AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Crabapples on July 26, 2023, 10:54:19 PM
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Today I took my 50 cal flintlock longrifle (Kibler Colonial) to the range for sighting-in. I had previously shot it at 25 yards, shooting 60 grains of 2F. I was able to fire it five or six times without having to clean the bore.
Today I increased range to 75 yds, and the load to 90 grains. I also forgot my cleaning patches at home. I thought, “OK, I can shoot maybe five shots before I have to quit.”
But I didn’t take into account that I had increased the load, and so after 3 shots, my hickory rammer snapped trying to get the ball down the barrel.
I took the gun home, and pulled the ball out using a cleaning rod. It was a pain in the tookus, but the rifle is clear now.
It occurs to me, after watching a few “stuck ball” youtubes, that I may have been able to simply fire the gun and eject the ball that way. I’m not convinced that’s the safest way to do it, but I wonder too if I’m being over-cautious in thinking so.
Has this ever happened to you, and how did you get the ball out?
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Yes but not exactly. 40 years ago.
After that I decided to use a metal (brass) bench rod. The only time I use a wood rammer is in the field hunting.
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You shouldn't have to clean the bore at all during a shooting session. What type of patch lube are you using?
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You shouldn't have to clean the bore at all during a shooting session. What type of patch lube are you using?
The ball is .490, patches are precut .015 Ox-yoke ticking. I also use ox-yoke wonder lube.
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Yes but not exactly. 40 years ago.
After that I decided to use a metal (brass) bench rod. The only time I use a wood rammer is in the field hunting.
Yes. I ordered a range rod and some replacement hickory. Won’t make this mistake again. Will make some other mistake instead next time.
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I would highly consider a different patch thickness and different lube. Not a fan of "Wonder Lube". With a .490 ball I would use a .018 patch and there are several lubes that should work for you. T.O.T.W. Mink oil/grease, the mink oil mixed with 100% pure neatsfoot oil in a 50/50 mixture finally Hoppes black powder patch lube have all worked well for me. You should be able to shoot many shots before needing to wipe. Only on some of my little bore squirrel guns do I ever need to wipe. A good range rod is a great idea, like said earlier I only use my ramrod for hunting and primitive woods walks.
Just the ramblings of an old man. Hope it helps. Let us all know if any of these were of help.
"Muskrat" Mike
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Throw the wonder lube in the trash and get a range rod. Use spit patch or Track of the Wolf Mink Oil.
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I shoot 490 balls and 018 patch with spit as a lube,15 shots and the last was as
easy as the first. This is in a Kibler Colonial also!
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Crabapples,
Do yourself a HUGE favor and look up the countless times Daryl and Taylor have explained in great detail how to shoot as many times as you want without EVER wiping the bore. Wet, tight patches....shoot all you want. I assume that most of us like to shoot, but I see many who spend twice as much time wiping as they do shooting. I guess that saves them a lot of powder and lead...... :o
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Throw the wonder lube in the trash and get a range rod. Use spit patch or Track of the Wolf Mink Oil.
Thanks, I’ll try the mink oil, and using a .018 patch next time, and see if that helps. I hope it will; running a couple cleaning patches after every shot is a pain.
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I run 40 dawn/60 water solution for lube. I can run all day to Sunday no swabbing cleaning etc.....
You should be able to load your gun with the rod that goes with it. I spend most of my time shooting in the woods where I don't use a range rod.
I have a Kibler colonial in .50 as well, and its a tack driver. Will shoot into the same hole at 50yds. I shoot 490 ball in mine
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Do yourself a HUGE favor and look up the countless times Daryl and Taylor have explained in great detail how to shoot as many times as you want without EVER wiping the bore.
I certainly will, but I hope you will forgive my ignorance in my knowing neither Daryl or Taylor.
Where can I find their explanations?
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I run 40 dawn/60 water solution for lube.
I will try that asap. I wonder if wonderlube is fouling my barrel; I assumed it was powder residue but maybe not.
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I can fire 12 or 15 shots without cleaning, using moose milk, or even spit patches.
Also, my 50 cal shoots out to 80 yds or so, either hunting or trail walk with 65grFFFg. I can't see any better than that , that powder would make a difference?
Been shooting along time like that and killed lots and lots of deer. In my 54 cal I use 75Gr FFg, same range, same patches, same lub,
same results.
I do not use moose milk when hunting however, but some form of grease lub.
Hope this would help you.
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Do not try to shoot the ball out if it's not seated on the powder charge. You could ring the barrel OR WORSE. As everyone has said, dump the wonder lube.
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I use a very damp patch with moose milk on it. NEVER use a cleaning patch and I can shoot all day. The damp patch cleans the bore every time you load it.
I also never use a wooden ramrod. Even while hunting I might carry a steel range rod.
Fleener
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An example, shot a four day shooting match and never swabbed or cleaned. My patches are nearly dripping wet
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I personally use TOW mink oil but the 40/60 or 50/50 Dawn/water mix is very interesting to me and I plan to try it.
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Do not try to shoot the ball out if it's not seated on the powder charge. You could ring the barrel OR WORSE.
That was the safest assumption. But I wanted to ask, in case there I was mistaken. Thanks.
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Crabapple,
Search for posts about shooting by both "D. Taylor Sapergia" and his brother "Daryl"
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Crabapples,
Do yourself a HUGE favor and look up the countless times Daryl and Taylor have explained in great detail how to shoot as many times as you want without EVER wiping the bore. Wet, tight patches....shoot all you want. I assume that most of us like to shoot, but I see many who spend twice as much time wiping as they do shooting. I guess that saves them a lot of powder and lead...... :o
And WHAT do those two know anyway ;D ;D?I hope to have the pleasure of talking to Taylor in Lexington on the 11th of August and rang him up on the phone two days ago.Only Jud Brennan has to travel farther unless someone from Europe comes over.
Bob Roller
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A co2 ball disch. arger is great for removing a stuck ball
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Next time cut up your underwear with your knife for cleaning patches.
Bob
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Next time cut up your underwear with your knife for cleaning patches.
Ha! That would make quite an impression with the fellas at the range.
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Crabapples: Commercial products for shooting black powder rifles work only sometimes. In your case, you have handicapped yourself right out of the gate. First off, Ox Yoke patches advertised at .015" thick are not. They are more likely around .009" or .010" thick and that is far too thin to seal your bore and prevent blowby. Blowby is when the gases that are supposed to stay behind the ball, burn the patch and get past it, fouling the bore badly and ruining accuracy. You require a Vernier's calipers to measure your patch material, so YOU know exactly how thick it is, and thus, how effective it will be. Your patch must be thick enough to form a tight seal between the bore and the ball and fill the grooves with some compression in the bottom of the grooves. A patch this thick will also carry enough lubricant to effectively dissolve all of the fouling from your previous shot as you slide it down the bore with the ball, and finally seat the ball firmly on the charge. At this stage of loading, there should be no fouling at all left in your bore, and there will in fact be a thin film of lubricant coating the bore from ball to muzzle. I have read that there are some good commercial patches available, but they are so easy to make, it seems silly to me to buy them. I go to the fabric store, in my case, Fabricland (Canadian) with my Vernier's calipers and measure denim, drill, or twill fabric by crushing the material between the jaws of the calipers with my thumb and forefinger as hard as I can, and take a reading. This is how the patch is compressed in the bore of your rifle, so this is the measurement you need. I submit that your patches for a .50 cal rifle and a .490" ball should be no less than .018" thick (compressed) and better yet. 021". Here, denim fabric that is listed as 8 oz. measures .018" and 10 oz. denim measures .021". I precut my patches too, using a 1 1/2" ball bearing and a bearing race of the appropriate inside diameter. For a .50 cal, I cut 1 1/8" patches, having first washed and dried the material twice to remove the sizing in the cloth from the factory.
Wonderlube doesn't work, as you have discovered. Perhaps you can salvage it if you cut it with neatsfoot oil or olive oil by at least 100%. But the oil alone will be so much better than adding the Wonderlube. There are dozens of good lubes that all work more or less equally and a brief search here will find discussions on them all. For target shooting, as in sighting in a rifle, trail matches or just fun shooting, a liquid lube with a water base is all you need. But your patches must be close to dripping wet, not just damp. I place all the patches I am going to shoot into a copper patch box and pour my liquid lube into the box until it is about to overflow. I press the patches down into the liquid saturating them all, then pour off the excess back into my storage vessel, pressing the patches gently with my finger to squeeze out the excess liquid. I carry extra patches and a small jar of liquid lube with me to the range, in case I run out of patches and need to replenish my supply.
Now, I confess to using a short starter and a priming horn, so I am going straight to $#*! for blaspheming. But I can also shoot all day without having to wipe my bore. One of my favourite rifles is a Western PA rifle after T. Allison in .25 cal. and I use .018" patches about the size of a dime, a .250" ball, and my 1/4" wooden ramrod to load this rifle all day long. You cannot, I hasten to add, load the rifle in one long stroke as that would surely break the rammer, but instead, I use 5" lengths of the rod to push the ball down the bore, finally placing the hole in the knob of the starter over the end of the rod for the final bump. But for the purposes of target shooting on a firing line, and for cleaning, also use a steel range rod, even with my .60 cal Virginia rifle.
I apologize for the wordy missive, but sincerely hope that some of this will help you, and add to your enjoyment of shooting black powder longrifles.
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Wonderlube doesn't work, as you have discovered. Perhaps you can salvage it if you cut it with neatsfoot oil or olive oil by at least 100%. But the oil alone will be so much better than adding the Wonderlube.
I bought the wonderlube, the only lube I’ve used, because Kibler sells their patches. I’m a little disappointed that this stuff has been gunking up my barrel, but it seems like at least the culprit is identified and I can get going with better options based on everyone’s responses. I appreciate your lengthy reply; I confess that running around fabric shops with a pair of calipers wasn’t exactly something I expected that I would find myself considering, but then again I don’t reload my my spent brass either, so I am just accustomed to looking for commercial options for lack of much spare time.
I’m curious where my shots will land now, once I switch to a thicker patch and a less foul lube. I may find myself in need of a new front sight, as I took quite a bit off mine to get it on target.
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Work up a new load before you change any sights. Some people use carb cleaner to clean the wonder lube gunk out of their barrels. ;)
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Taylor, I have used your system successfully for a few years using Hoppe's Black Powder solvent as my wet lube shooting many shots fairly close together. The other day at a silhouette shoot, where there was approx 15 minutes between shooting sessions, needing to stand behind the line unloaded as targets were set back up, when I then went to reload, the fouling was incredibly hard and would not soften as before. I had to swab and wipe between the shooting sessions. Any suggestions? Wetter patch? If wetter patch, I've thought I would need some kind of wad over the power.
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I’ve had good results with Mr. Flintlock Lube and I don’t clean between shots. I have fired 15-20 shots this way with no cleaning between and no misfires. I used to swab the bore between shots and would get the occasional misfire, which I was told was due to the cleaning patch pushing some of that fouling down around the touch hole. Whether that was the case or not, it did stop happening when I stopped swabbing between shots. YMMV.
Jay
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Sidenote: how did you break the rod? Were you choking way up, or just a few inches up. Choking way up greatly increases the chance for breaking, and broken rods can do numbers on hands.
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Happened to me today with an 1815 Jacob Roop on the 6th shot. I got the 44 ball in about 8”. Primed the pan and blew it out. The target looked like the ball had fragmented. No lube or wad. All is well.
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I use mutton tallow like the brits did for 200 yrs keeps fouling soft 10oz denim over a .490 ball reasonable to load . I keep 2 range rods, one take down in the range box (an army 50 machine gun cleaning rod 4 pc all brass but the T handle) and an all steel one from rice barrels (the bullet puller rod) I might try the dawn+h20 ::)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z60hzfY/DSC03160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MDmRkgG)
(https://i.ibb.co/Wvg6KLW/DSC03040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SwRPvzX) these are load work up targets then I adjust the sights to point of aim after finding MY load
I use a 45 cal jag in 50 barrels to load and wipe the smaller jag rides over the fouling on the way in to wipe turn to the right the cleaning/wipe patch expands filling the bore and pulls the fouling out(insed of pushing it into the breach)
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Wouldn't have happened if you just used spit patch.
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Sidenote: how did you break the rod? Were you choking way up, or just a few inches up. Choking way up greatly increases the chance for breaking, and broken rods can do numbers on hands.
I was probably a little higher than I should have been, but not too high. The splintered rod stabbed me in the finger and produced a fair amount of blood. That was the end of my range day.
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Wouldn't have happened if you just used spit patch.
I will try spit the next time I take her out.
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try what mulebrain said, 40-60 water and dawn. i never swab a time! the 40th ball goes down like the first! but hey if that's to easy for you, i understand,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Taylor, I have used your system successfully for a few years using Hoppe's Black Powder solvent as my wet lube shooting many shots fairly close together. The other day at a silhouette shoot, where there was approx 15 minutes between shooting sessions, needing to stand behind the line unloaded as targets were set back up, when I then went to reload, the fouling was incredibly hard and would not soften as before. I had to swab and wipe between the shooting sessions. Any suggestions? Wetter patch? If wetter patch, I've thought I would need some kind of wad over the power.
I a situation such as you describe, there are a couple of things you can do to get through the crust. You can use a plastic or metal tube to insert into the muzzle for a blow tube. Blow long and slowly emptying your lungs, several times. This will introduce moisture into the bore and wet the fouling so that when you load, you won't have to deal with the hard cake. Also, a sopping wet patch on a jag followed by a dry one will also take care of the problem. I concur that having to leave a fouled rifle for 15 min when the humidity is low is a problem. I carry a jag and a worm, together with some patches or tow, in my patch box or shooting bag for occasions such as you describe.
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A co2 ball disch. arger is great for removing a stuck ball
That's true, but the ball has to be securely on top of the charge, else there is too much room for the CO2 to expand.
John (Bigsmoke)
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Never fire your rifle with a ball stuck in the barrel. It's a good way to blow up your rifle. Not to mention the damage it can do to you.
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If you use loading blocks on a 20 shot 2 hour woods walk will the 40/60 dawn water solution dry out?
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If you use loading blocks on a 20 shot 2 hour woods walk will the 40/60 dawn water solution dry out?
I only use grease or oil lubes in loading blocks.
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I prefer venison tallow, or bear grease, to anything I’ve tried in the way of store bought patch lubes. Most lubes have at least one ingredient that doesn’t tolerate high heat, and will eventually cause a stuck ball.
I like to put a shoe polish tin over the open top of my candle lantern, with a short candle in it. And, dip my pre-cut patches in the melted tallow.
If you just can’t consider doing anything for yourself, buy mutton tallow from Dixie Gun works. It works quite well, but not as good as venison, or bear, grease.
Hungry Horse
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Throw the wonder lube in the trash and get a range rod. Use spit patch or Track of the Wolf Mink Oil.
Or jojoba oil, or neatsfoot oil, or Mr. Flintlock Lube. I'm a big proponent of liquid lubes. If you shoot immediately after loading, spit works just as well as anything else. I think Wonder Lube is totally useless.
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If you use loading blocks on a 20 shot 2 hour woods walk will the 40/60 dawn water solution dry out?
Due to low humidity at Rendezvous B.C., we who use a water/alcohol lube, add a tich of neetsfoot oil to the mix. This seems to slow the evaporation rate in low humidity situations. I've never had a problem of lube evaporation in sub 10% humidity on Trail walks, however my lubed patches are carried in a tin in my possibles bag. They are still wet at the end of the trail, whether its 40 shots here in PG, or only 22 shots at rendezvous. A rich of oil is about 2 ounces per quart of winter windshield washer fluid. I like Blue Thunder brand as that stuff has no "extra" chemicals.
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Throw the wonder lube in the trash and get a range rod. Use spit patch or Track of the Wolf Mink Oil.
Or jojoba oil, or neatsfoot oil, or Mr. Flintlock Lube. I'm a big proponent of liquid lubes. If you shoot immediately after loading, spit works just as well as anything else. I think Wonder Lube is totally useless.
I've always thought the name "Wonder Lube" was concocted by the user saying "I wonder why they call this lube?"
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I think the main ingredient in WonderLube, is chapstick with eucalyptus oil or some other stink-um to make it smell nice.
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Wonder Lube will leave a coating in your barrel that won't clean out with soap and water. The water might come out clean but that greenish-brown coating remains. I used to shoot a lot of wonder lube and brake cleaner is what I used to finally get my barrels clean.
For most of my shooting I use a dwindling supply of LHV or Mr. Flintlocks. However I do use Wonder Lube for my deer hunting rounds because you can leave your rifle loaded for days or weeks and it won't rust your barrel. It helps that I only fire a few shots during deer season. This is in my .54, WL is never used in my .40.
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I have left a rifle loaded with patched ball, for up to 3 months, without any deleterious effect.
The lube used, was melted Track's Mink Oil, saturated patch. I fired that loaded round off, at the
range on a 10" steel plate at 100 meters, hitting it almost in the middle - offhand. I immediately loaded
another and hit the same place the second shot.
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I never hesitated to use a bit of cleaning between shots I only target shoot so many of my shooting sessions will be several shots . I tend to not over think ,nylon bore brush . 90% of my inaccuracies is me not the rifle load . I pre soak patch material in water Ballistol I dip the pre soak patches when loading in the same Ballistol & water solution shake patch or squeeze load ball . This is subjective as most info online find what works for you .
It occurs to me, after watching a few “stuck ball” youtubes, that I may have been able to simply fire the gun and eject the ball that way.
Never ever try to clear any firearm bore with a stuck projectile by firing the firearm .
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I try not to overthink things as well. ;) I just don't have to wipe the bore at ANY time during a shooting session, no matter how long it is & with no loss if accuracy
on an offhand course of fire, like at rendezvous.
15 minutes between shots, if the loading is difficult, you have left more fouling in the bore than a tighter combination will leave. A wet patch, with a water based lube,
will soften the fouling, at least if sure does in my barrels- all of them.
I found with Track's mink oil and either a .311" ball or .320" ball in my .320"cal rifle and 10 ounce denim patch (.021") that the 50th shot loaded easier than the first.
With that barrel, which even had very narrow grooves and wide lands, as opposed to my Rice .36 barrel with wide grooves and narrower lands, loading was virtually
identical with the same 10 ounce denim patch. Easy as it could be. With those small balls, a short starter wasn't even necessary as I demonstrated to the fellows on
the line. A choked up rod, was able to push the ball and patch into the bore. The largest cal. I have tried with with, was my .40, using a ball that was .002" larger than
the bore and with a .0225" denim patch. This material was also listed as 10 ounce, but I think it was the last of the USA made material we got. The new 10 ounce, likely
Chinese made is only .021" thick. It seems to work well in all my guns too.
Thus, I find smaller bored guns are easier to load than larger ones and this is likely because there is less lead that has to be moved. The smaller balls conform with the
patch, into the bore more easily.
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I have two .58 cal roundball rifles, A Kibler Colonial and a full stock flint Hawken with a Hoyt barrel. They both shoot very well with a .575 ball and .020 ticking patch which I use in target loads with 75 gr. of Swiss 3F. No more deer hunting. My lube for at least the last 25 years has been TOW mink oil. I can easily shoot a string of 25 shots with either rifle without cleaning. I always use a range rod. Patches are cut at the muzzle. I gave up on precuts a long time ago. When I hunted, I used a loading block with patches cut at the block as if they were in the muzzle.