AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: rich pierce on July 31, 2023, 07:13:01 PM
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Fiddler posted a link to Louis Parker’s guns at the Morphy auction below. I poked around and there’s something for everyone there except early rifles. http://auctions.morphyauctions.com/Catalog.aspx
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Does this define the saying that "Somebody lost their marbles"???
Bob Roller
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What? Where are the guns?
rr
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you can buy a gun cheaper.
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What? Where are the guns?
rr
Scroll through auctions till you see this
(https://i.ibb.co/ydjnQQf/IMG-0693.png) (https://ibb.co/n6JsLLg)
free image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
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I’m not paying 26++ percent to buy anything. If someone wants a quick sale of something bad enough to put it in Auction, Then they should pay the Auction fees and take the net. Are buyer and seller both being hit with auction fees this high?
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I’m not paying 26++ percent to buy anything. If someone wants a quick sale of something bad enough to put it in Auction Then they should pay the Auction fees and take the net. Are buyer and seller are being hit with auction fees this high?
I AGREE 100%!!!! If an auction company needs to charge this ridiculous fee for a sale, it should be on the seller who chose to consign and auction goods rather than hit up the buyer who is the effing customer. #$!?
But, I guess the response is, "well they do it because they can." And as long as buyers are willing to keep paying all these stupid silly fees, well they'll keep paying these stupid silly fees that should be on the seller, not the buyer.
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Until the system changes, I look at what I would pay to get the gun into my door. I then deduct 26% to arrive at my max bid..... it's really the consigner who gets screwed with both the auction house's commission and then the reduced bid amount by buyers like me who reduce their gavel price bid to cover the infamous "buyers premium".
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Yes. The buyer is indeed getting hit with the old phillips driver.
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I suppose they charge for the catalog too?
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Ya gotta really want it, that’s for sure. I did not see many that go with a final cost that could be recouped in a short time in a private sale.
Reminds me of my early days selling guns on consignment at shops.
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I think Rock Island is a 27% fee. And charges taxes, and handling, and. ...
But has anyone else noticed like 80% of ALL guns selling on auctions are now going through Rock Island? They are selling millions of dollars in guns every year, in groups of 200-300 every month.
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My recent RI purchase was charged 17.5% buyers premium. Buyers premium is higher if you pay by credit card.
Shipping on a long rifle was $46. The crate alone was worth that!
Insurance was at my option and was $21.15
Sales tax was $115.66
It was delivered to UPS on 7/17 and was at my door 7/19 before noon.
All this on an $1800 hammer price.
I wish fees were less but the truth is that every seller wants the most $$ and every buyer wants the least cost. Auctions bring a world of buyers to an event that would otherwise escape most of us.
Auctions spend time in researching the offerings and to a certain degree their reputation is at risk if the screw up. My guess is that the cost factor to an auction could easily be 10%....staff, facility, advertising, platforms to bid on, etc. The crazy element comes in if one goes to another platform to bid. They all tack on several additional points, maybe as much as 6%.
So best just decide that it's a part of the market and get in or stay out. This is our first on line gun purchase. It was a total happy experience. Got a good gun that I simply would not have encountered in my world at a reasonable price and excellent service from Rock Island. I fear it may not be the last.
Not sure about "Morphy". The seem to have some less than friendly staff. Best not go out in the rain else they will drown. Guess we do not project the proper image to be among their clients and accordingly I'll make every effort to retain that status.
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I think Rock Island is a 27% fee. And charges taxes, and handling, and. ...
But has anyone else noticed like 80% of ALL guns selling on auctions are now going through Rock Island? They are selling millions of dollars in guns every year, in groups of 200-300 every month.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/faq/what-is-the-buyer-s-premium
At Rock Island Auction Company, the buyer’s premium is 17.5%. All purchases made by credit card are subject to an additional 3.5% service fee. If the purchaser utilizes RIAC’s live bidding platform ‘RIAC Live’, there will be a fee charged, calculated as an additional 1% of the hammer price.
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Auctions spend time in researching the offerings and to a certain degree their reputation is at risk if the screw up.
That may be true for Civil War-era, lever guns, colt pistols etc., but that is not the case imho when it comes to all these butchered, buggered, half-fake flint and early Federal era pieces. It seems to me (admittedly a stooge according to some here who know it all, so call me Curly...) that when it comes to earlier pieces, they are happy to simply parrot whatever the Kindig-era obsessed seller is willing to provide as manufactured fact and simply "overlook" with vague and bland commentary pretty much anything that may otherwise be a giant flaming red flag.
See the most recent "John Hovey 1775" musket/fowler at Morphy's as a case in point...
And I do not see how their reputation is at risk, as they make it a very pointed point (apologies for the redundancy) to NOT back up pretty much anything, which speaks volumes of wherein lie their true interests (i.e., it's not their reputation). Every description is sure to include a half-dozen speculative verbal exit doors to ensure that they can not be accused of outright fraud.
Back when we used to have a lot more fun here with friendly argumentative debate and infinitely less moderation, Earl was very fond of repeating a great mantra (paraphrase): "There's nothing wrong with saying 'I don't know.' "
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I'll say this....there are a lot of people out there with a lot of money. I have bought a lot of stuff from RIAco over the years. You have to figure in the fees on the end, but in my opinion most people don't. Most folks bidding at on line auctions pay 25% above retail. That's the way it is, I don't like it but There are no other sources for the things I'm looking for that are cheaper in the end. It sucks, but old guns are expensive. You're either a buyer or you ain't.
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Why do people spend money they don't have on something they don't need just to impress other people they don't even like?
I for one am done with RIA
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That's welcome news, Dan. Now I do not need to worry about you competing for an item I want!
And I tend to agree with Mr. Brooks. I am acquainted with a number of experienced "auction" buyers and all seem to be financially very sound. Not that they give me a financial statement or a copy of their tax returns. And I do not think they are trying to impress anyone. Granted the "need" is intangible but all who appreciate the "old gun" are drawn to in on those intangibles. The history...people... places...events....makers....the artistry, these are just some of the draw. Beats the heck out of collecting marbles.
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Thanks Molly I'm only charging you 5 percent on the money you save! ;) ;) ;D
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Why do people spend money they don't have on something they don't need just to impress other people they don't even like?
I for one am done with RIA
It is what it is. I just read in the most recent cataloge this will be the last premiere auction in Illinois, from here on out they will be run in their new Texas facility. Unfortunate for me as the current location is only 25 miles from my place and I always drive over on viewing day to take a look down the bores of what I'm interested in. If I don't get to look at the bore condition I don't buy. So. That's probably the end of buying old guns for me.
My wife will be greatly relieved
...
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I figure out what the item is worth to me and subtract the various costs. That is my high sealed bid. Then I let it ride. Win or lose the sun will still come the next day.
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Auctions spend time in researching the offerings and to a certain degree their reputation is at risk if the screw up.
That may be true for Civil War-era, lever guns, colt pistols etc., but that is not the case imho when it comes to all these butchered, buggered, half-fake flint and early Federal era pieces. It seems to me (admittedly a stooge according to some here who know it all, so call me Curly...) that when it comes to earlier pieces, they are happy to simply parrot whatever the Kindig-era obsessed seller is willing to provide as manufactured fact and simply "overlook" with vague and bland commentary pretty much anything that may otherwise be a giant flaming red flag.
[snip]
And I do not see how their reputation is at risk, as they make it a very pointed point (apologies for the redundancy) to NOT back up pretty much anything, which speaks volumes of wherein lie their true interests (i.e., it's not their reputation). Every description is sure to include a half-dozen speculative verbal exit doors to ensure that they can not be accused of outright fraud.
I wish we had a "like" button for posts on this site.
(https://i.ibb.co/k8TPsLy/4292.png) (https://ibb.co/pzTkBHP)
We've seen over and over that, when some list members point out major problems with listings (which always inflate the value of the gun, "coincidentally"), other list members do everything possible to protect the auction house--usually by suggesting something along the lines of "well, if a buyer's willing to shell out the money ..." or "well, then don't buy it." I've never seen the reputation of an auction house suffer for the misleading and (in my opinion) fraudulent listings they provide.
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So then you have a diminished view of the auction houses reputation? No claim was made that anyone was going to jail or charged with fraud although I will guess that it has probably happened. Truth be known it is probably more likely to be a problem for an auction to contradict decades of published history and "facts" thereby resulting in a lesser value. It does not seem that the auctions CREATE the pedigree that a gun comes with. That was done well before it arrived at their door. Time validates the pedigree, not the auction company.
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Truth be known it is probably more likely to be a problem for an auction to contradict decades of published history and "facts" thereby resulting in a lesser value.
I honestly don't know what this means--or implies. If "decades of published history" turns out to be wrong, auction houses should continue to repeat it because ... because why?
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Time validates the pedigree, not the auction company.
Auction companies routinely repeat information from 60 years ago, which has been disproven over and over again in print or elsewhere: they are thus "validating" a pedigree that is inaccurate. Happily we know a lot more in 2023 than we did in 1960. I suppose that practice of repeating old and mistaken information may simply be sloppy, but that is giving these professionals the benefit of the doubt that I doubt most of us would accept in almost any other instance. Imagine if a drug company, or a car company, or a financial advisor, relied on research from 1960. Would we give them a pass?
Certainly in nearly all these instances the mistakes inflate the value of the item, which of course serves the interest of the seller and the auction house--and, as long as the game continues, the buyer-who-will-be-a-seller-in-the-future.
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Unfortunately, many seem to think that time ended with the works of Kinding, Shumway, etc. In some cases, it's been nearly a half-century since they conducted their seminal works. I'm sure they'd be the first to endorse contradictions to their conclusions if supported by solid research. This is hardly unique to the long rifle world as I'm sure a researcher like Scott G. can testify. Lordy knows I've seen it in my field (archaeology) often enough! I'm not suggesting the major auction houses get into academic debates within their listings, but a little additional effort would be nice to see now and then at least with some of their most notable offerings. Just my two cents.
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Unfortunately, many seem to think that time ended with the works of Kinding, Shumway, etc. In some cases, it's been nearly a half-century since they conducted their seminal works. I'm sure they'd be the first to endorse contradictions to their conclusions if supported by solid research. This is hardly unique to the long rifle world as I'm sure a researcher like Scott G. can testify. Lordy knows I've seen it in my field (archaeology) often enough! I'm not suggesting the major auction houses get into academic debates within their listings, but a little additional effort would be nice to see now and then at least with some of their most notable offerings. Just my two cents.
These comments are worth more than two cents!--esp. asking auction houses to put in "a little additional effort" to produce accurate listings.
In most fields--history or archaeology--the expectation is that we learn new things and anybody who did not consult/credit (let alone produce) new research would not succeed in the field.
Only in fields with a sacred text (i.e., religion [not religious studies]) is the model to return over and over to that text as the unimpeachable authority & to dismiss anybody who questions the sacred text as a heretic (or a stooge). No new information is desired in the case of sacred texts: such things are blasphemy!
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I'm not here to represent my employer as stated in my signature below but also don't hide my affiliation. I won't get involved in any mudslinging, but I can speak for myself and say that I'm constantly learning, reading, and studying to learn more and more. I'm happy to consider myself a lifelong student in all of my interests in life. Our knowledge is never complete, and new insights are being made all the time. As many of you know, you can spend decades studying a single school of longrifles and continue to make new discoveries. References to classic works in firearms history are common because so many people use them for references and essentially revere those books and authors and care if a rifle or maker is in those books, but I can also confirm that many descriptions here will both reference someone like Kindig and then sometimes also contradict him based on updated data and opinions.
If you have an issue with an auction house description, email them. If its here, feel free to ask for me directly. I don't know how that works at other places, but I know for a fact that here corrections, updates, items pulled from auction, called out as fraudulent, relisted with an updated descriptions, etc. happen every auction based on information received from collectors. We also field a ton of online and phone questions after every catalog goes out, so if you have a question or concern about something, ask.
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Well put!! Thank you.
Al J.
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The big books that cover major ground - Kindig’s Golden Age and Shumway’s RCA series - only come along once in a generation at most. I assume and hope the auction companies hire consultants who keep up on things and are not intertwined with sellers. But who among us could know all that is required about American longrifles 1750-1870 from the Carolinas to New England and west to Kentucky up to Michigan? I don’t think it would be easy. We could pick a gun and let’s see which among us could agree on what should be a suitable description. Then pick a very different gun, 50 years and 1000 miles apart, and let’s see if the same persons feel qualified. The person who knows Becks and Bonewitzes may not know Lehigh or Bedford or Maryland guns, let alone Virginia or North Carolina guns of the same period, or the guns of the fur trade, or late percussion guns. I wish the auction houses did better but do not think it would be easy.
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Interesting....
10. GUARANTEE. All property offered for sale is as is, where is. ALL SALES ARE FINAL. THERE WILL BE NO REFUNDS AND NO EXCHANGES. RIAC does not guarantee or make warranties on any lot sold. The bold headline of the description is the only written statement RIAC will guarantee as correct. Descriptions in the catalog are opinion. They are written as an aid to potential bidders. RIAC acknowledges that there may be errors in what is written beyond the bold headline description. RIAC recommends that you personally view any item you bid on or have an acknowledged expert view the item. Statements starting with the word condition are opinions, not statements of fact or guarantees. If a dispute about a lot arises it is the purchaser’s responsibility to provide a written statement by an acknowledged qualified expert within 30 days after the auction that the bold headline is in fact incorrect. The 30 day return period IS NOT calculated from the date payment is made or the date the items are received. The 30 day return period will not be extended due to delay in payment or delay in receipt of the goods. If the expert’s statement is indeed correct RIAC will make a full refund upon return of the merchandise, provided that the merchandise is returned in the same condition it was received. In the unlikely event that you need to return the merchandise to RIAC, Purchaser is responsible for all shipping costs. RIAC must again reiterate the guarantee is only on the bold headline of the description and RIAC will only honor this guarantee within 30 days of an auction. This right to return an item purchased at an auction shall be expressly limited to situations where errors occurred in the bold headline description of an auction item and such 30-day return provision shall not apply to a return of an auction item for any other reason. RIAC will have no further obligation, i.e., no refunds or returns will be accepted, if the above conditions are not met. Items offered for sale as described in the catalog or any bill of sale, advertisement, addendum sheet, or elsewhere as to authorship, period, culture, source, origin, measurement, quality, rarity, provenance, importance, exhibition, or physical condition are qualified statements of opinion and not representations or warranties. No employee of RIAC or any person purporting to act on behalf of RIAC is authorized to make on RIAC’s or the consignor’s behalf, any representation or warranty, oral or written, with respect to any lot or item for sale.
The bold headline is the only guaranteed statement.
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UPS just delivered the 3 volume catalogs for this RIA auction.They are exquisite! Like other auction houses, I'm sure that their clearly stated terms and conditions are the handiwork of a team of skilled lawyers. My cardinal rule for any major purchase of anything is "caveat emptor" or let the buyer beware. When in doubt, back away and if too costly to get into your door with all the associated fees, don't buy it! Hands-on inspections are desirable, but many folks can't do this with all the auction locations that are too distant (fortunately, I am fairly close to Amoskeag's and Poulin's facilities)
Differences of opinion on specific items should make a potential buyer understand the "risk" associated with caveat emptor. When in doubt, ask questions; if still in doubt, don't bid on an item..... In my specific case, Seth promptly sent me non-cataloged photos of a gun of interest as I can't do a hands-on inspection. Auction houses are there to make money by providing service to both the seller and the bidders; unfortunately there are a couple I steer clear of as their help to me is minimal
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This is a very important (and interesting) topic. I certainly painted with too broad a brush when I made my comments--and I am glad to hear how responsive RIA is to corrections--but to suggest that concerns about auction house listings is "mudslinging" paints with even broader brush strokes.
I don't expect auction houses to adjudicate "differences of opinion." But getting matters of fact--undisputable facts--wrong is another thing.
This topic has been discussed here often over the last five or ten years, with specific examples in view. I remember in one instance an auction house did correct a listing. The others times, despite being contacted, they did not. Bottom line is that these listings are the responsibility of the auction houses. I understand that it would take more resources to make them more accurate. Is that an excuse for their inaccuracy? Expecting viewers of these auction listings to make them accurate--sometimes a battering ram will not succeed at shattering the misleading listing--is unacceptable.
Often in these previous discussions it has been said that the auction houses rely heavily on the "research" done by the seller himself. I think we can all see the beginning of the problem there.
As the listings themselves make clear, a lot more is at stake in them than just whether during the life of the auction itself somebody is going to bid or not bid. That's a passing matter. Of more lasting impact is that what a previous poster called the "pedigree" of the gun is established by these listings, which get quoted and requoted (and quote each other). Best way to build up a pedigree for a gun is to sell it a few times with the same information (right or wrong) stated in the auction listing. This pretty much guarantees that that information will forever be associated with that gun, even if it's laughably mistaken.
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By mudslinging, I meant I would not engage in negative comments about other auction houses or individuals, not necessarily saying you or anyone were making doing so themselves.
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as spgordon stated we have been through this several times here. We all know how auction houses work. If you want the item bad enough if it means that much to you be the last bid . Bottom line if you don't have the money don't bid. If you don't have the confidence in what your doing don't bid . Study,study,study.
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Well put!! Thank you.
Al J.
Yes, well said.
Dennis
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as spgordon stated we have been through this several times here. We all know how auction houses work. If you want the item bad enough if it means that much to you be the last bid . Bottom line if you don't have the money don't bid. If you don't have the confidence in what your doing don't bid . Study,study,study.
Excellent advice.
Dennis
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I have purchased guns from most if not all of the nationally recognized auction houses.
Some are better IMO in an accurate description.
As I was passing through Rock Island on Thursday, I made an appointment and stopped at RIA to get a private viewing of a 5 lots I was interested in. They have always been very accommodating. I am not a fan of the fact that they do not list the condition of the bore in their descriptions. All the auction houses I have dealt with will respond to questions and request for additional information or pictures. I even at times have someone from the auction house have the gun in hand while on the phone with them asking questions.
Morphy's have frustrated me with my only two purchases with them.
Amoskeag is my favorite auction house to deal with and IMO I can trust their description. Others I always discount their descriptions and condition, helps with my expectations once it arrives.
Fleener
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I like Rock Island and the people there have been wonderful to deal with. They must sell a $#*! of a lot of guns - if you ever bought any you get their Premier catalogs. Just got my set in the mail for that upcoming September auction - 3 catalogs 2 " thick each, pricey super high gloss paper with High res photos, I have a background in printing and advertising - I can only imagine what it costs to pay the personnel to photograph, catalog (that's a huge job keeping track of all these high end guns), write up the descriptions, and finally get the printer to print and ship to the literally thousands of customers all over the world. These catalogs are as top of the line as they come. Not too mention their web site photos and listings - photos allow you to zoom in until you can see the tiniest hairline scratches. Oh and they sell CLass II automatic machine guns etc - try dealing with that paperwork. None of that is cheap. I'm not going to defend auction houses (though I did help one load and catalog once - swetaed my ass off - lots of furniture) - to sell super high-end pieces, really specially pieces, or large fine collections - they are a great way to go - they will generally negotiate the commission on selling depending on what you are selling and come pick it all up. Poulin Auctions will sellhigh end guns FREE - they want deep pockets to watch the actions. There is a reason when 200 million dollar paintings and stratovarius violins get sold - its usually at Chrities or one of the huge auction houses. People with money (as in where the amount does not matter at all rather 100 or 100K dollars) want concierge service. both buying a selling. Unfortunately, most everything is going global and online. Gun shows a trade shows are drying up. Older collectors dying off and families liquidating collections.
If you can buy or sell to a friend/colleague/table visitor/ or buy from the like "by far the best way to go" - face to face - gun in hand. But rarely do I get to do that. I do bid with 35% overhead and hassle fee on top when bidding - so that is always calculated in my final bid.
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A couple of years ago, I saw a few discrepancies with two or three lots from an auction of the collection of a very noted individual. The lots in question were items in which I have some alleged expertise so I contacted the auction house. They were very responsive and addressed my concerns with those particular lots. The auction house was RIA and the individual I communicated with was Seth. By the way the response time was as close to immediate as you can get.
Kent