AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Daniel Coats on April 25, 2023, 07:31:02 PM
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Found at the Knoxville show in 2023. 43 inch swamped barrel 45 caliber at the muzzle but smaller further back. Has not been refreshed. Action functions and rifle feels right and balanced at 10 pounds total. When heel and toe are on the ground the barrel stands vertical where most rifles are at an angle. Solid one piece copper front sight. Overall a wonderful example of a Soddy Daisy style rifle in hunting configuration.
Length of pull 13.5
Height of butt plate 4.37
Width of butt plate 1.450
Length of wrist 6.25
Barrel at breech 1.10
Barrel at waist.915
Barrel at muzzle.960
Wrist width 1.310
Wrist height 1.310
Drop at heel 3.50
Length of patch box 5.250
Width of patch box 1.50
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That’s a dandy, Daniel. Was waiting for more pics after you teased it in the Knoxville thread.
Any back story on her?
Perhaps a bench copy in your future?
Bob
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Bench copy of course! ;D
That's assuming I can stop grinning long enough and set it down!
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Mighty fine old Soddy-Daisy gun, Dan. Good on you for finding it. Y'all folks are lucky to still have shows. We have none anymore. Is this gun signed or marked anywhere? Would be interested to hear. Thank you for letting us see it.
Dick
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Thanks Dick no markings on the lock inside or out. Top flat on the barrel has a suspicious area it looks like there might be markings under the patina but I'm unwilling to scratch it off just to look. No markings under the barrel. Another feature I didn't mention is the lead filled nose cap.
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That's a fine looking rifle, and thanks for the pictures!
You're a Lucky guy for finding it!
John
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You forgot to mention Ole Jack Duprey standing with you... A lot of Soddy guns had that lead filled nose cap. You did good Daniel...
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I got the carbine version of that rifle right there! ;D ;D
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Great find, Dan.
Bob
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That's a nice rifle, the cheekpiece sure is iconic for this type.
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I remember seeing that rifle several year ago. According to the owner it was made in Unicoi County. I have some notes on it somewhere. One of the old timers recognized the maker from the profile. Good seeing it again. Thanks for sharing it. It’s a dandy.
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What a true classic congratulations Sir
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If I chose one rifle to represent a classic southern rifle it would be that one. Congratulations!
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Thanks for all the comments I can't describe how pleased I am with it. I told a few guys this rifle is why I moved to Tennessee in the first place. I bought it on day 2 of a 3 day show and must have walked by it a dozen times without seeing it. When I finally noticed it in a group of southern guns I picked it up gave it a quick once over and never put it back! Some of my Soddy friends hadn't seen it either apparently it was hiding in plain sight. 8)
It seems to have nearly all of the known Soddy Daisy features and I can't imagine it being made anywhere else. I'm still open to comments and opinions however.
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Daniel: You done good my friend. That is definitely a Soddy that anyone would love to own. If it was mine I would be sitting in my chair every evening fondling it.
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With the exception of the lock panel, I like it a lot. Are those large oval panels a characteristic used by a certain gunmaker in that style? I have never seen one like that before. Other than that it has great lines through the butt to triggers.
Robby
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Yes the oval lock panels are a known Soddy Daisy area characteristic. Most people I know don't care for the look and I tend to minimize that feature in my builds as well.
Just one more thing that points to the authenticity and identification of this rifle. I really wish we could tie it to a specific maker and maybe we will in time. Johnny Clemments is a prime suspect and one of the only makers that used a banana shaped patchbox on a Soddy Daisy. He signed his rifles JC which I'm looking for on the top barrel flat. His lock panels look almost identical to my rifle.
There's a nice PDF that can be downloaded 1971-B23-Tennessee-Rifles called Tennessee Rifles by Robin C. Hale page 20 figure 30 and 31 have the Johnny Clemments rifle I'm referring to.
(https://i.ibb.co/QpR2Tyt/PXL-20230426-151751329.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbG0N8z)
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Quoting Robin C. Hale in his Tennessee Rifles article 1971
This rifle (fig. 30) from the Turner Kirklandcollection is typical of guns from the Soddy-Daisy School. The
deeply curved buttplate has a heel which is exaggerated in depth and is almost always V-shaped in cross
section. The stock is usually concave on either side of the comb. Tangs are the same width as the top flat
of the barrel, have parallel sides like a strap, and extend to but not up the face of the comb. The forearm
of the stock is generally diamond-shaped in cross-section, as opposed to the "apple-cheeked" cross section
common to the fore arms of many Tennessee guns. Note the very tight scroll of the triggerguard spur.
The left side of the buttstock (fig. 31) shows the style of cheekpiece typical of this school. Note the basic
similarity of the sideplate to that on the Jacob Gross rifle (fig. 16). Incidentally, Johnny Clements, who I
believe was the maker of this rifle, is the only member of the Soddy-Daisy school that I how of who
occasionally used the banana-shaped patchbox. His guns are signed "J.C.," and he even went so far as to
so-identify his bullet moulds. For a poor but serviceable photograph of one of Johnny Clements rifles, I
refer you to plate 66, #1 of Dillin's Kentucky Rifle.
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Wow Dan that is a cool rifle. Congratulations! Looking forward to seeing a bench copy!
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Cool
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Daniel if only it would have been a flintlock.... Remember ain't no nipples on a mans rifle.....just kidding....great gun you have....
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Daniel if only it would have been a flintlock.... Remember ain't no nipples on a mans rifle.....just kidding....great gun you have....
The words we say that come back to haunt us! :o ;D
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Dan, if I may ask, what is it about this rifle and this type that pulled you in? It's a super cool rifle, but just curious, wondering what you see and potentially (probably) what all I am not seeing due to lack of knowledge of these.
Thanks, Howard.
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Dan, if I may ask, what is it about this rifle and this type that pulled you in? It's a super cool rifle, but just curious, wondering what you see and potentially (probably) what all I am not seeing due to lack of knowledge of these.
Thanks, Howard.
No problem Howard glad you asked. My paternal side of the family lived near the area from about 1800 thru 1850 so this might have been a rifle style they used as hunting rifles. Later the over the log target rifles were well known there and used up to about WWII and some still use them today. To me I like the uniqueness of the Soddy Daisy style and to my eye nothing says southern mountain hog rifle better.
A good deal of credit for my modern interest is owed to Bob McBride and his Black Powder TV videos. I believe Bob did much to popularize these special guns and makers like Jack Duprey have mastered the execution in recreating them. Jack is a personal friend of mine and here's a link to Bob McBride's ALR topic JACK DUPREY - SODDY DAISY & EAST TENNESSEE. I own both of these guns now and sat down with my friend Jack this last weekend going over their characteristics and how to recreate them. In that same ALR topic you will see an original flintlock Soddy Daisy owned by Jack which was the inspiration for several of his builds. Jacks rifle that I own is my inspiration for my builds which really is a living blueprint or pattern if you will. The original rifle I just acquired last weekend will also serve as a blueprint or pattern.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=59817.0
Hope that gives you an idea.
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;) ;).. a signed Soddy match rifle signed "J.C" probably John Clements junior,.. I and several members on this forum have examined this one, and your rifle has many same features,... you have a good'un , Dan and it was great to examine it at the show,... notice especially the lock panels and fish belly lock area,... regards,.. Cades Cove Fiddler,....
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Dan, I was favored to get two of Arnie Dowd's Mountain Rifles. The major piece is a marked 'JC' gun with all of the characteristics that your gun and Dana's have. The second rifle has no connection to this discussion, so I won't mention it now. Arnie's JC does lack the heavy oval lock moulding that most seem to have, but everything else is pretty much the same. I'll try to get some photos posted on here on a new thread, but I think that you are on the right track regarding it being a Cross, Soddy-Daisy rifle. The marks are by the breech/barrel tang and are large Roman letters.
Dick
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I found John Clements in the 1860 census living in Soddy, Hamilton County, District 12 Tennessee. He's listed as born in North Carolina and 41 years old occupation gunsmith. His son also John 19 years old again listed as gunsmith born in Tennessee.
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Does anyone else see a connection with John Clements birthplace as North Carolina and the North Carolina style trigger guard?
I think it's a good clue that my rifle was made by John Clements senior.
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Daniel,
She's a beauty and classic Soddy. Wonderful find. Glad to know she is in someone's hands that appreciates the school. The Soddy school is unique. Just noticed 9 knuckles on the patch box.
Cheers,
Ken
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Ken it's interesting you mentioned the 9 buckle box. I had several comments on it at the show. Jan Riser took photos of the box at the show. I know they're more difficult to make than a simpler version. Does anyone have comments on a 9 buckle box especially how it relates to southern rifles?
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I have seen one other 9 knuckle box and it was a signed John Clements. I see more 7 knuckle boxes. Question: The patchbox spring is bent and screwed to the box bottom, correct? Not the type driven in like a nail.
Ken
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Thank you Dan!
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Ken this one uses screws.
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Thanks for the picture. The single screw sends to be the typical Soddy method.
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Dan, Congratulations on your find! I enjoy looking at and, studying all old Southern rifles. Yours is a gem! As others have stated , the only feature on the Soddy`s that I am not tickled with is, the sow belly style lock moldings . But , the smiths around Soddy did`nt ask or, care what I thought!! LOL Very nice find!
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Dan, Congratulations on your find! I enjoy looking at and, studying all old Southern rifles. Yours is a gem! As others have stated , the only feature on the Soddy`s that I am not tickled with is, the sow belly style lock moldings . But , the smiths around Soddy did`nt ask or, care what I thought!! LOL Very nice find!
Oh my gosh yes they didn't know we would be interested 200 years in the future!!!
The Soddy features help identify the area and even the when and who made it question. This rifle may have been signed but not legible today.
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I'm ready to call this rifle as likely made by John Clements senior in the Soddy Daisy area. Probably post 1840 based on his birth year of about 1819 noted in the 1860 census. Percussion lock appears to be original to the gun in my opinion.
Would anyone else like to comment?
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Daniel, been studying your pics since you originally posted. Is the buttplate flat or is it slightly convex? Hard to tell in the photos.
The nine leaf patch box jumped out at me right away, along with the lock panels. They don’t even match from what I can see. The builder appears to have accommodated the top rear curve of the lock plate on that side, while the bolt side rear panel is more squared off with straighter rear lines.
If a builder did that today without historic evidence, they’d probably be ridiculed. But it all adds to the character and uniqueness of your rifle.
Bob
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Very definitely convex maybe even .250 from the center line. You're right the lock panels are not the same shape side to side but do match other Soddy guns.
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Dan,
That is an absolute beauty! I like everything about it. Great find!
AZshot,
Is that one of yours stocked in oak? Chestnut? Beautiful age on that piece.
John
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I think it's walnut also.
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Hi, it's hard to tell the wood, it's so weathered. I'm thinking walnut.
Thanks. Photos loked like it could be something with a bit longer more open grain. I have a strange affinity for unusual stock woods where the old timers made good use of what they had available to them. Either way, I like the ones that show their age like that. Speaks of an interesting past life.
John
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Lets stay on topic please. This is about Soddy Daisy rifles and one in particular.
Any more thoughts on my rifle?
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Daniel,
The end of the tang has an unused hole. I assume when it split, they drilled a new hole but looking at the picture it doesn't look like there is a corresponding hole in the stock. Is there remains of a hole? No hole might mean the barrel was reused / transferred to a new stock. OR, it doesn't seem to have any countersink so it happened during building or is it threaded inside? Like an attachment point for something else?
Just curious about the extra hole and split. I've seen plenty long tangs broke but a crack/split like that is a new one to me.
Thanks,
Ken
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Thanks Ken for the question!
The extra hole is a mystery to me it's not threaded and does not continue into the wood. The tang itself has been forge welded together at some point. I believe it to be original to the gun because the three screw holes match underneath and there are not any additional holes in the stock.
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Another thought on the unused hole. It might have been a stop drill hole for a crack at the tip. I'll have another look the next time the barrel is out of the channel.
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I was thinking a drill catch during construction. Just move up a little and drill again.
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I was wondering if the guns attributed to John sr. Wouldn’t have more N.C. Features, while John Jr. Being born and raised in Tennessee might have adopt the style of that region. Nothin else to do it rainin’.
Hungry Horse
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Another thought on the unused hole. It might have been a stop drill hole for a crack at the tip. I'll have another look the next time the barrel is out of the channel.
That’s exactly what it looks like to me. A hole drilled to stop that crack from spreading.
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while looking at the tang, are those raised burrs up near the breech? are those from the breech plug being removed many times over the years? Just curious if they are part of it's 'history' or something else?
Oh, and had never noticed the 'oval' shaped lock panel before on other Soddy guns. Most seemed to be more flat profile on the bottom? Or was I just not seeing it before? I was gonna say it was copied from some car makers logo, but of course 'cars' would have been pulled behind a steam engine back then.
And yes, I love the Soddy guns! Built just up the valleys a piece from where my dad was born and raised (in a dirt floor cabin until he was 4), and where I have many great memories from my childhood.
I always enjoy seeing another original from the area.
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Burrs on the tang near the breech are indeed part of the rifles history. Impossible to know how many times the plug was removed but could have been damaged if done incorrectly one time. The nipple was replaced during it's history so the plug might have been removed at that time to see if the rifle was safe to shoot. The plug might also have been damaged by not removing the drum first. I'm not ever going to shoot it or check if it can be.
Not all Soddy guns had oval lock panels (viewed from the side) but it was a common feature. It is flat on the bottom where the triggers and guard are located. I can take more pictures if there's enough interest in that feature.
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I was wondering if the guns attributed to John sr. Wouldn’t have more N.C. Features, while John Jr. Being born and raised in Tennessee might have adopt the style of that region. Nothin else to do it rainin’.
Hungry Horse
Yes maybe huh?
Here's part of page 2 of this topic where I quoted Robin C. Hale in his Tennessee Rifles article 1971
"For a poor but serviceable photograph of one of Johnny Clements rifles, I
refer you to plate 66, #1 of Dillin's Kentucky Rifle."
I bought the book just so I could see the picture he was talking about. It's the top rifle in the photo below.
(https://i.ibb.co/MsgnBWN/PXL-20230503-165922715.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XbWXYNJ)
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I'm doing a little research in Ancestry and found a few things.
John Clements born in NC about 1819 died near Soddy 1875 occupation gunsmith. 1840 census no luck yet finding him but several possibilities various spellings etc. 1850 census near Soddy occupation blacksmith 1860 census near Soddy occupation gunsmith.
His son John Clements 1841-1896 born near Soddy occupation gunsmith.
Interesting another son James Clements 1847-1928 occupation blacksmith.
John Sr bought land Soddy, Hamilton County, Tennessee 8 Dec 1842
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Two more pictures today of the lock and triggers to help identify the maker and help date the rifle.
If it's John Clements Sr then it's probably post 1840. If it's John Clements Jr then it's probably post 1860.
Opinions are welcome.
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I've had two Clements rifles. I purchased them in eastern Marion County in Whitwell. Neither had a patchbox, both had 44 inch long barrels and were .36 - .38 caliber, also had identical nosecaps.
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Just curious if those would have been a 'bought' lock and triggers at the time, or handmade by the gunmaker? I suppose it may depend on the exact time frame when it was built?
Still trying to get some ideas about how the area was getting 'settled'
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My guess is the lock and triggers are store bought but may have been modified just like builders of today. What I'm sure of is there are no markings. The overall quality of the rifle is better than the average Soddy I've handled and does not appear to be a restock or converted from flint.
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My observation for today. Both the tang and the toe plate were made by forge welding two pieces together. Could be from scavenging material during the original build especially the toe plate. The tang might be from scavenging also since it doesn't look the same as some parts of the rifle.
The breech plug might not be original because the area just in front of it will trap a patch. The rust on the lock doesn't look as old as the barrel at the breech. The wood at the top of the lock plate has either worn away or wasn't there to begin with if it was originally flintlock. I don't think the lock on the gun was originally flintlock and seems to fit the mortise well.
If it is a Clements gun then it would seem unlikely it was ever flint because of census analysis indicating it's at least post 1840.
Help me out here boys?
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Do you think it was flint originally?
Who do you think built the rifle?
When do you think it was made?
Where do you think it was made?
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;) ;).. I'll stick with my observations I made there in Knoxville when I first examined this rifle .... was always a cap gun,...made by John Clements Jr. around 1870-80 in his shop near Soddy,... a nice example and you are fortunate to have it,.... regards ,.. Cades Cove Fiddler
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Thank you Dana!
John Clements Jr is on the 1880 census near Soddy with his occupation listed as gunsmith.
I'm convinced you're correct and appreciate the second look.