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General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 01:47:51 AM

Title: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 01:47:51 AM
The last couple of days I have been reviewing an ALR thread centered on the Sister Rifle. That thread ran for 11 months Nov. 25, 2017 to Oct. 25, 2018. It is a very interesting and informative read. I've attached a link to below.

What caught my eye was a post by Mike Brooks (Reply #156 Oct 22 2018) in which he states "I also believe that the only signed Albrecht gun is a restocked gun done by Dickert." Mike is a highly knowledgeable and perceptive member of the ALR so his views are looked forward to on this Forum.

What surprised me was, even though the thread centered on the Sister Rifle, Mike's statement of his views relative to RCA 46 elicited absolutely no response.

Perhaps the subject has been the focus of another thread so if that is the case, perhaps some member of the ALR would be so kind to point me in that direction.

Thanks in advance,
Kent

 https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=l8kaqhu5d4g0c8drqk9h8bc8l4&topic=46709.0
   
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 02:20:50 AM
PS!

I forgot to add that I agree with him. Comparing RCA 46 to RCA 48 and RCA 49 clearly demonstrates that the butt carvings are clearly extremely similar. Shumway points this out in his write-up of RCA 46. But, that is a small point and far from definitive.

My only reference as to what an Albrecht rifle may look like are some of those detailed in Bob Lienemann's second book as being stocked in Christiansbrunn. Bob uses the label "Attributed" to Albrecht or Oerter to identify those rifles. I think the known rifles stocked by Oerter make give us a hint of what an Albrecht rifle would look like. After all Albrecht taught Oerter. I find the premise that, when Albrecht moved to Lititz he completely changed his approach to stocking rifles in favor of the Lancaster pattern, as somewhat of a stretch.

I've been studying the Lancaster rifles very intently the past four years, which still makes me a Cherry compared to most on the ALR. I've developed a deep interest in Lancaster rifles and I hope that some comments will enlighten me to one degree or another.

Kent
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: rich pierce on June 24, 2023, 04:00:28 AM
Kent, that rifle is of course very interesting. As you probably know Albrecht moved to Lititz and with that in mind and the rifle of interest in hand, some reasoned that when he moved to the Lancaster area Albrecht made Lancaster style rifle(s). “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”

If I’m recalling correctly, at one time this gun was a buttstock and a barrel. Unfortunately any one-off rifle that is different from what we’d expect (in this case something that looks like the Oerter rifles) is hard to nail down 100% to everyone’s standards for attribution. There’s always been some amount of “probably could be” or “probably is” equals “Yep, he made it!”  The Wolfgang Haga attributions are perhaps the best example of this.

Just my views and rambling.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 04:57:03 AM
Rich,

Thanks for your reply, appreciate it.

I've read Scott's paper on Albrecht a couple of times. It usually takes me at least two readings for it to penetrate my thick head.

What struck me was that Albrecht seems to have not been very successful after leaving the Sun Tavern in 1771 and setting up shop in Lititz. Or at least that appears to be so due to the lack of identifiable rifles by him. From Scott's paper I learned that Albrecht was supposed to have help getting business funneled his way by William Henry in Pittsburgh, which never panned out. But he did have some pretty stiff competition from not a few established and successful gun stockers in Lancaster.

I'm guessing that after having been out of the rifle building business for an extended period of time in the 1760's, his notoriety as a gunsmith had faded and I'm sure that the remoteness of Christiansbrunn from Lancaster may have helped to erase his fame. That's just my speculation though.

In any event, I would recommend Scott Gordon's papers on Albrecht and Dickert from the Immigrant Entrepreneurship. I have gained an appreciation for what those early gunstockers were up against.
https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/johann-andreas-albrecht/
 
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: B.Barker on June 24, 2023, 06:08:58 AM
I think Alan Gutches did the restoration on that rifle. Not positive but I think that was one of the rifles he told me about more than several years back.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 24, 2023, 01:31:50 PM
What struck me was that Albrecht seems to have not been very successful after leaving the Sun Tavern in 1771 and setting up shop in Lititz. Or at least that appears to be so due to the lack of identifiable rifles by him. From Scott's paper I learned that Albrecht was supposed to have help getting business funneled his way by William Henry in Pittsburgh, which never panned out. But he did have some pretty stiff competition from not a few established and successful gun stockers in Lancaster.

I'm guessing that after having been out of the rifle building business for an extended period of time in the 1760's, his notoriety as a gunsmith had faded and I'm sure that the remoteness of Christiansbrunn from Lancaster may have helped to erase his fame. That's just my speculation though.

I suspect that it was the "stiff competition," as you say, from nearby gunsmiths that made it a challenge for Albrecht to set himself up as a gunsmith in Lancaster County and led Moravian authorities try to solve the problem of what they called his "lack of work."

I don't know that he had any "fame" as a gunsmith when he had been at Christiansbrunn. Except for one Shawnee, who recalled in 1754 that Albrecht had stocked a gun for him in 1752, no evidence indicates that anybody knew who Albrecht was or could tell his work from anybody else's work. We know now that he was a master gunsmith, a stand-out among his peers, but did people think that then? I myself doubt it.

Maybe, if he did make the stock of the rifle that has the signed "ALBRECHT" barrel, he adjusted his "style" to tailor his products to the tough new market he found himself in in Lancaster County? Speculation. But possible. I think it's more likely that, as Mike Briggs suggested, it's a barrel that Albrecht proofed in somebody else's stock.

Remember, too, that since his arrival in America in 1750 Albrecht had never had to worry about "marketing" his products. He worked in a managed economy in Bethlehem and Christiansbrunn that supplied all his needs (food, clothing, housing); he did not sell his own work or earn any money from it. That wasn't the case in Lititz and he struggled.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: DaveM on June 24, 2023, 02:55:43 PM
Kent, first, I am glad I am not the only one somewhat addicted to the old RCA books, I have studied those countless times - wouldn’t it be cool if a volume 3 and 4 were produced adding the other known early guns!

As to your line of thinking, in RCA Shumway writes that the butt plate s as large as they come. And seeing the gun in person I agree it looks early. So n my mind, unless there was evidence of it being a restock in some way not mentioned in thebook, I see no reason to assume it was restocked.

I agree the carving looks visually almost the same as Dickert carving. It raises questions:
Did the early local makers share carving patterns?
Did the two men work together - perhaps Albrecht assisting Dickert when he was not busy,or vice versa?
Did Dickert really do the carving on his guns? Or is the carving on his guns done by others he worked with at a particular time?
Were there “style shifts” in certain places at certain times?

I always considered the oerter guns ahead of their time in design. Maybe Albrecht rifles never looked anything like those and maybe Oerter created his own style.

I agree with you that the Lancaster made guns can be an entire study of themselves. They could probably fill two volumes of RCA type books. Lancaster was a real gunmaking centerfor the colonies. I would imaging early makers looking for a market would automaticallly be drawn to Lancaster at that time.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 24, 2023, 03:04:18 PM
Did the two men work together - perhaps Albrecht assisting Dickert when he was not busy,or vice versa?

This is unlikely, but of course possible. The Lititz diary would record Albrecht traveling to Lancaster or Dickert visiting Lititz and, though we may have missed something, we haven't found that it records this information.

Henry Albrecht, however, worked with Jacob Dickert for six months in 1792 after he left Lititz (where he was training to be a joiner under William Henry II). By 1792, Andreas Albrecht himself was "retired" from the gunmaking trade.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 03:32:07 PM
Kent, first, I am glad I am not the only one somewhat addicted to the old RCA books, I have studied those countless times - wouldn’t it be cool if a volume 3 and 4 were produced adding the other known early guns!

As to your line of thinking, in RCA Shumway writes that the butt plate s as large as they come. And seeing the gun in person I agree it looks early. So n my mind, unless there was evidence of it being a restock in some way not mentioned in thebook, I see no reason to assume it was restocked.

Dave,
Thanks for your insight, appreciate it!
I've never had the opportunity to study any of these rifles in any meaningful except for photos in books. That's really not the way to do it in any reliable way.
I've got to convince my wife that I need to take up residence in Lancaster for an extended period.

As to the barrel of the extensively restore "Albrecht" rifle, I think it would been interesting, at least for me, to compare its "construction" and finishing techniques with an Oerter signed barrel. That approach, of course, probably would not be definitive at all, but perhaps yield some results as to where it was manufactured/purchased. We know, thanks to Bob L. and Scott, that the Christiansbrunn facility purchased rifle components for rifles even though equipment for making complete rifles existed in Chritiansbrunn.

I'm just thinking out loud know and perhaps the two cups of coffee I just consumed are interfering with my brain's logic centers.

Kent

Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Mike Brooks on June 24, 2023, 05:34:01 PM
I have read that Dickert went hot footin it over to CS looking for barrels while Albrecht was there. I figure that is one of the two barrels he went hot footin back with and Albrecht had already signed it. Dickert obviously didn't think it was an issue as long as he got the gun built.
 I'm sure all the swells around here don't take me seriously so take my observations for what they are worth. ;)

OR.....it's possible that Abrecht barrel got stuck together with that Dickert stock relic to make it more "saleable" in the 40's (19 that is ;))
 Anything is possible, But that stock is Dickert.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 05:57:56 PM
I have read that Dickert went hot footin it over to CS looking for barrels while Albrecht was there. I figure that is one of the two barrels he went hot footin back with and Albrecht had already signed it. Dickert obviously didn't think it was an issue as long as he got the gun built.
 Anything is possible, But that stock is Dickert.

Mike --Appreciate your input on this. I was hoping you would chime in on this.
 
We do know that Dickert is on the books at Christiansbrunn as owing money. If barrels were available it is quite possible/probable that Dickert purchased them as well as other rifle components, as barrels, along with locks, are labor intensive rifle components and obtaining finished barrels would have been a priority.

Kent
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 24, 2023, 06:04:29 PM
Dickert owed the Christiansbrunn gunshop for 18 rifle barrels in 1777--a decade after Albrecht left the gunshop. (He didn't owe them in 1776, so this was not a long-standing debt.)

Since I don't believe that what we recognize as regional styles (shape of stock) were actually recognized (or cared about: as if somebody "preferred" Lancaster stock profile to Northampton County stock profile) in the eighteenth century, I think Mike's conviction that the stock is by Dickert is a more likely possibility than Albrecht switched his style to adjust to the style in a new location.


(https://i.ibb.co/Xx0y7jz/IMG-2896-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7tMgnjG)
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 06:18:09 PM
Dickert owed the Christiansbrunn gunshop for 18 rifle barrels in 1777--a decade after Albrecht left the gunshop. (He didn't owe them in 1776, so this was not a long-standing debt.)

True enough but does that preclude Dickert from having purchasing barrels at other dates? I realize the answer would be speculative.

Relative to the buttplate width, Shumway has the buttplate of RCA 46 (Albrecht) at 2-3/16" x 5-1/4", RCA 49 (Dickert) at 2-1/4" x 5-1/4", and RCA 50 (Dickert) at 2-1/4" x 5".
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 24, 2023, 06:24:21 PM
Dickert owed the Christiansbrunn gunshop for 18 rifle barrels in 1777--a decade after Albrecht left the gunshop. (He didn't owe them in 1776, so this was not a long-standing debt.)

True enough but does that preclude Dickert from having purchasing barrels at other dates? I realize the answer would be speculative.

No, it doesn't preclude that. There's no trace of that in the Christiansbrunn records, but if he paid for them immediately/quickly the charge would not show up on the annual inventories or in the outstanding debts. (This is why we need a Daybook so badly!)

But this purchase of the 18 rifle barrels seems part of the urgency of arms production in 1776, and I don't believe Dickert purchased--or would have purchased--these barrels in the early 1760s. Nor do I believe that Albrecht was signing barrels in the 1760s.

It's just about this time (1776-1777) that Dickert and John Henry establish a gun boring mill in Lancaster County.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Mike Brooks on June 24, 2023, 06:24:34 PM
Dickert owed the Christiansbrunn gunshop for 18 rifle barrels in 1777--a decade after Albrecht left the gunshop. (He didn't owe them in 1776, so this was not a long-standing debt.)

True enough but does that preclude Dickert from having purchasing barrels at other dates? I realize the answer would be speculative.

Relative to the buttplate width, Shumway has the buttplate of RCA 46 (Albrecht) at 2-3/16" x 5-1/4", RCA 49 (Dickert) at 2-1/4" x 5-1/4", and RCA 50 (Dickert) at 2-1/4" x 5".
My reference to two barrels that Dickert bought came from one of the Moravian books. Can't remember which. Also, on a different tangent, I believe most all of these gun builders were buying sand cast brass mounts from the local founder. That's why all the mounts in a particular "school" look somewhat similar. It's all about how you operate your file. There were some exceptions of course.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 24, 2023, 06:32:07 PM
But this purchase of the 18 rifle barrels seems part of the urgency of arms production in 1776, and I don't believe Dickert purchased--or would have purchased--these barrels in the early 1760s. Nor do I believe that Albrecht was signing barrels in the 1760s.

I should have added that Dickert may have obtained more than 18 barrels from Christiansbrunn--since the document noting the debt for 18 barrels says "remaining still" and the next year's account, 1778, notes that Dickert still owes for 2 barrels. (These must be the two barrels that Mike is thinking of?--Bob L. mentions them in Moravian Gunmaking I)

So he may have bought even more than 18 in mid/late 1776, paying off some; still owed for 18 in May 1777; and still owed for 2 in May 1778.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 07:03:27 PM
Scott,

There are three signed pistols made by Albrecht while he was still in Germany, one illustrated in Bob's second volume, so Albrecht does not seem to have been adverse to signing the fruits of his labor at some point. Perhaps it was some guild requirements for him identifying himself as the maker.

Was there something in Moravian doctrine that would have discouraged him from signing firearms he built in Christiansbrunn? I do realize that the Moravians were working for the good of the community and not the individual's benefit. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this as you, as well as Bob, have the expertise on Moravians.

Kent
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 24, 2023, 07:08:33 PM
Was there something in Moravian doctrine that would have discouraged him from signing firearms he built in Christiansbrunn? I do realize that the Moravians were working for the good of the community and not the individual's benefit.

No, despite what others have written, there was nothing that would have prohibited or discouraged Albrecht from signing his work. Other Moravian craftsmen--during the communal economy and afterwards--signed their work (John Antes, the instrument maker).

I think the question really ought to be: why would Albrecht have signed his work in the 1750s and 1760s? Was anybody else doing so? I believe craftsmen signed their work because they were required to--either by a guild (as you suggest), or by other authorities, to certify quality or so buyers could trace the product back to makers in case of a problem. Moravian authorities required their hatter to put labels in his hat when other people were passing off shoddy product as Moravian-made. I think Oerter began to sign his rifles for some similar reason--just as many regulations for mass produce locks or barrels required the maker's name. Also, it is much more likely that one would sign a product that was going beyond a community (where the maker was not known) than one that stayed in the community or was produced for friends (who would know the maker).

I've posted about this so often on this forum that I suspect people are tired of hearing this perspective.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 24, 2023, 07:14:54 PM
There are three signed pistols made by Albrecht while he was still in Germany, one illustrated in Bob's second volume, so Albrecht does not seem to have been adverse to signing the fruits of his labor at some point. Perhaps it was some guild requirements for him identifying himself as the maker.

Also--I am not at home with the book in front of me--but didn't Bob's write-up about the pistol with the Albrecht-signed lock that he included in MG II indicate that there's another A. Albrecht, gunmaker, in Germany in and after 1750 (when our A. Albrecht was in Bethlehem) who may have made this pistol? I didn't think (but could be wrong) that we know that our A. Albrecht produced and signed three pistols before he emigrated to America.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 07:38:48 PM
There are three signed pistols made by Albrecht while he was still in Germany, one illustrated in Bob's second volume, so Albrecht does not seem to have been adverse to signing the fruits of his labor at some point. Perhaps it was some guild requirements for him identifying himself as the maker.

Also--I am not at home with the book in front of me--but didn't Bob's write-up about the pistol with the Albrecht-signed lock that he included in MG II indicate that there's another A. Albrecht, gunmaker, in Germany in and after 1750 (when our A. Albrecht was in Bethlehem) who may have made this pistol? I didn't think (but could be wrong) that we know that our A. Albrecht produced and signed three pistols before he emigrated to America.

I have not been able to find an explicit statement by Bob in MGII that "our Albrecht", as Bob identifies him, made the pistol illustrated in MGII. I guess we will give Bob a C.Y.A. on this one. ;D Although, why illustrate the pistol at all if there was a possibility that another A. Brecht made it. Bob needs to explain himself. ::)
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 24, 2023, 07:50:51 PM
Well, given that there *is* another gunsmith named A ALBRECHT in Germany at the same time, there’s certainly a possibility that the pictured pistol was made by him. But how one would weigh probabilities … I’ll defer to Bob on that!
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 24, 2023, 08:03:17 PM
Well Albrecht did clearly sign at least one lock in the 1750s (or at least, while he was working in Bethlehem).

The Albrecht rifle is so heavily restored - as are many rifles - that it's almost impossible to determine tool technological evidence and process etc.  Yes, it looks like a Dickert however what was left of the original tang carving *seems* to display the small triangular flat behind the squared tang which is not something I have seen on Dickert rifles.  It generally seems to be a very noticeable characteristic of Oerter's work and Bob and I have discussed this as it's not something. commonly seen - certainly not the extent it's seen on rifles that have been attributed to CS.  Lion/lamb and two tailed dog rifle included.

There are no pre-War *dated* Dickert rifles other than those we have assumed for years are pre-War.  So it's all speculative.  For all we know, Albrecht moved down to Lititz with this stock style/carving design etc in mind and he ended up influencing Dickert as opposed to the opposite.  Likely?  Probably not, but there is no way to know.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: blienemann on June 24, 2023, 08:18:34 PM
Kent and all, in MGM II p 63 "The pistol illustrated here was made by another man - but it is from the period and the part of Germany that our Andreas Albrecht and Valentin Beck traveled." The early rifle and this pistol were included to show what Albrecht and Beck were exposed to in terms of design, and what they may have brought with them to this country.

Regarding the one rifle with A Albrecht on the barrel, I believe this is AA's work after he moved to Lititz. Like Dave, I see no indication of a restock. It is a short jump in design from the Marshall rifle, #43 and Oerter's work in wire with the large C scroll and flourish above to the large C scroll and smaller C scroll above in and around Lancaster. The design on #46 signed A Albrecht is drawn and executed so well. Dickert's work is similar, but often squashed with other details added, and only occasionally looks this good to my eye.

There is speculation in all of this, but a signed barrel in a rifle is as good as we have thus far. Bob
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 24, 2023, 11:24:05 PM
Bob,

Thanks for the clarification on the pistol and your thoughts regarding the carving on the rifle in question. As you are very painfully aware, I know nothing about stock carvings.

I'll get back to you on this. So far, my feet are still on Mike's side of the fence.

Kent
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 25, 2023, 05:49:46 PM


The Albrecht rifle is so heavily restored - as are many rifles - that it's almost impossible to determine tool technological evidence and process etc.  Yes, it looks like a Dickert however what was left of the original tang carving *seems* to display the small triangular flat behind the squared tang which is not something I have seen on Dickert rifles.  It generally seems to be a very noticeable characteristic of Oerter's work and Bob and I have discussed this as it's not something. commonly seen - certainly not the extent it's seen on rifles that have been attributed to CS.  Lion/lamb and two tailed dog rifle included.


Eric,
Thanks your thoughtful analysis and the info info relative to the remnant of the tang carving.
Kent
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 25, 2023, 06:37:43 PM
It's something Bob and I have discussed previously.  You can see the little 'triangle' in Oerter's work (it's almost a necessity when using wire around that area) and you can very clearly see it on the lion/lamb rifle and #42, somewhat on #43 (lots of wear).  Also the "Rochester rifle" that was auctioned a year or two ago.  And the Marshall rifle.  42 and the lion/lamb rifle probably have the clearest, most easily visible examples of it.

When it comes to all these attributions and speculations that we throw around all the time, I feel that it's very important to look for small or almost insignificant details that might be found across multiple rifles.  Maybe they mean something, or maybe not, but it's a place to start.  I don;t know how Scott feels about this - I know we've discussed here the concept of regional style and whether or not various customers or gunstockers may have been aware of it in the sense that we view it now almost omnisciently - but I firmly believe that during and after the Revolution, people all over SE PA were much more aware of what gunstockers in areas outside of their small regional sphere of existence were doing. 

Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 25, 2023, 06:43:04 PM
The more I think about it, this rifle *has the potential* to represent probably one of the earliest if not the earliest example of a gunstocker adapting to the 'expected' style of a region.  We like to talk about this concept all the time but there are not many concrete examples of it, certainly not pre-War or even pre-19th century.  What is unfortunate is that the only signed - and thus documentable - example of Albrecht's work while in either Bethlehem or CS is the signed, converted lock.  So honestly while we may like to speculate as to whether or not he stocked say the Marshall rifle or 42 or 43 or lion/lamb etc., since they're not signed we really can't say for certain.  So we can only assume that he might have changed up his stocking and decorative design after moving to Lititz.  But we can't KNOW.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 25, 2023, 07:03:26 PM
Eric,

Thanks, your replies are the ones I been hoping for.

Appreciate all of your remarks.

Kent
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 25, 2023, 08:36:59 PM
The more I think about it, this rifle *has the potential* to represent probably one of the earliest if not the earliest example of a gunstocker adapting to the 'expected' style of a region. 

This is something I was interested a couple of years ago and I may or may not have raised a question about with Bob L. Scott discusses Albrecht's difficulties as relating to his rifle stocking business level in the 1770's. I'm guessing that his apprentices, Levering and Weiss, may have left as a result.***

Albrecht needed something to boost his income so adapting to local customer expectations may have seemed the prudent approach.

Speculation of course.

** Scott did write that they left because Oerter was ill
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 25, 2023, 08:54:01 PM
The wildest speculation, in my opinion, is that customers in Lancaster County expected or preferred rifles with particular features, like the stock profile we identify today. There is no evidence from anywhere in early America than anybody anywhere cared about or even recognized such things, let alone made consumer decisions on the basis of them.

Albrecht’s apprentices were relocated a half-decade later, when Christian’s Spring needed men to help with the musket quota imposed on the county. He was having difficulties finding customers in 1771: his apprentices were still there in 1775. I think it’s best to think about gunmaking apprentices in the Moravian context as important because a new generation was being trained, rather than that they were there to increase the amount of product (or to enable the master craftsmen to meet demand). There was never much demand, it seems.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 25, 2023, 09:13:47 PM
Although, thinking out load here, if Albrecht did adapt to Lancaster style rifles why did he not go full bore and use the Daisy Patchbox?  He only went 90% of the distance.

I think that it is impossible to get inside the heads of these old rifle stockers. They were businessmen though so adaptation to markets is important.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: rich pierce on June 25, 2023, 10:32:49 PM
Although, thinking out load here, if Albrecht did adapt to Lancaster style rifles why did he not go full bore and use the Daisy Patchbox?  He only went 90% of the distance.

I think that it is impossible to get inside the heads of these old rifle stockers. They were businessmen though so adaptation to markets is important.
The earliest English trade rifles (I said rifles not trade guns; I only add this because from time to time there’s confusion) have been described as patterned after Lancaster rifle (s) with wooden patch box(es).  There are several Lancaster-attributed longrifles with wooden boxes. A rifle with a wooden box may have cost a small amount less than one with an engraved brass 4-piece box. Just speculation.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 25, 2023, 11:33:41 PM
I think that it is impossible to get inside the heads of these old rifle stockers. They were businessmen though so adaptation to markets is important.

I agree that the term "businessman" probably fit somebody like Dickert. But I'd like to hear a case made that we should think of Albrecht as a businessman, since:

Albrecht deliberately chose for most of his adult life--until he was in his mid-fifties--to live in a community in which he could not make any profit whatsoever. He choose, presumably for spiritual reasons, to live in a place where he would never sleep alone (but, instead, in a room filled with other people); where his meals, while guaranteed, would be meager, at best; where others made his marriage choice for him--and, most important here, where others would decide who his apprentices were and what happened to the things he produced and where others earned the profit from his own industry. He chose to make no money.

Did this all change, as if a switch was flipped, when he moved to Lititz in 1771 at the age of 53? Maybe? Some people in Moravian communities left because they could not tolerate economic constraints and wanted to make money. But this does not seem to have been the case with Albrecht (he expressed full satisfaction with the economic arrangements earlier). In Lititz he had to find a way to make a living (for the first time), since no communal economy existed to support him. 

So would he have adjusted to prevailing styles? Would it have even occurred to him that, by adjusting the stock profile and other non-functional details, his sales would have improved? Or would he have recognized that his problem arose because he was (for the first time) competing with a very large number of competent and in some cases prolific gunsmiths in his proximity? Adjusting the profiles of his stocks would not really give anybody a reason to haul themselves to Lititz to purchase a rifle. It seems highly unlikely, anyway.

This rifle under discussion, with the barrel alone signed by Albrecht, is the only reason anybody would even imagine that Albrecht did adapt his style. Indeed, if I understand correctly, the only reason it is dated after 1771 is because of the Albrecht barrel and the unexpected Lancaster-style: all this reasoning is a bit circular, no? Maybe he made this rifle, on a whim, in 1760 when he was still in Christian's Spring?

So, sure it's possible that he adjusted his style after his mid-life move to Lititz. But this rifle is thin evidence, especially coupled with the problem that we don't even know that consumers cared about or made decisions about what they purchased based on regional styles (any more than we care about the shape of functional object, a toilet or a suitcase, that we buy).
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: DaveM on June 26, 2023, 12:16:32 AM
I suppose anything is possible but in my mind it is a given that the barrel matches the stock. The barrel appears to be a perfect fit and is 1-5/32 across the flats.

My sense is that folks at the time (at least the other makers) knew exactly what dickert was making. Dickert was well known and had a strong market with a product that was known even beyond Pennsylvania and into England. And I would assume that a reasonably savvy builder strugglng with his market share would try to make a product to suit that market. That may be the reason he moved to Lancaster County in the first place.

It would seem to me that this is the only surviving legit gun signed by this maker.  Yet other unsigned rifles that are not signed are attributed to him. And the attributions don’t look like his signed gun.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 26, 2023, 12:25:31 AM
Ok, let's assume that this entire rifle is Albrecht's. Let's also assume that he knew Dickert's work, as Dave says.

Option A: He decided to experiment with a Dickert-style rifle in 1764 at Christiansbrunn--maybe made quite a few, for that matter.
Option B: He switched to making Dickert-style rifles after moving to Lancaster in 1771.

How do we going about assessing the probability of A vs. B?


And there are other possibilities, all of them equally possible as B:

Option Aa: He asked Oerter, his apprentice, to make a Dickert-type gun, as an educational exercise.

Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: DaveM on June 26, 2023, 12:40:46 AM
Maybe an option C could be that Dickert, being an acquaintance, helped to integrate Albrecht into Lancaster County gunmaking to increase his customer base by working with him and providing templates?
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 26, 2023, 01:02:14 AM
I do not see any reason to view this rifle as a restock, this after viewing it first-hand.  Caveat - I never saw it prior to restoration.

This is the only rifle believed 'legit' as Dave notes actually signed by Albrecht.  The Bethlehem lock is also signed by him and (I believe) legitimate.  Attributing anything else to him is admittedly speculation.  All of the speculation generally ties back to the signed Oerter rifles 1775/76, and flows from there.

My personal opinion is that he moved down to Lancaster Co and 'when it Rome...'  Whether it was Dickert setting the trend, or someone else, no clue. 

I remain convinced that at least by the first couple of War years, gunstockers were aware of what gunstockers in other parts of PA at least (if not an either wider net) were aware of what other gunstockers were doing and *recognized particular differences.*. Whether this was happening earlier, I have no idea. 

We all do also need to keep in mind that we have no clue concerning the survival rate of rifles ca. 1750-1800 nor do we really know whether some of these guys were cranking out 50 a year or 10 a year or 1 a year.  For this reason I don't think we can call any one more prolific than another and there is really no way - to my mind - to determine who may have been trendsetting vs who may have simply been plodding along.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 26, 2023, 01:05:44 AM
The underlying problem in any such discussion, as always, is that we are trying to recreate a linear, historic development of the automobile having only excavated a tire, a few pistons and perhaps a rear view mirror.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 26, 2023, 01:07:59 AM
The Lititz authorities discussed what Albrecht was going to do to make a living: they recommended advertising his work and, with the help of others, finding new markets for it out west. (Read here: https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/johann-andreas-albrecht/) They did not mention that he was going to adjust his work, let alone any collaboration with Dickert, which they surely would have given that Dickert was a well-known Moravian from Lancaster. Nor is such a collaboration ever mentioned later. Moravian diaries often mention the movement of one gunsmith to work with another elsewhere, such as when Nathaniel Hantsch leaves the Upper Places to work with an (unnamed) gunsmith in Lancaster or when Albrecht's son stops at Dickert's for a while to study after he leaves Nazareth.

So, sure, it's possible--it's possible, too, that Dickert learned Albrecht's little "tell" and made the stock on this rifle and then attached it to a barrel that Albrecht made.

Any explanation that has Albrecht caring about his "market share" transforms this religious zealot, this die-hard Moravian, who participated in the most radical moment of the church in the late 1740s (a moment that even Zinzendorf disowned), and who explicitly shared their fervent anti-capitalism and anti-wealth ideology, into a modern capitalist who cares about all the things that he didn't care about.

He cared about make a living in Lititz, that's for sure, and gunsmithing wasn't working. I cannot believe that tinkering with a stock profile would be imagined as a good strategy.

BTW, we have some good information, too, about why Albrecht moved to Lititz (and whether that was his first choice). It would a be a puzzling market strategy to move to Lancaster County to make exactly the sort of rifles that were already plentifully available there.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 26, 2023, 01:11:27 AM
I remain convinced that at least by the first couple of War years, gunstockers were aware of what gunstockers in other parts of PA at least (if not an either wider net) were aware of what other gunstockers were doing and *recognized particular differences.*. Whether this was happening earlier, I have no idea.

I don't doubt this at all--that gun stockers in different areas were aware of what each other was doing (though it takes some work to imagine how they would have seen each others' products: but I agree that it's likely).

My point has always been about the customers and whether they (a) recognized these styles or (b) cared about them and made their choices as buyers on the basis of them.

Book designers can tell you a whole history of type-faces and fonts and how some derived from others and when certain ones were popular where. But I don't think any book buyer (of novels, say) ever made a choice of a book on the basis of its type-face. So (a) differences can be real, and important to makers and (b) invisible to customers. Both things can be true.

The (big) mistake would be for book designers of type-faces to think that book buyers are making their choices based on type-faces.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 26, 2023, 01:15:19 AM
My personal opinion is that he moved down to Lancaster Co and 'when it Rome...'  Whether it was Dickert setting the trend, or someone else, no clue. 

Eric -- So, given that we have this one object, undated, what leads you to think it was made after 1771 in Lititz and not as an imitation of a Lancaster-style rifle in Christiansbrunn in 1764?
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 26, 2023, 02:02:31 AM
My personal opinion is that he moved down to Lancaster Co and 'when it Rome...'  Whether it was Dickert setting the trend, or someone else, no clue. 

Eric -- So, given that we have this one object, undated, what leads you to think it was made after 1771 in Lititz and not as an imitation of a Lancaster-style rifle in Christiansbrunn in 1764?

I can only relpy by saying that it's my 'gut' impression, and that of many others who have studied these rifles for many years, that it is not a 1760s rifle.  I think it is just barely pre-War.  I long ago gave up using the size of the buttplate etc. to attribute date so the fact that it's got back isn't what I would focus upon to attribute date.  I can't offer more than a gut feel which I realize may not mean anything.  Part of the issue is that we truly have no idea how a Lancaster rifle in 1764 may have appeared.  Most of our assumptions of Lancaster work revolve around Dickert and unfortunately I do not know of any signed and dated pre-War rifles with his name on them.

And have I mentioned a rifle attributed to Isaac Haines that sure has a LOT in common with the Marshall rifle?  (I've been laughed at on this one - I can take it  ;D )
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 26, 2023, 02:04:42 AM
And why is everyone ignoring the lock?  It's clearly signed Albrecht in Bethlehem, so as far as I'm concerned it clearly proves he signed SOMETHING prior to his move up to CS.  Well unless he made later it while he was running the inn...
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 26, 2023, 02:19:01 AM
Right—so maybe he signed the lock, and the barrel, around the same time?—had a little “signing period.” Which would place the barrel quite early.

I can’t get my head around the other explanation. I know we have (almost) no signed/dated pre-War Lancaster rifles. But maybe they looked like this? As you say, makers knew each other’s work: Albrecht saw Dickert’s in the late 1760s and modeled a rifle after it while he was at Christiansbrunn—or tasked Oerter with doing so. It resembles Dickert’s later work because his style didn’t change much from just pre-war to war or post-war.

That’s entirely invented, of course. But it avoids the to-me-unlikely explanation that Albrecht adjusted his style to try to market his product more effectively.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 26, 2023, 02:43:32 AM
I'd agree that is a very valid proposal.  Can't really say much else because we're all just speculating.  Sure does render me quite wistful for more signed pieces to manifest, though!
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 26, 2023, 01:53:44 PM
And why is everyone ignoring the lock?  It's clearly signed Albrecht in Bethlehem, so as far as I'm concerned it clearly proves he signed SOMETHING prior to his move up to CS.  Well unless he made later it while he was running the inn...

I was away from my computer for five hours last evening so I was pleasantly surprised to see all of the back and forth on this subject.

In my view, if Albrecht was not averse to putting his name and location on the face of the lockplate, is it such a stretch to consider that he marked all of his work?

To me, that leaves open the possibility that the barrel on #46 is possibly older than we think, although it is not marked Bethlehem or Lititz. I'm not sure that he had the facilities in Lititz to make his own barrels. Perhaps he purchased the rifle barrel and marked it with just his name.

Do we have dimensions of the marked lock? Is it rifle size or pistol?
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 26, 2023, 02:50:02 PM
It's in one of the books although they're not in front of me so I don't recall if the length is listed or not.  I measured it many years ago but don't know where those notes are either!  It's pretty good sized though - I think roughly 6" long, off the top of my head.  The forward nose is shaped octagonally, which is very German and a somewhat early characteristic.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: smart dog on June 26, 2023, 03:08:09 PM
Hi Scott,
Great discussion.  I wonder if Albrecht's war years in Europe profoundly affected him.  It may have induced his zealous religious conversion and his army life accustomed him to group living.  I get a sense of that from his own declaration.  Anyway, I wonder how business was actually transpired.  Your writing about the Baer(?) rifle certainly suggests some business was conducted at a distance. How do you think that happened?  Did the customer seek out Oerter because he had a reputation ranging some distance away from Christian's Spring?  Was there a marketing network through the Moravian community that promoted their crafts far and wide?  Did the customer travel to CS and examine the work and then order a gun?  Did he ask for any special options and haggle over price?  Without day books, how would we know the customer was not informed or cared about the style and maker of the guns they bought and influenced what was made?

dave
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 26, 2023, 03:25:16 PM
Anyway, I wonder how business was actually transpired.  Your writing about the Baer(?) rifle certainly suggests some business was conducted at a distance. How do you think that happened?  Did the customer seek out Oerter because he had a reputation ranging some distance away from Christian's Spring?  Was there a marketing network through the Moravian community that promoted their crafts far and wide?  Did the customer travel to CS and examine the work and then order a gun? 

Certainly Moravian crafts of all sorts were known widely, at a great distance from Bethlehem or other settlements, and Moravians had extensive trade networks. There's been lots of works documenting that--and lots and lots of letters from folks elsewhere writing Moravian authorities to request one product or another (including guns).

Important to remember, though, that the profit from these exchanges did not flow to the craftsmen but to the community. Both Albrecht & Oerter chose to live in a manner in which wealth (or accumulation of wealth) was despised. They had no way, in any case, to make money from their work, since (again) they did not earn funds from their labor.

In the case of the Oerter rifle sent to Baer, we don't know for sure--but it seems that Baer (son or father) sought Oerter out because they knew they could acquire a distinctive, heirloom rifle from him. This suggests that Oerter's reputation was known far beyond Christiansbrunn by the early 1770s. But we don't really know how widely: if may have been a connection between the Baers and the Moravians or Oerters in particular (Oerter's father was a schoolteacher in Lancaster County), and if so his reputation may have been known to friends of the Moravians but not much more widely? Similarly, we need to know more about the rifles that Bob has written about that were purchased by people in western New Jersey before we conclude that these were the sort of anonymous purchases that would confirm that Oerter's products stood out or were known as a "brand" far from Bethlehem: were these people strangers to the Moravians or were they, so close to the settlement at Hope, aware of Oerter because of their Moravian connections? Impossible to know. I suggested some time ago that it would be valuable to work through the diaries of Hope, New Jersey, to see if the people who purchased the Oerter rifles visited Hope or traveled there. That might tell us a lot about how Oerter's rifle actually ended up in places distant from Bethlehem.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 26, 2023, 03:34:19 PM
Did the customer travel to CS and examine the work and then order a gun?  Did he ask for any special options and haggle over price?  Without day books, how would we know the customer was not informed or cared about the style and maker of the guns they bought and influenced what was made?

These are, I think, very different issues. Customers surely had particular requests, asked for special options, or haggled over price. The rifle Oerter made for Baer had special features, which Baer probably requested (and been willing to pay for). Certainly Oerter would have had to have known the Baers' resources before producing such an expensive rifle for them.

We know from Rosalind Beiler's work on the importer Caspar Wistar that in the 1730s he told his German exporters to send him rifles with longer barrels, since that is what his American customers wanted. See Immigrant and Entrepreneur: The Atlantic World of Caspar Wistar, 1650-1750 (Penn State Press, 2008).

It's likely (but, as I said above, not entirely clear) that customers did seek out Oerter's products because awareness of his talent had spread well beyond Bethlehem. So this would be an example of seeking out the product of a particular maker.

The issue of whether customers cared about the "style" of the gun--if you mean the regional styles that we now use to organize eighteenth-century rifles--is (in my mind) very different. Since I've made my point over and over (most recently above with the example of type-faces in books), let me ask you instead: do you have any evidence that any consumer in the eighteenth-century either (a) recognized or (b) cared about the stock profile of a rifle?
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 26, 2023, 04:59:06 PM

The issue of whether customers cared about the "style" of the gun--if you mean the regional styles that we now use to organize eighteenth-century rifles--is (in my mind) very different. Since I've made my point over and over (most recently above with the example of type-faces in books), let me ask you instead: do you have any evidence that any consumer in the eighteenth-century either (a) recognized or (b) cared about the stock profile of a rifle?

I think that the only hint at customer preferences in buttstock design, that I am aware of, are in the tracings Bob presents on pages 131 and 144 of his second book. Those compare buttstock profile and drop between Oerter's Griffin and Coykendall rifles (page 131) and Oerter's Hankinson and Griffen rifles (page 144). Bob does state that the degree of drop on the Coykendall may be exaggerated because of the repaired wrist.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 26, 2023, 05:18:22 PM
Bob's tracings show a difference in drop and trigger pull which effect the line of sight when the rifle is brought to the shoulder. I think it would all depend on the preference of the shooter as to how his arm length and shoulder "profile", for want of a better term, affects his sighting of the rifle. A customer would want a rifle that he would be paying for to be sighted in a comfortable way.

It does make a difference with trigger pull as is evidenced with the four (by 1918) different lengths of buttstocks the British had with the No.I Mk III SMLE rifle of the early 20th Century.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 26, 2023, 09:59:26 PM
Many thanks to all who participate in this thread. I've learned quite a bit from those who know infinitely more about this subject than I.

My thought on this rifle is that it is not a restock by Dickert or anyone else.

Had Dickert stocked the Albrecht signed barrel into a quality rifle like #46, why did he not dress off the top of the barrel and apply his name. He apparently was not shy in anyway about marking rifles with his name.



Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 27, 2023, 04:42:18 AM
It's likely (but, as I said above, not entirely clear) that customers did seek out Oerter's products because awareness of his talent had spread well beyond Bethlehem. So this would be an example of seeking out the product of a particular maker.

The issue of whether customers cared about the "style" of the gun--if you mean the regional styles that we now use to organize eighteenth-century rifles--is (in my mind) very different. Since I've made my point over and over (most recently above with the example of type-faces in books), let me ask you instead: do you have any evidence that any consumer in the eighteenth-century either (a) recognized or (b) cared about the stock profile of a rifle?

I doubt what would be considered real evidence of consumer awareness of a regional style will ever turn up.  However, something which I find interesting is that Albrecht and Oerter were working in a closed community (maybe that's over-simplification but you get my drift I believe).  They were not training outsiders.  You have presented some evidence that Oerter's work was known somewhat further abroad than one might think.  I also find it interesting that Edward Marshall owned a rifle typically attributed to Moravian make at either Bethlehem or CS - this not so odd, given his property up above Easton.  However, his son William living down in Bucks Co. clearly purchased an unbelievable rifle of Oerter (the 'griffin' rifle).  Why not purchase a rifle of someone more local?  This may reinforce the speculation that Oerter's work was regarded as a 'cut above.'

Npw this being said and building on this:  the local makers in western NH county - Neihart, Molls, Rupps - using the earliest examples of their work, clearly (to my eye) seem to have been imitating and building upon the design of Oerter's rifles, certainly not incorporating wirework to the extent that he did in 75/76 but using extremely similar design elements as well as building upon the direction he seems to have been taking his stock work.  If not trained by him, or by anyone at CS, why copy and ramp off his design work?  Could it be that his work, or Albrecht's work, was regionally well-known enough that it was considered the gold standard so to speak, and so to sell rifles in the area, other makers were forced to meet a consumer expectation?  Yes it's speculation but it makes sense to me after focusing upon rifles of this region for many years.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: rich pierce on June 27, 2023, 05:24:07 AM
Interesting stuff. I admire Oerter’s work a great deal, but am not sure everyone would rank him above Isaac Berlin, for example, in Easton. We are all speculating, and our speculations vary. Oerter is so interesting in part because we have signed rifles by him and a wealth of records. Perhaps if we had a similar number of surviving signed guns by Berlin and lots of documentation (simply using Berlin as an example) we would know of customers far and wide who wanted a rifle made by him. Just guessing there were personal connections we cannot know about. A friend or relative has a rifle made by Gunsmith A and likes it a great deal.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 27, 2023, 01:33:34 PM
I doubt what would be considered real evidence of consumer awareness of a regional style will ever turn up. 

I agree (though for different reasons, I suspect). Eighteenth-century consumers could be quite specific. In 1774, the Moravian single sister Mary Penry sent some stockings to Edward Shippen. She wrote: 

For we never keep worsted stockings ready knitt, because every one chuses rather to bespeak them as it suits them. And some chuse one coulour, some another. If Mr. Shippen fancy’s this coulour we have a pound of combed worsted ready. If you had rather have them mixed, be pleased to let me know, and we will do our endevour to serve you. The under sheriff refused to take the stockings he had expressly bespoke, and we had some trouble to dispose of them, as the gentleman had them knit in a Peculiar Way, according to his own fancy, which made them almost unsaleable.

So it's easily imaginable that, if customers noticed that a Lancaster style rifle was shaped differently than a Northampton County one and, more important, cared about the difference, they would have specified what they preferred when they wrote to ask for a rifle.

I don't think any such evidence will show up because rifle buyers didn't notice/care about the regional styles that matter so much to us. Much as, as I mentioned above, book buyers today don't care about type faces that so interest makers and students of book design. You might have a copy of The Lord of the Rings at home and I might have a copy of The Hobbit, but an analyst would be making a big mistake to assume that we make these choices based on the different type faces in the two volumes.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 27, 2023, 01:52:32 PM
One of the opportunities for knowledge of rifle designs from other "schools" to be available possibly came during the Rev War. There were militia rifle companies formed during the War with many in the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment which had rifle companies from Berks and other counties. These units were deployed to New Jersey and fought in the early campaigns of the War.

I am quite confident that while in the field the riflemen from different counties mingled and had the opportunity to examine rifles made in different Pa counties. Perhaps a small fraction of those troops picked up enough knowledge of other rifle designs and remembered that after they left the service.

As we all know some of Oerter's rifle were captured and taken back to England which is why some survived for us to admire.

Also, many rifles were sent to various gunsmiths for repair which was another opportunity for awareness of different rifle configuration. 
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 27, 2023, 02:01:10 PM
You have presented some evidence that Oerter's work was known somewhat further abroad than one might think. 

My honest opinion is that his rifles weren't widely known at all at the time. The Baer/Oerter rifle is the only one of his rifles that we know was purchased by somebody "far away" from Christiansbrunn--and the Baers may have been family friends.

Andreas Albrecht supplied eight rifles with "brass boxes" in summer 1776 for Colonel Miles's and Atlee's provincial regiments. Men in these regiments came from a wide range of places and the regiments marched through New Jersey and New York. Maybe some of the men who carried them scribbled their names on the brass boxes. Imagine if some of those eight rifles survived, today, and we could trace who possessed them during the war. Perhaps one man was from Northumberland County, another from Cumberland County--a third from Bergen County, New Jersey, and a fourth from Long Island. Knowing only this, we would probably be amazed at how widely Andreas Albrecht's name as a gunmaker was known! But in actuality Albrecht was known in none of these places.

It is likely that Coykendall and Hankinson acquired their rifles in the same way. They probably didn't order up an Oerter rifle from Christiansbrunn--at least there's no reason to think they did.

The Baer/Oerter rifle ought to be a cautionary tale for the sort of story we have told about these rifles that inflates Oerter's reputation at the time. The Baer/Oerter rifle circulated through many other hands than Baer's--none of whom knew Oerter whatsoever. It is unusual to be able to trace an eighteenth-century rifle to a particular owner, but knowing who possessed a rifle at some point in its life and knowing who purchased it from the maker and for what reason is an entirely different matter.

Rifles, including (we now know) very high-end rifles, circulated widely in these very years we're discussing (the 1770s). In Pennsylvania thousands of rifles were taken from their original owners and put in others' hands. It's like the bouncing ball on the roulette table: round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows. I wouldn't rely too much on where a rifle happens to have stopped.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 27, 2023, 02:15:21 PM
This may reinforce the speculation that Oerter's work was regarded as a 'cut above.'

I do believe that anybody who saw Oerter's work would have recognized it as a "cut above," and--while we don't know how they came to know of Oerter--the Baers clearly invested in a rifle that they, like us, recognized as distinctive and extraordinary. The price they were willing to pay establishes that.

I don't have any doubt that consumers could tell the different between plain/common and high-end rifles. (There's tons of evidence for this.) Nor do I doubt that some consumers (like Baer) would prefer a high-end rifle.

But all that is quite different from imagining that eighteenth-century consumers cared about other things (stock profiles) that we happen to care about.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 27, 2023, 02:41:01 PM
I just want to interject for a moment the fact that I have several copies of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, as well as multiple copies of the Hobbit.  8)
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 27, 2023, 02:46:31 PM
I just want to interject for a moment the fact that I have several copies of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, as well as multiple copies of the Hobbit.  8)

Me too! But did you ever notice, or care, what the type face was in the different volumes? :P
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 27, 2023, 03:30:30 PM
Not particularly the type face or font, but I do care very much about the particular editions as well as the dust jackets and maps inside!
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 27, 2023, 04:28:06 PM
Scott---I have a difficult time reading some of these documents, due to the fact that my monitor pretty much sucks. I added arrows to the document you were kind enough to share with all of us, detailing rifle purchases connected to Zantzinger. The document has an entry for a rifle issued to Alex McNickle. Is the name of the person who either made the rifle or owned the rifle "Albright"?

It would be great if it was Albrecht. Although that would be too good to be true, which means it probably isn't true. You may have discussed this already but I cannot find the posting to which you attached this document.


(https://i.ibb.co/sQCQPdy/IMG-5255-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZKSKJpW)
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 27, 2023, 04:30:20 PM
Yes, that’s “Albright” (Albrecht)!
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 27, 2023, 04:48:21 PM
Yes, that’s “Albright” (Albrecht)!

Hmmmm, well that's interesting. Was Albrecht a common name in Pa in that period?
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 27, 2023, 04:51:24 PM
That’s our Andreas Albrecht, if that’s what you’re asking?
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Eric Kettenburg on June 27, 2023, 05:03:00 PM
A few lines above, "Alescander Stevinson" also looks to have had an "Albright."
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 27, 2023, 05:13:09 PM
We know that Albrecht proved musket barrels and supplied rifles, including these in the Zantzinger receipt and, separately, 8 with a brass box (as I wrote just above) to the Atlee/Miles brigade, for provincial troops in 1776. I may be missing a point if there is something additional here.

My point about these would be, as I mentioned, that this is how (many rifles) circulated in these years. Many men were carrying Albrecht (and Oerter) rifles who were not consumers and who did not "choose" them on any basis whatsoever. So we should be very cautious about conclusions from the identities of men, esp. if they were soldiers, who happened to possess a rifle at some point in its life.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: Mike Brooks on June 27, 2023, 05:21:33 PM
I appears on the document above that some rifles were specified buy makers and others just noted as "Reading". I wonder why some were noted by maker? Were they the only ones signed perhaps?
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 27, 2023, 05:51:35 PM
I appears on the document above that some rifles were specified buy makers and others just noted as "Reading". I wonder why some were noted by maker? Were they the only ones signed perhaps?

There was a long discussion of this document and what this "Reading" may have here: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=72236.0
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 27, 2023, 07:55:36 PM
That’s our Andreas Albrecht, if that’s what you’re asking?

It would be nice if there was a "A." in front of Albright.  :)
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 27, 2023, 09:16:19 PM
In the thread from July 2022 which Scott brought to our attention, he asked in his Reply#5 on 7-2-22 that "Albright" was used as an identifier for two rifles on the list. I think Scott raised an interesting point when he asked if Albrecht signed the rifles he was stocking, presumably at Lititz, "ALBRIGHT" rather than "ALBRECHT".

I could not find a response to his point in any of the replies that followed.

Below is another document Scott posted at some time ago showing muskets delivered and paid for by various gunsmiths. There is an "Andrew Albright" listed as having received 11 barrels but delivering no muskets.

Did Albrecht Anglicize his name? Or was that the interpretation of whoever drew up this list?

(https://i.ibb.co/sVZKHqZ/1-0b5dd2d79c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2kTvNdT)
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 27, 2023, 09:46:35 PM
I don't think he signed them ALBRIGHT: I think he signed whatever he signed as ALBRECHT.

Lots of German names get (pretty routinely) Anglicized: in the Lancaster Committee minutes, Philip Grünwalt's name (that's how he spelled it, in German script) is often spelled Greenwald by others. Most educated folks in Lancaster could toggle easily between these variations. So Zantzinger or somebody else recorded "Albright" on these documents but, if they were looking at signed rifle barrels, it's very very likely they said ALBRECHT. Albrecht himself, by the way, apparently never learned to speak English very well.

In that document about muskets, that's William Atlee's handwriting: he's chairman of the Lancaster County Committee of Observation. He Anglicized Albrecht's name.

Another list of guns acquired from the familiar list of Lancaster makers (the one where he supplies eight rifles with brass boxes)--Dickert, John Henry, Messersmith, etc.--also refers to him as "Andrew Albright."
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 28, 2023, 12:26:15 AM

Another list of guns acquired from the familiar list of Lancaster makers (the one where he supplies eight rifles with brass boxes)--Dickert, John Henry, Messersmith, etc.--also refers to him as "Andrew Albright."

I do not recall seeing the list you site above, but would like to!

So, as of now I'm just going to assume that all of these arms transaction took place prior to Albrecht refusing to sign the Loyalty Oath and he returned to making pipe bowels.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 28, 2023, 12:53:05 AM
So, as of now I'm just going to assume that all of these arms transaction took place prior to Albrecht refusing to sign the Loyalty Oath and he returned to making pipe bowels.

Pennsylvania required its first loyalty oath (Test Act) in June 1777, so supplying these armaments occurred before that, yes.

But nothing about refusing to take the loyalty oath (he probably refused, like most others in Lititz, but we don't know that) would have required Albrecht to give up his profession. The two things were unrelated. Citizens who refused to subscribe to the loyalty oath suffered particular, specified penalties. The Test Act initially barred those who would not take the oath of allegiance only from civic privileges such as voting or office holding, and an April 1778 revision added to its punishments the confiscation of property and banishment from the state (few suffered these penalties).

Everybody in Lititz who refused to take the oath continued working in their trades--and Albrecht could have, too. If he was producing arms and the county or province wanted them, he could have continued to supply them. He does not seem to have objected to supplying arms in 1776 (though I suppose he could have been forced to do so), so I don't think he would have felt scrupulous about doing so in 1777 or 1778.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: smart dog on June 28, 2023, 01:52:22 AM
Hi Scott,
You asked if I had evidence that customers specified stock designs and I do not for the trade in America.  There is quite a bit of evidence in the British gun trade.  For example, customers wanting a rifle or fowler made in the "German" or "Spanish" or "French" fashion meaning the stock styling, barrel style, decoration, and even the lock. I find it hard to accept the idea that customers of guns in the 18th century cared no more about what they bought than when buying a book.  The gun cost much more and was a tool the owner may have used for recreation but also as a tool to earn a living, to defend themselves, and to feed themselves.  Moreover, one gun style or dimensions do not fit everyone and unlike a book, the fit of the gun matters to the shooter.  Evidence for specific customer input may not survive except in day books.  As you wrote, we need to find some to address a lot of questions about the trade. 

dave
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: spgordon on June 28, 2023, 02:04:39 AM
Dave,

Of course I never said or would ever have thought that "customers of guns in the 18th century cared no more about what they bought than when buying a book." I did not say, at any point or in any fashion, that customers did not care about the gun that they bought. I wrote an article, for God's sake, about a customer who specified quite particularly the features he wanted on his rifle! I've said, repeatedly, that they would have cared about the difference between a common and a high-end rifle; many might have requested particular features (as Baer seems to have); they might certainly have negotiated about many things with a gunsmith; and of course they would have wanted a gun that "fit" them physically. Not sure why that isn't clear.

All I have said, repeatedly, is that I do not believe that customers cared at all about the stock profiles (Lancaster v. Northampton, for instance) that some of us think are so obvious. That is all I have said.

My point is that those things were not visible or significant to eighteenth-century American customers. There is no evidence that anybody noticed them.

If, in the British gun trade, customers requested German or Spanish or French fashions, then I guess the differences between those things were more noticeable than the difference between a Lancaster County and a Lehigh County gun.


****

The reason whether people noticed stock profiles matters is because this is how people have explained the signed Albrecht rifle. It has a Lancaster profile because he had to adjust his practice to tailor it to the Lancaster clientele. I don't believe that, because I don't think any customer would have cared a whit about a stock profile.
Title: Re: Lancaster style rifle with "A ALBRECHT" signed barrel aka RCA 46
Post by: WESTbury on June 28, 2023, 02:23:35 AM
Everybody in Lititz who refused to take the oath continued working in their trades--and Albrecht could have, too. If he was producing arms and the county or province wanted them, he could have continued to supply them. He does not seem to have objected to supplying arms in 1776 (though I suppose he could have been forced to do so), so I don't think he would have felt scrupulous about doing so in 1777 or 1778.

Well sure, that's what any good businessman would do. ;D

Appreciate all of your insight into these subjects Scott. It funny, I did not pick up on the pipe bowels the first couple of times I read your paper on Albrecht. Of course he had many other talents such as a musician and teacher. Certainly a very well rounded individual that may have an interesting person to have a conversation with. I wonder if my distant cousins, the Graeff brothers were ever acquainted with Albrecht.