage the steel,,just solder the joint back together.
Your offer is more than generous! I’ll take you up on it, but I don’t need two feet . One will more than suffice. I’ve been looking for an excuse to buy. Map-gas torch…and I just found it! I’ll PM you my address if your offer still stands! Thanks!!
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PM me a mailing address and I'll send some right out to you..
..It's on the way to you in the USMail
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I’ll post pics…success or failure…when I do this. I’m away at the beach with family for a week. I’ll stab at it when I get home.
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First, thank you Kutter for the silver solder. The two pieces (thick and thin) will likely be a lifetime supply!!
I received what I thought would be a replacement trigger guard from Track. I knew I was guessing it was the correct part.....but that didn't happen. The front part is far to short to match up with the existing one.
Appears I will need to hone my soldering skills and make it work. I'm awaiting arrival of the correct flux from an on-line welding supply place. Should be here in a few days. That will give me more time to recover from my weeks vacation stay with my 3 kids and 7 grandkids. I never thought a house could get so loud......but it was a "good loud". 8)
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Ok....I have the TG in my homemade jig. All clamped in and ready to hard solder. I'm just waiting on the flux to come. 8)
(https://i.imgur.com/kMi1wNDl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MEXUXZyl.jpg)
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Man.....with being on this planet almost 67 years I've never got the hang of working with molten lead....and even worse.....soldering stuff together. I can do some water pipes.......and I even shy away from that.....but I fear I've totally butchered this trigger guard.
I cannot get the solder to flow into the joint. I've heated it up 3 times, on the second and third time the joint held, only to find out it did not hold across the entire joint. The silver solder has mostly stuck to the outside of the TG.
So...here's the ugly pics. Please laugh it all out of your system before you post. I know I'm not at all good in the metal arena.....but I will try.
BTW, I've cleaned up the joint with alcohol (Should'a drank the good kind first) and still no avail. So.....is the piece now to far gone for salvaging? I've tried heating the joint from "behind" with no success at getting the solder to flow. I've tried it with the heat applied to the front with marginal success. I'm not applying the solder with the flame on the piece.
So, as you can see I don't know what I'm doing wrong here. Any input would be helpful. :(
(https://i.imgur.com/Lo9cD96l.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/qc4D8tRl.jpg)
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I had that happen to me before, couldn't get solder to flow as you heat up trigger guard there is a whole bunch of $#@* flowing out of metal and flux won't help. I took my 2 pieces and put in a pot of boiling vinegar and let it set for about 30 minutes, after that it went together easily. you will have to heat up to remove solder/brazing material that is currently there.
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We’ll, the flux looks burnt. Also I like to apply the paste flux to the joint prior to clamping in place. If the joint was heated without flux being present, you’ll get oxidation.
Silver brazing is usually pretty easy and I find it to be more forgiving than soft soldering. I would try again.
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I have not had luck silver brazing with a butt joint. Such a small area to hold it together. I have had success by putting a riveted strap on the back, inside the bow in this case. Everything filed bright including the butt joint, fluxed and riveted together. Its not easy to do when you dont want to touch and contaminate surfaces. I held it horizontal so that i could lay the silver braze wire along the joint and buried it in flux. I let gravity hold it in place. Capillary action did the rest. I then filed the back side to blend in and the front to clean up.
I hope this may help in some way. Good luck
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I had that happen to me before, couldn't get solder to flow as you heat up trigger guard there is a whole bunch of $#@* flowing out of metal and flux won't help. I took my 2 pieces and put in a pot of boiling vinegar and let it set for about 30 minutes, after that it went together easily. you will have to heat up to remove solder/brazing material that is currently there.
Thanks.....at the rate I'm going I'll need my own silver mine.
Did you bring the vinegar to a boil, then place the pieces in for the 30 min with the heat off? Or did you place the pieces and leave the vinegar boil for the time frame? (Heat on?)
I'll give that a try. I can get (my guess) about 20% of the solder to flow into the crack. After three tries I'm well versed at cleaning off the solder that's there. :(
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Being unskilled at soldering anything (I tried), I gravitated to solder paste, simple, strong and works every time. I have used it for underlugs, (I tried to knock one off with a hammer, it was a no go). I have made front sights taller and trigger bars higher and even put a broken trigger back together with a scarf joint, nothing has ever come apart.
(https://i.ibb.co/NSRtJrq/soldering-on-a-lug.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zm9GFSr)
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZTRHzm/trigger-bar-add-on.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4fXZ8z7)
(https://i.ibb.co/KFFtcZ3/trigger-guard-inlet-001.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/GW2WNYj/solder-paste.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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The problem I now have is when I get the joint soldered, the two pieces are not fitting properly in the stock. I started all of this madness with the intent of getting a better\closer fit of the TG. (First project....never fully happy with the fit...bla, bla).
So, now when I get the solder to hold, I am back to needing just a bit more "bend" to get it to fit properly. I've tried bending in a different spot....but I've created more issues than I've solved.
Perhaps the best thing for me to do (short of finding a 6-6.25" long steel TG to replace it) is to create a jig that will be the exact fitted shape I need, file the two pieces at the break so they fit flush across and at the correct angle (file...test...file...test) and then solder that.
Or....align it right and go see someone who knows what they are doing.
In any event, I'm a bit frustrated for now. I appreciate all the help you guys here have provided. I'll consider my options and make a choice. 8)
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Took a break....walked away....read a magazine. Gave it some thought and since soldering it back "as it was" won't align it properly, I thought of how to make the angle correct and transfer that angle to a jig (which I will make) and then solder it at the correct angle for the stock. I'm just using a piece of an older wooden rod that I can "touch" or contact the top of the TG rear loop, have that wooden rod rest on the TG, then measure the distance between the very front of TG. I'll clamp that same angle on the jig, and all should work well.
I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier.
(https://i.imgur.com/WDgOEGCl.jpg)
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Make sure your side-to-side alaignment is correct also. The rear tang can be positioned correctly according to the rod and measurement, but can stillbe slightly kicked out to one side or the other and won't fit back down in the orig inlet.
A simple straight edge can check it,,if the inlet in the stock corresponds to a straight line as well.
The soldering must be done to absolutely clean metal.
A butt joint will hold OK in this position as there is no pressure on it once the guard is in position and if the graud and tangs sit into their inletting cuts w/o any need to push one or the other into place using the screws as jacks to do so.
Adding a small, short plate on the backside of the joint will substantially increase the strength of the joint. It can be filed and shaped so as not to show as a second full layer of material.
Flux the ajoining surfaces before clamping.
Flux the entire area around the join after clamping into final position.
You must get the joint hot enough,,that means somewhere around 1200F to 1400F as a general rule for Hard Solder/(Silver Solder).
Burning the Flux is a common mistake when Hard Soldering,,even when Soft Soldering.
It means that the Flux is heated too high and it looses it's protective quality to keep air/oxygen from the surface of the steel.
The result is that the steel surface developes heat scale and the solder will not attach itself.
The Flux as it is heated will at first start to 'grow' and expand. Then run a little. But as the heat increases it will retract back to the surface and then start to turn into a clear glass appearing liquid covering on the steel area where applied originally.
That's what you want.
When the temperature you are heating the metal and the flux reach the correct point where the solder will melt and flow,,simply touching the tip of the solder wire to the joint will immedietely melt the wire and the solder will flow all over the fluxed area and into any of even the tinyest cracks. That's why fluxing the joints/cracks before clamping the assembly together for soldering is a good idea.
You can while heating the metal keep touching the solder wire to the metal to find the point where it does in fact melt and flow.
Or you can cut a small piece of the solder wire and actually wrap/twist it around the joint before covering it with the flux on the outside of the area.
That's been mentioned as a technique already LynnC where he plants a piece of solder in the flux so it wouldn't fall free and it melts and flows right into the joint on it's own
It will melt on it's own when the heat is right. You can still add a bit more with the solder wire if you want to if you think it needs it.
I often when using the tip of the solder wire, warm the end of the wire for a quick second in the torch flame and then stick it in the flux. It will catch a bit of the flux on the end of the wire. Just an extra bit of the flux into the joint along with the solder wire when I apply the solder.
Once the solder flows and it looks good,,you are done.
Don't 'play with the solder and try and make it look pretty'.
You can quickly over heat it that way trying to get it looking fancy. The joint is already at somewhere in the 1300F range. It doesn't take much more torch time to spoil the soldering job. You can still burn the flux off and destroy the soldered join at this point.
Pull away and let it cool all by itself.
No water cool down,,no air blasts. Just leave it alone. If it's clamped up in a jig,,leave it in the jig till cooled down.
The glass like flux around the joint will come off by placing the piece in plain boiling water.
Let it boil for 20min or more.
Some of the toughest stuff may need some help at the end to remove by a simple wire brush or wheel will do.
Heat scale on the steel can be removed by then placing the part submurged into plain room temp water with muriadic acic in it.
It doesn't need to be very strong.
A 1/2 Gallon of tap water,,,2 tablespoons of the acid is all I use.
I have an old Tupperware container with a snaptight lid that I keep the soln in. I keep reusing it over and over.
Some use more acid,,it will work quicker of course. I can wait.
Use at room temp..do not warm! Warn soln will cause very quick reaction but can pit the metal before you know it.
The heat scale will slowly turn jet black. What doesn't fall off on it's own, you can wipe off with your fingers. Might take a couple hours or more.
The very low acid concentration will not pit the steel. It will come out with a French Grey color.
I wash the part(s) with soapy water, rinse hot water then dry. Then oil if leaving them for a time.
The 'Silver Solder Paste w/Flux' shown by Eric is actually Silver bearing Soft Solder. It is usually around 95% Tin and 5% Silver.
The carton states 450F melt temp for the solder and that is what that Tin/Silver Soft Solder works at.
Hard Solder (what we used to call 'Silver Solder') is the 1200 to 1400F melt/flow temp solders.
The Silver bearing Soft Solders do work remarkably well and are a bit stronger than the Lead/Tin alloy soft solders.
Those that are mixed like the one shown as a fine metal dust pre-mixed with their flux are very easy to use.
There are some Hard Solders that are (were?) sold that way. Don't know if they still are..
One thing about the Tin/Silver soft solders is that they stay bright-white. They never oxidize like the Lead/Tin soft solders.
The bright white line sometimes makes no difference on a hidden solder joint. But at times, the solder line is visible and the Lead/Tin solders do oxidize and turn a dark grey/black over time naturally. Looks better than the bright white line in many applications like sight bases and SxS ribs.
I believe there may be chemicals that can be used to color the Tin/Silver solders I think. So there is that possibility.
There are some to use to color the Hard Solder as well,,or at least they used to sell some. Many of them will oxidize to some extent on their own so they do not remain a bright solder line.
I do like the solder-in-flux mix though. Very handy to use.
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This info is for Steeltrap - You burned the flux and you might as well throw that mess in the trash and buy a new TG. You will only frustrate yourself if you continue down this path. You need to buy a book or find technical info on the difference between soft soldering and silver brazing and just brazing with brass alloys. Get away from the terms "soft and hard solder" and maybe you will read how the different processes work and their proper usage. This post is getting too painful for me to continue reading - ::) :-[ :-X :'(
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First, thanks for all post and responses. As I stated I am NOT good, adept, knowledgable about using hard solder. As a young man I tried my hand at welding, casting round balls, and the like. I was bad at it then and things haven't changed as I just stayed away from "stuff with torches."
You think it's painful to read? It's more painful to watch me fail. But that's how it goes. Hopefully a thread such as this will help those (like me) who are "fire challenged) ;)
I watched a few video's and it appears (appears?) that I am burning the flux. Apparently my method of "hold that flame until it's cherry red" is not the proper way to apply flux. What I need to do (if I understand this correctly) is apply enough heat to cause the flux to flow, THEN apply enough (more) heat to melt the solder.
I've watched the flux "boil" when I heated the piece up and apparently that is my mistake. (To much heat to fast)
I'm in my 60's now and hardly a "putz". But I am an amateur and have a true appreciation for those who have honed their skills and produce end results that are masterful. I'll never reach that level. (A man's got to know his limitations 8) )
I "groaned" when I snapped the TG. If I could find the correct sized replacement I'd go that route. But that's not the hand I'm currently dealing with. It's a new day and with the additional knowledge provided from the responses and watching any videos I can find I'll take a stab at it again.
Thanks for your knowledge gent's.
Edit: I notice there are 1,600+ "Views" of this thread. I have to think there are "others" out there like myself, who are...let's say "clumsy" when it comes to using flame on metal. I hope this helps anyone who is of that ilk. And remember.....the torch is hot....don't do this unprotected....don't do this over a carpeted floor!! Solder gets hot as the devil and hot splashes will make bad things happen!! Stay safe!
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The flux I use for silver brazing is a white powder that you mix with water to make a paste. It is then applied cold to the parts. I like to lay the silver braze wire along the joint an cover it with flux as well. All before any heat is applied. I hope this helps.
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Well, I got it done and it's holding together very well. The piece also drops right into the stock so all is good! Pretty?....maybe not so much but that's Ok. It just adds to the multitude of mistakes I made on this first build flintlock. To the average guy the gun looks fine. to those with an eye, that's another matter.
Thanks for all the input and help. I've now figured out that I was overcooking the flux before heating the piece to the temp that would allow the silver solder to flow.
Here's a pic after I did a few swipes with the file. The black has cleaned up pretty well using alcohol on a rag. I'll of course file\sand this down to a finished look, re-apply the Patina solution and have it all back together soon enough.
(https://i.imgur.com/mvbWkk1l.jpg)
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I am thinking you just added some honest to goodness patina ;D
Congrats!
I admire your tenacity.
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I am impressed. Its together and holding and fits your inlets. What more could you hope for and got an education to boot. Well done.
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Good Job!,,Proud of you!
Fixing something instead of just tossing it and buying a replacement is what this hobby & business and it's gunmaking history is all about.
Too much of it has just turned into parts changing. That goes for the cartridge gun 'smithing as well.
The process is so very handy for use in other fixes, repairs and assembly make ups.
Now you have a new way to look at doing those in the future.
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Way to persist! Doing things like this is a way to learn, and there is a lot of satisfaction found in the results,if not the process. Thanks for being brave enough to document your efforts.
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Thanks gent's for the accolades. I believe I've got the confidence to at least attempt to tackle any metal that needs hard solder in the future. In fact, I'm so confident that I'm ordering a few different diameters of hard (silver) solder for any future project.
I also think I'm going to look around for a hard solder flux that is in powder form and needs mixed to make the past. I'm going to assume the shelf life of that type of flux (powder) is far better than the paste flux I purchased. From what I've read this flux I purchased has an expiration date of March 2023. I'm sure it will work for maybe another 6 months or so....but I don't want the frustration of finding out it won't.
And I do thank all the input that was given. This forum is a wealth of good information!!
Thanks again!!
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The powdered flux came out of my dad’s machine shop. He passed in ’96 so I really couldnt say just how old that silver brazing flux might be but it still works. Honestly it may have started out as a ready made paste flux but dried out over 30 years or so. Water make it paste again.
JerryWH (Jerry Huddleston-Google his work) set me straight on terminology about 14 years ago and he was right. At a red heat we are Brazing. Soldering never approaches red heat. We meant the same thing in a discussion but one of us (me) was using the wrong terminology and it can be confusing to the guy trying to learn. I would encourage all of us to try to make this distinction.
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I have hard solder Flux paste that I bought maybe 30yrs ago. It came in a small plastic jar with a screw cap lid.
I'm still using it to this day so I guess it doesn't go 'bad'.
It does dry out sometimes and I just add a few drops of plain water and remix if to a paste again. Just enough to be able to be spead on the part and stay where you put it.
For actual Brazing (brass or brass 'Brazing Rod' used as the alloy metal),,higher heat is needed than the Hard Solder.
I have a different Flux for that,,It's labled as 'Brazing Flux' and the metal can is likley 70yrs old,,maybe more.'
Powdered form and used as such.
Sprinkle some on the joint to be Brazed,,,heat the tip of the Brazing Rod and dip it into the can of Flux to cover te end of the Rod with it.
Heat the part to brite Red which melts the flux,,touch the Brazing Rod to the joint,,it melts and flows when it's hot enough.
Kind of the same operation as Hard Soldering,,only done with Brass.
The joint will be stronger because of the material used (brass). But the heat used is higher which sometimes is an issue.
Another term sometimes thrown around in all of this Brazing business is 'Spelter'.
Spelter is an older term for Copper/Zinc/Silver based brazing metals or Hard Solders.
Since they have Copper & Zinc in them,,that is Brass. So they are a Brass alloyed with Silver with (I believe ) lowers the melting point some.
There are hundreds of different alloys of Hard Solder using different mixes to get different melt and flow temps for wide use of applications. Some to avoid certain metals in use such as food industry applications.
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(https://i.imgur.com/2dzu3pSl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/vVgdDJ4l.jpg)