AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: WESTbury on September 27, 2022, 10:39:08 PM
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Has anybody had an opportunity to see the book that features the exhibit of "Lancaster" rifle s at Rock Ford.
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Just received mine a day or two ago. Could not believe that they shipped it on the 22nd and it arrived on the 24th. Someone there must have serious clout at the USPS! Beautiful book and filled with some screamer Lancaster rifles. Great job in my estimation. Worth the money if one is so inclined. No disappointments here.
Dicki
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Thanks for the info and review Dick, appreciate it.
Kent
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Where can one purchase one of the books? Thanks!
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It's available at Historic Rockford's website:
https://historicrockford.org/shop/
Bernie
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I received mine on 9/24, fast shipping, great book
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I'm going to the exhibit on Friday and plan to pick up a copy there...
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Ordered a copy this morning, received an email saying it would be sent out today.
Thanks for the review Dick, you convinced me! And thanks to Louie Parker who has indulged my preference for Lancaster rifles.
Regards,
Carl
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Attended the exhibit Sunday, and picked up the book. Well worth the money.
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Has anybody that has visited the Rock Ford exhibit seen the Turvey rifle? How close can you get to the rifles? I understand that they are under”glass” are they lying down or are they on stands where one can see both sides. It’s an eight hour drive for me and I’m on the fence leaning towards going. Anyone have an idea if the exhibit will be shown in another venue?
Thanks guys,
Richard
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Has anybody that has visited the Rock Ford exhibit seen the Turvey rifle? How close can you get to the rifles? I understand that they are under”glass” are they lying down or are they on stands where one can see both sides. It’s an eight hour drive for me and I’m on the fence leaning towards going. Anyone have an idea if the exhibit will be shown in another venue?
Thanks guys,
Richard
Richard--The link below is for the article in Early American Life about the exhibit and does show some rifles displayed in vertical glass cases. I do not know if all of the rifles are displayed in this manner.
https://historicrockford.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/2204_long_rifles_sm.pdf
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The rifles are in glass cases and you can see both sides. The cases are shown in the bottom picture of the artical
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Hi Richard,
Go by all means. Most guns can be viewed from both sides. The Turvey can be seen very well. Bring a phone with a light or a flashlight so you can illuminate details. You really have to see the Turvey rifle. The impressions I had of the gun from the published photos were changed radically after I saw the gun first hand. Displayed right above it is the Edward Marshall rifle.
dave
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Loved seeing the Turvey, Marshall, and a few old favorites. Lighting such items is challenging. I haven't seen the book but a friend mentioned he was disappointed with the number of views for the money.
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I haven't seen the book but a friend mentioned he was disappointed with the number of views for the money.
That is usually the nature of these books if there are many rifles to depict.
In my opinion the book with the best detailed photos is Bob Lienemann's second book on Moravian gunmakers.
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Looks like I’ll be leaving E. Tennessee early Saturday morning for the days drive to Lancaster. Will viewand photograph hopefully the Turvy rifle and a few Lancaster rifles.
Cheers Richard
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Visited the exhibit this morning: it's well worth the visit. Beautiful rifles beautifully displayed. It's particularly exciting to see the barrel signatures, which are--surprisingly!--often so tiny on that top facet of the barrel. And the site itself--Rock Ford--is really nice. (The exhibit itself isn't in the home pictured here but in a gallery [once a barn] just across the field.)
(https://i.ibb.co/vzyhWzz/IMG-6044.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PCXMyCC)
(https://i.ibb.co/ccK45RH/IMG-6038.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0jpHN1S)
(https://i.ibb.co/nn2sykf/IMG-6037.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VQyWGBD)
(https://i.ibb.co/2ng2qRk/IMG-6035.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BzqDLvC)
(https://i.ibb.co/wyV5Qkg/IMG-6029.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SNbFmjy)
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Visited the exhibit this morning: it's well worth the visit. Beautiful rifles beautifully displayed. It's particularly exciting to see the barrel signatures, which are--surprisingly!--often so tiny on that top facet of the barrel. And the site itself--Rock Ford--is really nice. (The exhibit itself isn't in the home pictured here but in a gallery [once a barn] just across the field.)
Scott--Thanks for posting the photos and your comments.
I read your saga of the Henry Phantom Factory in the Jacobsburg Newsletter. Very interesting and demonstrates how family lore can lead one astray.
Kent
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Looks like I’ll be leaving E. Tennessee early Saturday morning for the days drive to Lancaster. Will viewand photograph hopefully the Turvy rifle and a few Lancaster rifles.
Cheers Richard
Would love to see some good pics of that Turvey rifle!
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Very interesting and demonstrates how family lore can lead one astray.
Nearly always, it seems!
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I was there a few weeks ago. Very nice display, and worth the trip.
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Book arrived in todays mail (ordered Wednesday) well packaged.
Carl
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Thanks to everybody that has replied to this post. Very helpful as well as insightful responses.
I ordered the book on Wed. Hope it arrives soon by Media Mail which is often Super Snail Mail.
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Hi,
I visited the exhibit back in the summer and just got the book. I really like the photos and the guns depicted in the book. However, the text leaves a lot to be desired. It will definitely raise Erik K's blood pressure. Most of the descriptions about British guns and muskets are rubbish. Clearly, the author has not kept up to date with current scholarship on that subject. Whenever anyone describes Brown Besses by models realize they have not kept pace with the history of those guns. Moreover, the Royal Armory Museum published a well sourced paper on the name "Brown Bess" but the Rock Ford book author did not bother updating his knowledge and perpetuated old myths. The description of the battle of King's Mountain as a clash between the Ferguson rifle and Dickert rifles is laughable. Whether you believe a few Ferguson rifles were used at King's Mountain, which is not supported by any unambiguous evidence, or not, to describe the battle as patriots armed with Dickert rifles versus loyalists armed with Ferguson rifles is patently absurd. The author also perpetuates the unsubstantiated story of Timothy Murphy at Bemis Heights and the notion that Dan Morgan ordered Murphy specifically to shoot General Frazer. There is no substantiated documentation that Morgen specifically ordered Murphy to do anything or even knew who he was, and there are no muster rolls that even verify Murphy was at Saratoga. His wife never mentioned his service at Saratoga in her Rev War pension application although she described his other service. The sloppiness of the scholarship about the topics I mentioned casts a pall on the entire work as a reliable historical accounting. The selection of guns was very nice and the photos are excellent, not complete enough for a gun maker, but useful nonetheless. It is worth the money just be skeptical or ignore the text.
dave
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Well, I didn't mention it above, but ... the labels describing the rifles aren't reliable either--at least regarding the gunmakers that I know anything about (and I am sure this unreliability is in the published book as well, though I haven't opened it yet). The Dickert label says he came from a Moravian family (he didn't), the Albrecht label says he arrived in America in the 1760s and moved to Christian's Spring the next year (nope and nope: he arrived in 1750 and moved to Christian's Spring in 1759), etc. etc. These aren't interpretive issues on which people could disagree; they're simple facts and the correct ones are easily available for anybody who bothers or cares.
That said: the rifles are fantastic, the display cases show them beautifully, the exhibit is a rare opportunity to see very important pieces.
Make your way to Lancaster County and get a look!
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Is the contemporary pouch by Gary Birch in the book?
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An X-purt is usually someone from "out of town"or so I've been told ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D.
Bob Roller
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The pouch by Gary Burch is in the book listed as old pouch
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(https://i.ibb.co/BzDDCVx/4-B1-Hqfk3uguw2ms-MInu-EZJV5a-T5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/98XXr9L)
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Hi Erik,
You know the main difference between men and women is that men think the 3 Stooges were funny and women don't.
dave
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Frankly I have no real opinion on whether they were funny or not. I simply know that sooner or later, when presenting facts and documentation as a rebuttal to staunch opinion - especially when expensive items are involved - the debate will devolve into ad hominem attack and I or others will be accused of being a stooge. Thought I'd get ahead of the ball.
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BTW, does the writeup on the Tileston rifle state that it has not been disassembled?
Chew on that one a bit.
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(https://i.ibb.co/BzDDCVx/4-B1-Hqfk3uguw2ms-MInu-EZJV5a-T5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/98XXr9L)
Eric,
You look nice dressed up😁
Dennis
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Frankly I have no real opinion on whether they were funny or not. I simply know that sooner or later, when presenting facts and documentation as a rebuttal to staunch opinion - especially when expensive items are involved - the debate will devolve into ad hominem attack and I or others will be accused of being a stooge. Thought I'd get ahead of the ball.
I'd rather be in the Stooge car, Eric, if that's where you are, than in whatever vehicle The Old Boys Club is traveling in ....
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Relative to the "Tileston" rifle I find it curious that the date "1773" is engraved on the barrel which "coincidently" was the year of the Boston Tea Party in which a Thomas Tileston may have been a participant.
I still have reservations about it being a New England Rifle. Having a cherry stock does not limit a rifle to New England. I've never seen the rifle in person so that's a drawback to my theory about the rifle. Eric has handled it and posted many photos on this forum. So, I would give great weight to his observations and opinions.
Oh yea, the fence of the pan looks to be about 3/16" to the rear of the breech end of the barrel as shown in one of Eric's photos. Kind of odd.
(https://i.ibb.co/wY0kxMw/lxPjrjVw.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Km0P3FL)
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In my estimation, a serious draw back of this book, and a couple of other similar books, is the lack of footnotes. I really do not care what credentials an author has, an author should not expect a serious reader to take their word for facts presented in any reference book.
Absolutely. Any truly competent author should make his sources known. Antique arms books are plagued with opinions (and miscellaneous gun show "lore") expressed as facts.
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Hi Eric,
No the write up says nothing about the rifle having been disassembled.
dave
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Hi,
There is a description of the battle of Trenton and how it was a clash between American riflemen and German jaegers. According to muster rolls, there was one company of 50 German riflemen with Colonel Rall among his force of over 1300 soldiers in Trenton. Moreover, the weather was so bad that no firelocks functioned well. It was no battle between riflemen. It was won by surprise and Henry Knox's overwhelming and well led artillery. Since the author wanted to highlight riflemen, he should have discussed the Second Battle of Trenton (Assunpink Creek) in which Edward Hand's riflemen played a crucial part. In fact, a good claim can be made that it was the most important action involving American riflemen in the entire war and if Hand had failed to delay the British as long as he did, they might have overwhelmed Washington's entire army and trapped it against the frozen Delaware River.
dave
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My wife and I visited Rockford today and I was certainly not disapointed with the firearms display!!! Truly a collection of rifles we've all read about down through the years. Everything is behind glass as it certainly should be; however, I do believe, as a builder and student, its best to study a firearm with your eyes and your hands to truly get a feel for an object originally met to be handled.
As an added bonus, we got to met "flatsguide" there with his wife up all the way from Tennessee!
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Hi Kent,
I have the same feeling about the book but there are just too many preposterous statements to just let it go. They are made worse by the fact that easy fact checking and research would have brought the author up to date and in line with historical evidence. That statement about replacing muskets with rifles was, I am sure, made to emphasize Lancaster gunsmiths' role in arming our early army. However, it completely ignores Springfield and Harper's Ferry arsenals and the fact that those "patriotic" Lancaster gunsmiths gave the US government war department heart burn because of shoddy work and inability to supply the numbers of rifles promised. That is one of the best reasons why I might agree that Lewis and Clark carried prototypes of the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifles rather than modified contract rifles. Many of those contract rifles were so poorly made they would have needed extensive refurbishing. I suspect Merriweather Lewis was scared to death at the thought of carrying such junk on his expedition to the Pacific.
dave
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Probably not. With very rare exceptions we always try to get other opinions on questionable data before a book goes to print. It's taken a long time to come to this conclusion but MANY authors, who know a great deal about their own specialty, know almost nothing about the period they are working in beyond a very myopic view.
I don't know a thing about this author but I'll bet the "museum professionals" that mounted the exhibit know even less.
And Kent, having been through this process yourself and appreciating the REQUIREMENT that all statements of fact must be backed up with primary research, you have every right to be critical.
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Here you go James! Some pics of the Turvey rifleHad a nice visit at Rock Ford and had the pleasure of meeting Bill Wilde and his charming wife. We shared pictures of our current builds. He is building a pretty nice rifle.
Cheers Richard
(https://i.ibb.co/Cbpbzn5/E500-BF8-F-E787-49-F2-96-E4-EAEE190167-A0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jy9yTLv)
(https://i.ibb.co/4JTzTXQ/758678-CB-AB75-4-CA2-999-C-39-CB58-A141-DA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d72F2Vh)
(https://i.ibb.co/HpYm3mg/1217-C502-D6-E6-4-B65-81-E8-6514-F5-B2-D4-E7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VpDX5XB)
(https://i.ibb.co/BCNZzCm/D41-A45-E0-EDDF-4-E81-8222-0522353-BE34-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d5g2W5S)
(https://i.ibb.co/kKJW96w/9991-B374-D53-E-4-F55-B1-AA-ACC5-BDB0-D129.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LSr2Jhc)
(https://i.ibb.co/NF0m9yt/22355027-35-EB-4-A9-F-AF6-A-2-F6-C138-F48-B7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tH0xqJQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/M5b6f0x/A39-A761-B-CC4-E-462-E-92-DE-896641-E84-B23.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6J2B8C7)
(https://i.ibb.co/PNFjpTv/38132846-62-F9-4999-A580-A64642-FB95-A4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QfpQB83)
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As I said in several posts on a few forums a really neat exhibit of guns, several of which I plan to build. I was really tickled to see one of these guns in decent lighting, especially the Shroyer rifle. I snuck a flash light in to the Reading Museum to se it better, risking getting expelled from the museum. Shumways book is good but seeing the gun is better. As well as the Turvey rifle. It is very different in the round than the pictures in the book suggest. Get the museum book if nothing else but the pictures. BJH
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Thanks so much for sharing your visit with us Richard! Give us your take on that Turvey rifle after seeing it up close.
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The Turvey rifle. One needs to have a good imagination to see the rifle as it actually was when it left the Turvey shop, it must have been beautiful and at the top of British gun making art. Today it is well worn, perhaps because it was such a nice rifle that it was the first choice to use. The stock finish is so oxidized that it is virtually impossible to see the wood grain. It has silver furniture. The ornate pierced side plate and wrist escutcheon is well worn so a lot of its original detail is lost but the buttplate tang still shows very nice engraving. The lock is the same and the TURVEY signature is barely visible. The sights. I was really surprised at the sights of the Turvey rifle and most other rifles on display...they are extremely small and very low, some, like on the Turvey rifle 1/16 of an inch high above the barrel, if that much; both front and rear. On the Turvey rifle it looks like the rear sight was installed in a very shallow dovetail and the sight base filed flush to the barrel flats. The notch in the rear sight was a very fine “V” maybe 1/32” wide at most, as it was on most of the other rifles. The front sight was a very low also, a very thin inverted “V”. What was interesting though one was able to “sight” the rifles by lining the sights up looking through the end of the display case. My opinion, as a competition rifle shooter, one could do some very fine shooting with these sights, very interesting I thought. As most of the sights appeared to be non adjustable, I guess the maker just centered the sight on the top flat and as mentioned filed them to be flush with the flats. It gives new meaning to the phrase “Kentucky Windage”.
I may get skewered for this but the caliber of workmanship on most of the rifles on display were nowhere equal to most of the work shown here by you average builder. One must remember though then as today I bet most builders bought their locks and barrels from elsewhere and did the stock works themselves. They most likely worked alone, with no power and very poor light ( although I would not call a north facing window in the summer “poor light”). Probably no gun shows either to compare notes and get constructive criticism. We today are very fortunate to have the kit makers, and Internet to help us build heirloom quality firearms.
I’ll post more photos of the Turvey rifle later.
Cheers Richard
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I may get skewered for this but the caliber of workmanship on most of the rifles on display were nowhere equal to most of the work shown here by you average builder. One must remember though then as today I bet most builders bought their locks and barrels from elsewhere and did the stock works themselves. They most likely worked alone, with no power and very poor light ( although I would not call a north facing window in the summer “poor light”). Probably no gun shows either to compare notes and get constructive criticism. We today are very fortunate to have the kit makers, and Internet to help us build heirloom quality firearms.
Cheers Richard
Richard,
Here is an interesting thread that may interest you regarding your first sentence above.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4606.msg43295#msg43295
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Westbury, thanks it was an interesting thread.
These are the sights I talked about on the Turvey rifle...
(https://i.ibb.co/KWZM2n2/FB4-BC9-A3-8933-4994-9-E57-A2-D501070-A40.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qpGtN6N)
(https://i.ibb.co/vxXGLg3/D8-E3-D5-DA-D99-B-4-D8-D-9-AED-FD780-E47-F400.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8DYpPTr)
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So how much time frame is left to see these great rifles at the Rockford Museum? I may have missed the info somewhere, but it be nice to have the info and location. I certainly would appreciate it, Thanks!
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https://historicrockford.org/long-rifles-of-the-american-revolution/