AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on November 07, 2023, 12:55:18 AM
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For those who have been involved in collecting for a while, how do current prices compare to those from say 20 years ago? Does this vary with desirability? Have high-end longrifles held their value better? Where do you see prices heading in the future?
Jim
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Oh boy. :o 8) ;D
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I'd say less. In some cases considerably less.
Look at the Beck that Al just bought; less than 20 years ago that would have been more like 45K, maybe more.
In the long run, I see these great old guns dropping more, mainly for lack of interest in younger generations.
Sad, but probably true, although I hope it doesn't go that route.
John
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What John said, the caveat being that an exceptional piece may bring a exhorberant amount if an individual or a museum just "has to have it". That goes for most old guns today, not just muzzleloaders. The only class of firearm I've seen continually rise in price is legally transferable machineguns(Yes, I play with those too though not so much anymore, ammunition getting pricy)-LOL
Steve
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I have only been collecting American Longrifles for 20 years, & they are a lot better deals today. Inflation has not hit them yet, LOL. You should buy it because you love it, not for an investment. You need to love American History to appreciate the American Longrifle. IMO, it's not something that most of the younger generation is interested in or even taught. I doubt you sell any of your collection to them, well, not for what you paid. Hopefully, I am wrong frequently I am. :)
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A friend of mine runs a consulting company in Houston for museums. We had a long conversation on antiques firearms. It seems museums are taking a step away from firearms, the collectors are aging out, and new collectors are not entering the market. Him being in the business for years he's advised me to hold off on purchasing originals as there will be an influx of available pieces In the next 10years with less of a market to purchase them. However, I’m impatient and steady looking!
Obviously cultures can change, and interest can come back and regain prices- I would imagine the antique market ebbs and flows like all markets.
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Agree, at least for the short term I believe values are headed down. But 10-20-30 years from now could be a Renaissance. Doubt I’ll be around to see it.
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JMHO but I think the pieces that will have value and will hold value as time keeps on keepin on will be the pieces that have not been molested. And that is an exceptionally small pool. Speaking for myself, I have no interest in a wood sliver with some metal bits that is now 75% contemporary.
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I bought a decent 1/2 stock British sporting rifle at Friendship for $1200 40 years ago. Sold it here a few months ago for $1500. I think the average American longrifle would be about the same story. Agree with the other comments already posted.
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I wonder if some of the devaluation is due to the Internet auctions. I used to collect Winchesters, and sometimes it took me years to find a specific variation of a model I liked. I would go to gun shops, newspaper ads, & auctions. You might find it in Shotgun News. But now you can get on the internet and find any variation you want in 5 minutes. I'm not saying it is that easy to find the antique longrifle you want, but there are long rifle auctions on the internet every few weeks. It better be a killer to bring the big bucks. But the unmolested ones, as Erics says, are the rare birds.
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Even based on my limited time in this collecting field (about 5 whopping years), I think market values have dropped and I suspect that trend will continue for a while longer. How low will they go and how long will the trend continue is anyone's guess and that's all it can be...a guess. There are so many components that go into "value" in this context, but I would contend that discussing some of the root causes here would more than nibble at politics, so I'll just let that slide. Suffice to say, if you're looking at long rifles as a good monetary investment, you'd do better to just throw darts at the stock prices in those long columns in the Wall Street Journal. It's also not just long rifles. Take a look at antique furniture. It's a cliche but a good one: If it's brown, it's down. Why? Probably many of the same market forces affecting long rifle values. However, if you collect these rifles because, like me, you are fascinated by the subject matter and they're not part of an ill-advised retirement plan, then the future is probably very bright for really nice examples at increasingly affordable prices.
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The good thing is, it is a buyers' market, the bad thing is, I already spent all my money, :(
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The Sirskin (Sp?) auction seems to have started the decline in Kentucky Rifle sales and values. Most of those once great rifles had been heavily restored. I drove to Maine to preview the auction and was amazed at the number of rifles that had been worked on, hard. One rifle that sold for over $60,000.00 (if memory serves me right) was nothing more than a butt stock. After that debacle the prices for longrifles plummeted. It’s come back some, but mainly for quality untouched guns. But quality will always maintain its value. The money and collectors are still out there, Poulin’s just got $65,000.00 for a Bowie knife, that says a lot about antique weapon collectors. The bottom line is, never pay retail for heavily restored guns, unfortunately they’re a bad investment now and always will be.
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Speaking only to the low end, from limited experience. I’ve over-paid for several of my few low end original guns in a very modest collection. But I figure, what would it cost me to have this built by a contemporary master? What would it cost me to build it? Can I learn from having this an original in hand? I’m seeing originals on the low end go for 2/3 what it would cost to have a master builder replicate. And their work would have no historical value to me. It wasn’t “there”.
One could argue, these old guns aren’t “shooters” so you’re comparing apples and oranges, but I can’t shoot all the guns I’ve made and kept, regularly, and am better off shooting one rifle and one fowler anyway. So, when some original pops up in auction that excites me, and I can get it for a couple thousand dollars, I’ll give it a try now and then.
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I've been doing this for more than 40 years so I'll take a stab at answering. I think there's an emotional side that hasn't been mentioned yet. Take the movie line from Jeremiah Johnson "He was looking for a Hawken gun, .50 caliber or better. He settled for a .30, but @!*%, it was a genuine Hawken... you couldn't go no better." This helped spark a craze for any gun with the name Hawken from the early 1970's to this day.
I used to have a man and woman that walked their dog by my shop every day. The man was interested but the woman refused to even touch a gun let alone one being made by hand. Carried a tanned elk robe across my shoulder at work one time some liked it and others would recoil in horror and move as far away as possible. Both examples of pure emotional response based on some unknown factor. Same applies to guns of any kind by some individual people.
I think overall current prices are higher than they were 20 years ago but people still react emotionally when they place value on them either high or low. A modern gunsmith once told me when I was bragging about my rifles. "There's only 2 kinds of muzzleloaders the first kind is only worth about a dollar and the second kind is worth nothing at all."
I think high end rifles hold their value better and are usually more desirable. Throw in an emotional attachment to a famous person real or fictional and the sky is the limit on price.
I think the future of these guns while obviously unknown will still have an emotional component to it. I see a disturbing trend towards erasing our heritage and pride in how our country was created. More reactions like what I experienced with that elk robe on my shoulder than kids wearing coonskin caps everyday like I did.
For me I will continue to enjoy the hunt for more of these kind of rifles the only limit is my critical eye and expensive taste! ;D
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I would agree with Frank. I think the Sirkin sale was a watershed event for antique longrifle collecting. Try to get pieces that are in "untouched" condition. These are getting harder to find as collectors mess with their guns. I have three guns that are in that condition. I leave the original dust on them. Not even an oily rag.
Al
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One more thing about prices. The Medad Hills COS musket in Poulins auction. I bought that gun from England for 6K 15 years ago. I traded in for more 10 years ago. Now at auction it brought 40K plus fees, taxes and shipping, about 50K. Good guns still bring good prices.
A;
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I never see the really nice examples dropping off a cliff and likely climbing in value when we hit the tricentennial depending on the situation in the country and the world at that time. They will always have plenty of demand as there is almost certainly always going to be plenty of affluent antique gun collectors as there have been for as long as firearms have been around. Those are the guys that drive the prices up on a lot of stuff bidding against each other, and the high end stuff from otherwise "weak categories" seem to just be going up and up even though lower condition examples are basically given away.
There isn't as much in pop culture these days driving interest in antique firearms in general compared to 20th century and current firearms that are more likely to be able to be shot. When most of the collectors on here were growing up, there were a lot of cowboy and frontier movies and tv series; today, not so much. Instead right now we have a lot of movies on more recent conflicts and a fair number of veterans of those conflicts. Culture drives interest in particular kinds of guns. "Tactical" stuff is all the rage. I'm guessing some of the newer western type stuff has generated more interest in some of the classic pieces from those eras. Maybe the new Napoleon biopic will get some more interest in flintlocks.
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Longrifles are going the way of 95% of the other American antiques, down. If you watch Antiques Roadshow on TV, they commonly re-do a show from 15 or 20 years ago, showing the item and it's appraisal at that time. Then they show the updated appraisal, today. In most cases the item is down by 20-50%. That can be for a $20,000 artwork, or a $400 colonial mug...almost all are down.
I went to an estate sale a couple months ago, the guy was a bigtime early American Pewter collector. Chargers, tankards, whale oil lamps abounded. They were selling most items for $7 a piece. SEVEN dollars. Sure, it was an estate sale, they had to sell it all in one day. I bought 10 items, and came home to research the going rate. Most were about $30-50 in value.
Great gain you say? But not for the original owner - I also found his purchase ledger records, each item carefully documented. Most items he'd bought back in the 60s and 70s and most for at least $150. Some were $300 or more. ALL of these sold for under $50, most for $7. His estate was in the hole by the tune of thousands or 10s of thousands of dollars for his lifetime Pewter collection. He paid enought to have bought a house back then, the market today paid enough to buy a cheap bicycle.
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The other factor missing on price comparison is the inflation the US dollar is worth 1/7 of its value from the 1970’s. So the loss in value is 7 times greater than the face value….
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I’m not sure how to attach a link to this site, but it’s easy enough to find in Google. This article is from June and according to the article, antiques are coming back in fashion with Millennials and prices are rising again. I guess only time will tell.
(https://i.ibb.co/1RjvvcS/IMG-4556.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mhgDDpx)
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Buy it because you like it. You can’t take that money with you when you go.
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Like most things, demand will go up and down. But I am sure there will always be interest becase these are unique and historical. There are also simply more and more people - and many are researching their heritage. Future potential collectors!
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The Sirkin Collection, John and I have repeatedly called that debacle the kiss of death. A good example of the downward trend are the auction results of Louie Parker’s collection. All great guns, most were untouched with a few that were lightly restored and only two brought the big dollars. The good guns will most definitely sell better, but the days of the $50k to $100k rifles are gone.
Buck
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I bought a decent 1/2 stock British sporting rifle at Friendship for $1200 40 years ago. Sold it here a few months ago for $1500. I think the average American longrifle would be about the same story. Agree with the other comments already posted.
A high end gun that gained only $300 in 40 years? Willing seller + willing buyer will determine the cost/value of any commodity whether it be guns,cars,vintage aircraft.Some relics have reached the absurd such as a car once belonging to an actor sold for $20,000,000 + a $2,000,000 buyers fee.I think this was in 2018.Barnum was right!
Bob Roller
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The good guns will most definitely sell better, but the days of the $50k to $100k rifles are gone.
Buck
If a full-stock Hawken can get to $141,000, those days aren't completely gone, and there is still time to see a resurgence in the values of the best longrifles. I know I catalogued at least a handful that sold in the $30,000-$75,000 range in the last few years. I don't see guns with major restoration taking off in value again, but solid rifles will still be worth money, the question will be how much. What was the reasoning behind rifles going for $50,000-100,000 in the past? What drove prices that high at the time?
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If a full-stock Hawken can get to $141,000, those days aren't completely gone, and there is still time to see a resurgence in the values of the best longrifles. I know I catalogued at least a handful that sold in the $30,000-$75,000 range in the last few years. I don't see guns with major restoration taking off in value again, but solid rifles will still be worth money, the question will be how much. What was the reasoning behind rifles going for $50,000-100,000 in the past? What drove prices that high at the time?
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I think prices were rising a little each year maybe about 10%. They were being bought buy people for the love of the item the pure joy of having one. Then the Siirkin debacle . I believe that was caused be investors. No that's to kind of word. Greedy men men out to make money on a naive uninformed person. One guy was buying a rifle for say ten grand selling it for twenty to the go between who dropped it on the naive collector for thirty. In my opinion that started the ball rolling bringing the price of the lesser value longrifles up. A $3000,00 rifle instead of going up maybe &500. was all of a sudden bringing $2000.00 more. I would guess some of the folks who bought at the high end probably lost some of there enthusiasm and dropped out. My thoughts for what it's worth. Oh that $141,000. Hawken was an other uninformed buyer IMHO
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As long as I got started on this. I think the collector community for Longrifles is a lot smaller than for the other antique firearms. An auction with a large number of high end Kentuckey's is to much for the market to bear all at once. If spread out between two or three auctions they might bring more money.
On Louies auction I think this was the case. I know of two different people who have contacted buyers from that auction and offered them a profit on there purchase. One guy offered $15,000. more than what was paid but didn't get the job done. Jim
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Oh that $141,000. Hawken was an other uninformed buyer IMHO
Must be more than one, though, because he didn't bid it up that high all by himself!
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Oh that $141,000. Hawken was an other uninformed buyer IMHO
Must be more than one, though, because he didn't bid it up that high all by himself!
I stand corrected . Two uninformed buyers where price was no object.
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Oh that $141,000. Hawken was an other uninformed buyer IMHO
Must be more than one, though, because he didn't bid it up that high all by himself!
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I stand corrected . Two uninformed buyers where price was no object.
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It only takes two bucks up guys, where it's more about beating the other guy, than buying the gun.....
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I think if someone really wants something for a collection and he/she has the money they will buy it. As the older generation dies out this will also decline with muzzleloading. If younger people are not exposed to it they will not have an interest. In today's world nerf guns are more popular, very sad!
I believe only the high end pieces will hold some sort of value in the future, hope I am wrong.
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Seems like when a big collection of long rifles hits the market all at once, as many are doing these days, the market suffers.Coupled with the fact that most of the well to do kids below 40 years old that I know, who could invest in a top end gun if they wanted to, seem like they’d rather spend the big money in a vintage Nintendo rather than even consider a gun of any sort. I think the market is softening substantially and will probably continue to do so. The culture is really changing.
Tim A
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Best thing to do in go to Ebay and buy old auction catalogs. They are dirt cheap. I have a bunch of Civil War related North South Trader, etc magazines going back to the late 80's and early 90's. I decent mid war year 1860 Colt with good cylinder scene was 3500 to 4500 not adjusted for inflation. Same gun now maybe 1500 to 1800.
KY rifles can be in a league of their own if they are the "best of the best". I bit on a 1742 Brown Bess recently that was broken in half and put back together with copper bands - BUT - every single part was correct on the musket. So it was a hard used French Indian war English military Land Pattern Musket. I dropped out at 20K and it kept going. Estimate was 6 - 8K which I thought was correct. Emotions and a rich man had to have it.
Rock Island is not hurting for business - their new TX catalog is 3 volumes 2 inch thick each. Weight about 10 lbs!!!! There are lots and lots of 6 figure items in that auction that will make those prces. But they are the "Sam Houston presentation..." type items.
I'm rather new o 20 years collecting - Everything I collect has stayed the same or increased if its "TOP GRADE". A gentleman above mentioned American Pewter - not sure what Estate sale that was but a late 1700s Pewter Tankard with a touchmark by a known maker is a 3000 - 10K piece all day long at every auction. I collect early 1700's English Pewter mugs that are engraved with "Wiggle Work" or the owners name - they are not cheap - most 500 - 1500 and they are REALLY HARD to find.
Buy what you love - love it - if you make money "GREAT!!", if you break even or lose money due to inflation or just sell for rock bottom price "that was the fee to enjoy it".
Collecting anything is NOT an investment - its NOT - no matter what anyone calls it. No item does anything but sit, no dividends, no rent, no nothing - it just sits to look at. Its a worst a gamble or addiction and at best - a hobby to enjoy.
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With all things posted here subjective Im 66 guns have been part of my life since I was fifteen . I don't see young people supporting the hobby I at the present helping a friend sell his collection his immediate family has no interest . I don't see prices or interest sustainable - a gun shop 8 miles from my house I've done business with for years I've never seen his inventory of vintage English guns so strong the prices are way down . He claims his customer base is dying from what I see prices are down Europe & USA on antique firearms .
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BradBrownBess, thanks for the comments. You bring up the point many are making. That the best of the best will (may?) stay high. But I'd like to make the big, important point that it's ONLY the best of the best. Everything else is slipping way down in values. In almost every area of Antiques, from Hudson Valley artwork, to Colonial furniture, to guns. And Pewter. I went back and looked at all the pieces I bought, I tried to get only touchmarked items, and tried to get only American. But I was a novice (more schooled now). So my earliest piece was a Laurent Morand charger 11 1/2" marked Lyon "AC". When I got home I identified it as French from 1711-1720. So it's only worth about $170. I paid $7, it was a VERY well advertised auction of a famous Tucson artist. There were people coming from several states away. They were mostly interested in the artwork...the Pewter tables were very lightly visited the first 15 min, I got my pick. Oh, and the records showed he paid $150 for the plate, back in about 1973. So he lost bigtime. Here are some others I got, I've already looked up their values. Seem WAY down from 20-40 years ago:
9 in Thomas Danforth Boardman plate with Lion touchmark and XX. Hartford
7 7/8 Thomas Danforth with Eagle touchmark.
I also got a wiggle work creamer for $7.
Again, this guy collected for his entire life, and had his records of where and when he bought all the pewter. It sold this year for pennies on the dollar.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53376167982_d9f02f1009_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53377416184_2f69234b27_b.jpg)
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I bought a 55 gallon drum of old pewter from a customer melted it down in to alloy ingots for casting bullets geez never gave it a second thought after a Spectro gun analysis I paid $2.00 a pound . Im sure it was someones collection - Estate clean up out of a rolloff .
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I think that a lot of the younger generation has little or no interest in antiques. My 30 year old daughter goes with me to the gun shows and she is always telling me how young she feels at these. Heck I am 61 and I feel like I drank from the fountain of youth compared to the majority of attendees. I think the best of the best sometimes comes down to older folks who have always wanted some of these pieces but through a lifetime of collecting have no more desire for anything else, except some of the top tier items. I almost feel sorry for a lot of folks who only collect for the monetary value of things. I collect, or hoard if you ask my wife, things because I enjoy their association with history in one form or another. If I bought that Beck at Bonhams auction, it would be because I thought it was pretty awesome, not because I thought it was a business investment. AKA known as why I'm not good businessman.
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I will buck the trend here- seeing some lower prices on wood box guns like the Beck that just sold is fantastic for < 50 year old guys like me who have been priced out of Rev War era American rifles such as this, of course I'm collecting modestly because I love this stuff and not for investment purposes.
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I have really enjoyed the comments. But what I have noticed in 50 some years of buying and selling firearms of all types. A lot has to do with location of the market where you are trying to sell your item.
In my neck of the woods their is not a real interest in Longrifles and even true collectables don't draw any serious money. Most antiques or contemporary custom guns draw less than a grand and some way less.
For the serious collector I think their will always be a bidding price war.
Because they want it. Price will an always will not matter to them.
What works for people like me lol. Is when their handed down and the
relatives dump them for quick cash. Seen this way to often.
At one time I tried to appraise firearms for people to help them get a fair price. It went very well for a longtime. But this new generation just doesn't care. They just want the quick buck and get rid of it. JMPO
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I will buck the trend here- seeing some lower prices on wood box guns like the Beck that just sold is fantastic for < 50 year old guys like me who have been priced out of Rev War era American rifles such as this, of course I'm collecting modestly because I love this stuff and not for investment purposes.
Agreed. As a relatively young guy (under 40) I'd love to see prices that are more affordable. I know several people my age and younger who are very interested. But we're all trying to buy houses, raise kids, etc.
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Current prices are difficult to judge as too many variables come into play i.e. the item, sale year, dwindling buyer base – buyers too old, change of popular media, rising anti-gun culture, and all the other points made here, but don’t forget the causes within our own community.
Add factors like the failure of the original long rifle organizations to recognize their professed mission and develop marketing plans to promote the historic value of the long rifle (beyond its membership). Example – look at how the American decoy collectors turned a $5.00 piece of wood into a $50,000. folk art collectible. Those collectors worked at getting that result back in the sixties. Most every waterside state in America now has a public decoy museum-we have 3 in Maryland. Where are the American long rifle museums?
Why did icons like Joe Kindig, Jr, Henry Kauffman, and William Renwick not join the KRA, along with museum curators and historians - shouldn’t they have been more enticed?
And don't forget the years of Tefft forgeries and other nefarious dealer activity that turned Herman Dean, Renwick, and hundreds of others against the market for very early guns.
Until 1971 and the famous Historic Society York Show no one credible group was putting on exhibitions to the public. The KRA was just formed, but they called it an exclusive club and never invited the general public into their shows, so they never put on any public exhibitions. There was a long stretch from that York show until 2009 and (forgive me) my exhibit at the Berks County, Reading show – the first sizeable exhibit of long rifles in almost 15 years. Apparently, the American Society of Arms Collectors was never much for public exhibitions, leaving only commercial gun shows as the source for the public’s appreciation of the long rifle.
But if you think the market is still OK, look at the current Rock Island auction results. What appeared to be a decent Haga-attributed rifle went for $17,000. I picked this rifle because this period and particular style of rifle has very much in common with every other Haga attribution sold in recent years. Ten years ago, one very similar sold for $55,000. at the Baltimore Show. Flayderman sold one for $35,000. and another for $27,000. from his catalog, I sold one for $44,000. about the same time. Then there is the Simon Miller rifle, another of his basic designs that just sold for $4,250., three have sold in the previous five-six years - one for $12,000., 14,000, and 15,000.
Then look at the Winchester 76 Centennial which sold for $200,000.+ – nothing against the collectors, but where is the hand-made, early craftsmanship of great historic value? Was it simply that Winchester and Colt were better promoted in an age of mass communication? Historic importance should equal value, but that doesn’t seem to be the case with America’s first firearms.
I agree that the Sirkin sale hurt the market, as will any sale with too many goodies at one time, but it was certainly not the catalyst for the downtrend in prices. The downward trend seems more complicated to me.
Patrick Hornberger
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Very interesting take and quite thought-provoking.
One thing I would add - the Sirkin sale *imho* did not hurt the market because of too much too fast (the 'fast and furious' Sirkin sale? ;D ) but rather because it was super-hyped, and then given the hype, many people who may have been ready to spend big as well as many big spenders perhaps ready to really bulk up on a collection etc suddenly got a very, VERY eye opening experience as to just how horribly many of these old guns have been buggered and how equally horribly 'experts' and auction houses over the years had been willing to completely overlook the buggery for a buck. I have spoken to a number of people who were extremely put off and who I am positive may have otherwise spent a lot of freaking money and kept the ball rolling.
That sale alone now has everyone and his brother giving literally everything the stink eye.
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Add factors like the failure of the original long rifle organizations to recognize their professed mission and develop marketing plans to promote the historic value of the long rifle (beyond its membership). Example – look at how the American decoy collectors turned a $5.00 piece of wood into a $50,000. folk art collectible. Those collectors worked at getting that result back in the sixties. Most every waterside state in America now has a public decoy museum-we have 3 in Maryland. Where are the American long rifle museums?
Why did icons like Joe Kindig, Jr, Henry Kauffman, and William Renwick not join the KRA, along with museum curators and historians - shouldn’t they have been more enticed?
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Until 1971 and the famous Historic Society York Show no one credible group was putting on exhibitions to the public. The KRA was just formed, but they called it an exclusive club and never invited the general public into their shows, so they never put on any public exhibitions. There was a long stretch from that York show until 2009 and (forgive me) my exhibit at the Berks County, Reading show – the first sizeable exhibit of long rifles in almost 15 years. Apparently, the American Society of Arms Collectors was never much for public exhibitions, leaving only commercial gun shows as the source for the public’s appreciation of the long rifle.
I agree with all that Patrick posted--and want to add something to these particular points, especially his description of rifle collectors as an "exclusive club" who shield their collections from the public. This issue, in one way or another, has come up a lot over the years on this forum. Among other things, the continued private ownership of most longrifles means that access to them is carefully controlled--and this shapes not just how many (or few) people get to see them but what has been said about them. So few of these objects are in museums, where--as is the case with any other "fine art" (from paintings to decoys)--anybody can inspect them, analyze them, and publish their findings about them. They are difficult to access and the points of access are carefully controlled.
Eric makes the same point, I think, when he notes that "'experts' and auction houses over the years ha[ve] been willing to completely overlook the buggery for a buck." The closed fraternity that sold or traded these objects to one another all had an interest in not saying certain things. Questionable claims, made assertively to an audience who was sure to nod approvingly, settled in as fact. For better or for worse, the days when closed fraternities can "manage" things as they could in the past--before social media, say, or lists such as these--are over.
It's always struck me as extremely odd that the research produced by this field since the 1980s--from the KRA Bulletin to the Moravian Gunmaking Books or other KRF publications--are in so few public or university libraries. It's not surprising, for the reasons I've mentioned above, but it helps guarantee this small, inward-looking audience. We live in a world of open access. I'm thrilled that ASAC has made the contents of its bulletins (before a certain date? I'm not sure) freely accessible on the internet. KRA hasn't. Instead, it keeps this research restricted to an "exclusive club."
I don't think this is the way to build interest in a topic anymore, however it may have worked in the past.
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As a life-long gun collector (45 years) I can relate my perceptions. The popularity of gun types (or any antique collecible) rises and falls. I'm relatively new to long rifles, if they've "always gone up" in value, that's unusual, relative to other types. Two overall trends are here:
1. Gun types that were collectible before are no longer, but some types that were not valuable before are now. Most of this can be tracked to the decline in hunting guns of all types, and the rise of defensive guns. For example, it used to be fine hunting shotguns like Parkers and Brownings were very desirable when I was growing up. Military trench guns or short riot guns were ignored, in favor of a long barreled, finely blued, high grade walnut gun. Today the Trench shotguns (even fakes) are $3000, but a fine Browning or Fox shotgun sells for about $400. Same with target guns. Americans used to revere marksmen, and accuracy mattered. Colt Woodsmen, High Standards, Winchester 52s, are ALL way down. But Seecamp and Kimber guns made for concealed carry are becoming hugely expensive. During the buckskinner days when I was young, or the Civil War reenacter days, black powder was very cool and lots of young people got into it. My first gun was black powder, much to the dismay of my father, who came from the cowboy rennasaince days of the 1950s. Oh, and Cowboy Action shooting is declining too. If people want to dress up, they don't want to dress cowboy, they want to dress up tactical, or "tacti-cool."
2. Americans today aren't interested in early American history. Not much made in the 1600s to 1800s is as collected as it was 25 years ago. Or 40 years ago. From Pewter to Depression Glass, from hit and miss engines to chippendale furniture, all are down in values from highs seen in our lifetimes. But if we ARE interested in history, it is from WWII on. Fine finished pre-war Colts are way down. Rough wartime finished Colt 1911A1s way up. Victorian and Art Deco are down. Mid Century Modern are up.
I've spent a lifetime gun collecting things that were down, not up. Like stocks, I try to buy low. I keep my mind on selling high, not that I've ever sold yet. But I know what is popular and booming, and what people are saying will "always go up!" while rubbing their hot hands together - I avoid. I quietlty pick things that I think are undervalued but over-quality compared to what others are excitedly looking for. A few years ago I found I could actually AFFORD long rifles, after being priced out during the 70s, 80s, and 90s. So now I'm buing a few. But I don't chase the "best Kentucky makers". I buy sleepers. Things I find important, not what the MARKET does. This technique was reinforced by a famous black powder shooter that you may have heard of, in an article he wrote about collecting long ago - Val Forgett. But I've seen what other big collectors do too, and learned from them.
In summary, I've seen many fads in gun collecting. Prices have shot up, peaked, and the bubble has popped on many areas. Sometimes the bubble is 20 years, sometimes more like 10. If Longrifles haven't experienced it yet, it may just mean the "peaking period" was longer than for other genres.
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Excellent points Scott.
In any field of research, one would *assume* that the most accurate research and most direct observations will likely be made by those who have no financial stake in the object of subject being discussed. Because this specific area of collecting has been "closed" and very fraternal for so long, it is clear that an unspecified (by me) amount of available research is jaded. When you own a specific item, whatever it may be, I think it's human nature to wish to {(at the least) preserve the monetary value of that item if not increase it. I find it extremely interesting - and expected - that virtually all speculative or hypothetical proffering revolving around these arms virtually always is speculative in favor of something that increases value.
It has also been my experience (just speaking for myself and some others with whom this has been discussed previously) that because the majority of the arms are privately owned, it has generally been considered rude or inconsiderate to challenge/contradict what the owner believes. This is something of a turn-off to potential collectors who (again, IMHO) may wish for a free and open discussion of something and would prefer not to feel the need to walk on eggshells.
I think going forward, as has been the case for some time now, the most coveted and sought pieces are going to be those which have not been touched and have escaped the loving attentions bestowed upon so many of their unfortunate brethren!
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Yep, that's why my posts on any collectible's future value falling always makes friends and influences people! I've lost friends over saying something be BOTH collect may go down in value soon. Then when it proved true, 6-8 years later the guy comes back around and wants to get reacquainted. We never speak of my proficy again, and just become friends about other topics.
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In my subjective opinion AZshot has explained the atmosphere . I totally agree!
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I’m pleased to see there is some consensus with my comments, but reading it over in the light of a new day I’d like to re-enforce a few comments made by Scott and add some other points.
Scott talks about the lack of long rifle books/publications in museums, etc. and this is an important failure that should be exposed. The printed word in all forms is clearly getting harder to sell and selling books on any subject to any store today is a real challenge. One of the outstanding experiences I had was selling the book, Masterpieces of the American Long Rifle, the Joe Kindig, Jr, collection – a book I’m not too proud of regarding the text, but a book that was precisely designed to appeal to the general reader of any American cultural artifact. It presented an overview of historic connections to the rifles, quality print/binding, good sources, vintage photos, index, etc., even though it was admittedly a puff piece for the Kindig collection.
You all know by now, old Joe’s relationship with Henry Dupont in establishing Winterthur, which led me to assume the Winterthur bookstore (a store with an exceptional inventory of books on early American culture), would be a natural outlet for the book. I visited the store manager. Yes, she understood the Kindig connection, but she would have to have the “board” approve the book. I waited with no word for weeks. I called back and was told the board would not approve it for sale. Stunned, I called my friend, the late Bill Dupont (the family still has a say in Winterthur) – and he said he would call them. He did, only to be told the reason was the book was about “guns”. They did not sell the book, even though they displayed some famous long rifles (sold by Kindig) in the next building. It’s time to recognize that the public does not know the difference between a Gonter and a Glock. Who didn't tell them years ago?
Another surprising reaction in another direction was from the NRA bookstore manager. He (I wont say who), implied they had too many books on “early guns’, but they would “try” 3 copies. Need I say one can’t make a profit selling 3 books at wholesale rates. Very telling about the NRA focus.
Without beating the already dead horse, has anyone wondered why the KRA annual show gets stuck in one region for years, why some of the KRA satellite shows are not open to the public, or why in the age of cell phones they still don’t allow photography at the annual show? Or, since the annual show is basically a commercial gun show – why isn’t it open to the public on one of its two days? Are these measures good for the growth of the subject in today's dwindling market of interest and sales? Why do we keep preaching to the aging choir?
And finally, why is there no credible, not-for-profit, national group of collectors, historians, and those of some specific authority acting as a clearing house for historically accurate writing and publication, whose mission is the concentrated research, promotion, and dissemination of information on the earliest handmade firearms (pre-Civil War) – one that is not spread thin by the inclusion of every firearm in our past.
I won't go on…
Patrick Hornberger
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...
And finally, why is there no credible, not-for-profit, national group of collectors, historians, and those of some specific authority acting as a clearing house for historically accurate writing and publication, whose mission is the concentrated research, promotion, and dissemination of information on the earliest handmade firearms (pre-Civil War) – one that is not spread thin by the inclusion of every firearm in our past.
I won't go on…
Patrick Hornberger
For groups, how about https://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/
For current publications:
Man at Arms for the Gun and Sword Collector
Muzzleloader magazine
And a few others that are more obscure.
On the surface, it's a chicken and the egg paradox:
Early arms aren't popular because there isn't much writing about them.
There isn't much writen about early arms because they aren't popular.
But as others have outlined, having more writing is not going to suddenly gather long rifle collectors. It takes a love of history, not being taught. It take exciting movies and TV shows that are rarely made. It takes people looking for official expertise to read, but most spend their time on forums written by "everyone."
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It took me a couple decades for me to figure out collectors don't like to be asked who did the restoration work on thier guns. I have been told there was no restoration more times than I can remember when the work is visible when you know where to look. These days I just look at their guns and say "nice gun" and move on down the line. Everybody stays happy that way.
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Yes, I considered the ASAC society, but as I said, they consider all arms, even up to 1960s. I was only thinking of a group focused on pre-Civil War arms--the start of manufactured machine-made arms. And not another "social club", but more of a study group. I have nothing against social clubs or the ASAC, just don't think they fill the void specializing on early firearm history appreciation. By the way, putting their publications online is to be commended, KRA doesn't, as Scott mentioned.
Man at Arms magazine is a good general source, but they are a broad brush also, not an advocate for early guns only. With roughly 14,000 circulation I wonder how their reader's subject interest is broken down. Maybe due for a study - then again their advertisers may not want to hear it.
Muzzle Loaders magazine may be the purest of the lot, yet even here they rightfully talk a lot about building, restoration, and shooting - related subjects fer sure but not a study group.
AZ got it right - "early arms aren't popular because there isn't much written about them". I wasn't suggesting more writing, although we have along way to go in that area. Think books on Upper Susquehanna guns, or Lehigh, Bucks County, and all the other areas of study not published in any credible form.
One of the ways to illustrate my point is when the State of Pennsylvania, encouraged by some Lehigh County, Jacobsburg collectors suggested the state assign the Pennsylvania long rifle as the "official rifle of Pennsylvania", kinda like the official flower. The information submitted to a local state representative was historically wrong. I called some I knew at the Pa Historic Commission in Harrisburg. They said they had no control over historic matters with the State legislation. So I wrote the Governor - he never responded - but the Philadelphia Enquirer called me and wanted to know what was wrong with it. I gave them my opinion. Their response was "what authority can verify my information"? Having no one better I suggested the KRA, but I figured it would be better for an ex-KRA President with more clout than me to get a solid response. I won't mention who - but the KRA response was something like - it wasn't within the KRA's purview (my words).
The Allentown Call newspaper also called me, as did the Harrisburg, Reading, and Lancaster papers, all wanting some kind of independent opinion with some authority. They went with what I told them, supported by friends who also wrote and called. In the end, under pressure from a few of us, and the bad press, the sponsoring State Delegate looking rather stupid had the wording changed in the Bill which finally passed. I think you will now find the House Bill in the records, washed down, but accurate enough and curiously combined with the Piper Club airplane as the Official Pennsylvania Long Rifle and Official airplane in one bill.
In short, no one credible source existed to convince the public (the press), that the Pennsylvania rifle was indeed an item of historic importance worthy of recognition. By the way, Scott Gordon was aware of this fiasco, in case you want more inside info.
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I'm in complete agreement with Eastwind and I'll add my own take on the subject as someone who is not a collector of long rifles (at least not those made in Pennsylvania or the south). As collecting matures provenence and untampered with condition are becoming more and more important. Unfortunately, American longrifles are probably the most tampered with artifact in gun collecting. This, by itself, has kept me away from them even when I could afford one. I have a small collection of NE rifles but those, being the red-headed stepchild of collecting, are far less likely to have been altered, modified or over-restored.
As many of you know, I'm affiliated with Man at Arms for the Gun & Sword Collector magazine. In the past 32 years you could count the articles submitted to us on American longrifles on you fingers and likely have a hand left over. Quite frankly, longrifle collecting is virtually invisible to anyone outside the "inner loop". There is some very good work being done now with primary documentation but if it never sees the light of day outside a very insular community how in the world can we expect new people to develop an interest in them?
I never could understand the duck decor thing!
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Just on a positive note, Man at Arms magazine quite a number of years ago (don't ask me or I'll have to go dig out the issue) had an absolutely wonderful article on Thomas Earle. I was very impressed.
The bottom line is that opening up the vaulted doors of the KY rifle community to a much wider audience is also going to open up much more critical research, critical examination and overall criticism in general. Thus far, apparently this is not particularly desired. It's happening nonetheless whether desired or not, because human beings can't help but to inevitably croak and their inheritors tend to go for $$$ and sell off collections. Subsequently, the auction houses get their mitts on these things and since virtually everything is available visually and instantly now with the click of the 'return' key, it's all eventually going to be out there warts and all. I see this as a net positive (not the croaking part, but the all out in the open part).
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Quote from Eric K. “It has also been my experience (just speaking for myself and some others with whom this has been discussed previously) that because the majority of the arms are privately owned, it has generally been considered rude or inconsiderate to challenge/contradict what the owner believes. This is something of a turn-off to potential collectors who (again, IMHO) may wish for a free and open discussion of something and would prefer not to feel the need to walk on eggshells.
I think going forward, as has been the case for some time now, the most coveted and sought pieces are going to be those which have not been touched and have escaped the loving attentions bestowed upon so many of their unfortunate brethren!”
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I agree with your assessment of this first paragraph and earlier statements questioning why KRA is so closed. I’ve at times hesitated to express my thoughts for fear of offending a gun owner and becoming pariah to him and those he holds sway with. If you did that 4-5 times you might have no friends remaining at all in this tiny community. It hasn’t bothered me much because opinions are like _______s, mine included. I gave up the need to be right some time ago, but I will say this IMHO. I’ve heard many talk about how rifles untouched in the black are the cats meow, but I’ve seen many more dollars spent by the buyers of slicked up shined up. I do wish the KRA would open up a bit. By no means wide open but moving toward inclusion.
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By the way, Scott Gordon was aware of this fiasco, in case you want more inside info.
I remember it well!
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I’ve at times hesitated to express my thoughts for fear of offending a gun owner and becoming pariah to him and those he holds sway with. If you did that 4-5 times you might have no friends remaining at all in this tiny community.
I am so interested in these comments, which a number of people have shared on this thread, since it is what I have long suspected. (I am not a collector of longrifles, so have no personal experience of this.) Controlling access controls a lot more than that, often in subtle and sometimes in not such subtle ways.
When this topic has come up before, list members who, in their professional lives, are necessarily involved in the peer review process often contribute some remarks. The peer review process has flaws and can be abused but, in my own opinion, is necessary to ensure good research. When I write articles and submit them to journals, anonymous people assess them and submit comments. It is a lot of work for journals to recruit these experts (who are not paid, and for whom it is a chore), and it is often humbling and even painful to receive the comments (because who doesn't think their own work is perfect in every word!). But the process always improves the piece of writing and, sometimes, prevents bad stuff from being published.
I don't expect such a system to happen in this instance. But the more push back, the better. Always. If the claims about an object can be defended or substantiated, they'll survive the push back.
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Patrick,
As always, excellent. The additional contributions to the discussion were excellent as well, one of the best threads IMHO in quite sometime.
Buck
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[quote author=Eric Kettenburg
Just on a positive note, Man at Arms magazine quite a number of years ago (don't ask me or I'll have to go dig out the issue) had an absolutely wonderful article on Thomas Earle. I was very impressed.
Eric, I beleive that article was written by Fay Parker. Along with the bio of Earle there was a period painting of him that Louie had along with a rifle made by Thomas Earle.
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If the claims about an object can be defended or substantiated, they'll survive the push back.
I want that on a shirt. ;D
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I’m glad to see Joe Puleo join in, as he is on a unique perch at Man at Arms magazine to observe the big picture of the business of antique guns. Particularly interesting is his comment on long rifles being the most tampered-with guns. He is right. No doubt that has put off many potential collectors. Unfortunately, the simplicity of the construction of our earliest firearms lends itself better to being “mucked” with than many other guns, particularly foreign guns of the same period, leading to so many questions of condition. Joe knows that and therefore has stayed in a safer zone of collecting. His point of the lack of writing extended to long rifles in his magazine is also well-taken. This ties into Scott’s comments about peer reviews, etc., and the challenge to write any kind of opinion, waiting for the critical onslaught. Writing anything in any kind of complete form to make a point is hard work and I wouldn't expect any scholar to do so without some kind of payback. And IMHO if you are going to write anything for peer review or the general public you gracefully take the flack - or you shouldn’t be writing.
If you look at the literature on the American long rifle, you would be hard-pressed to find any of it from the hand of a professional historian. Almost all of the long rifle knowledge in print or online comes from amateur writers, gun guys usually talking about their favorite regional area of study or their own personal collection. Nothing wrong with that, as a lot of good information comes from such sources. The current danger is the sole reliance on the use of the internet, without a foundation of historical knowledge, but I digress. Ironically, the easy “mucking” of long rifles is the same basic reason it's just as easy to write about them – who will know? Pity the poor newbie collector who doesn’t know who to believe. And since there is no central source of knowledge to dispute an amateur opinion, one has to believe it, therefore more misinformation is perpetuated.
Joe Kindig, Jr. wasn’t a professional writer, and his book isn’t about the American rifle, it is about his collection, with no mention of guns in other collections. Henry Kauffman was the major researcher of the Kindig book – the files in the Lancaster Historic Society prove that out and he claimed (to me) to have written most of the text. In his book, Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle, he doesn’t talk about his collection, he talks about the history of the gun. Ever wonder why Kauffman’s book came out the same year as Kindig’s?
For fun, go back to that period in the 1960s. Imagine a society of some authority existed to critique Kindig's book and in the process promote the book, nationally in scholarly outlets, those beyond the gun community. This effort would soon be followed by a similar review and promotion of Kauffman’s book and further national recognition of the contribution of the long rifle to America’s culture. Now imagine that this theoretical national society, unbeholden to anyone, was free to criticize any book/article as being historically inaccurate, self-serving, or lacking in some other deficiency. Beyond a simple mention of a new book, have you ever read such a balanced review in the KRA, Bulletin, or the ASAC Bulletin? To its credit, Man at Arms Magazine did some “friendly” reviews, but I think they lost their book critic, maybe Joe can address that.
Not long ago, members of this Forum expressed strong opinions criticizing a recent rifle exhibit’s catalog/book. Much of the criticism was merited, but wouldn’t it have been helpful to hear honest opinions from a cadre of qualified historians who have studied the period's history and arms?
Possibly, I’m putting too much emphasis on the value of such a society and its unique ability to nationally promote long rifle history, but my instincts say the question of acceptance of the long rifle would be a whole lot easier had we had an unbiased platform, upping the standards of study and further defending the perception of the long rifle as more than just another gun, as Winterthur calls it.
Patrick Hornberger
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Just a related anecdote...a J. Dickert rifle with a starting bid of $5,000 didn't sell at Heritage Auctions the other day. That rifle was supposedly in RCA Volume 1. I didn't follow the auction so I cannot say, but I presume the bidding did not get into the stated estimate of $8,000-$12,000.
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Further to the above...
Yes, our book reviews were mostly written by the late Herb Houze. Herb wasn't a "longrifle guy" but he was both widely read and was an enthusiastic proponent of the value of primary documentation, to the point where he may have offended some authors. That said, my official title is "technical editor". As such I read all the articles looking for technical flaws (like mistaking etching for engraving or saying thus-and-such was made of cast iron when it was malleable iron...etc.).
Eastwind makes a very good point when he comments on the amateur qualifications of most gun authors. Again, there is nothing wrong with that (I'm one myself) but there are pitfalls. The worst are accepting "gun show lore" and expressing personal opinions as facts. A new collector (and some experienced collectors) have no way of recognizing this.* The only thing that is unquestionable is primary documentation and, by necessity, this is often lacking with early American guns of any type. I make every effort to apply academic standards...which means articles must have footnotes and those must reflect either primary sources or, if the sources are secondary, are identified as such.
*In all fairness, I should add that academics also do this...very often citing long outdated research or authors that were guessing. They may even do it more since often they are not personally involved beyond a limited point. All of this skates along the edge of subjects I'd rather not discuss on an open forum but suffice it to say that the informed collector must be both critical and skeptical...and, if you need an auctioneer's description, you probably aren't qualified to be buying at auction.
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Great discussion.
I handle most of the distribution and publicity for the Kentucky Rifle Foundation books and photo collections so I thought I'd add a few observations based on my admittedly limited experience.
The KRF was founded as a not-for-profit organization to promote research and increased awareness of role the American Longrifle played in our country's early history. We sponsor/publish books such as the two volumes by Bob Lienemann (in collaboration with Scott and others) on Moravian gunbuilding. These are good examples of in-depth historical research paired with detailed commentary on the guns shown and with discussion of why certain conclusions were reached, even if it revises earlier received "wisdom." We have also contributed seed money to a number of other books. (Muzzleloader magazine was mentioned as one of the better sources of information in the topics it covers. I think that is a reflection of the caliber of authors Jason solicits and his emphasis on citations so that readers can judge for themselves how credible the underlying research was.) Our photo collections are an attempt to address the oft-cited complaint of non-KRA and non-east coast collectors and builders that they have few opportunities to study originals.
The KRF also puts on longrifle displays in various museums and historical societies and we are always looking for new venues. We co-sponsor a youth gun building scholarship with Muzzleloader to give young folks who are interested a chance to learn from contemporary master builders. Finally we are a co-sponsor of the Gunmakers Fair at Kempton along with a display of original rifles, which allows interested non-KRA members to see originals up close and personal, often for the first time.
I have to admit that my experiences in trying to get our books into museum gift shops, was very similar to Patrick's. Most bookstore managers, even at museums who are focused on early American history and material culture, are reluctant to buy books that they think would only appeal to a limited audience. My best luck has been to contact the curators or senior management who seem to be more attuned to the overall mission of the museum. However, I do have to say most of the museum research libraries do have our books, and many our photo collections.
I also know that the KRA is trying to shed it's closed reputation, so I would encourage and any collectors who are genuinely interested in the longrifle to contact the KRA about joining.
Just a few thoughts.
Bernie
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As a relatively new collector of longriles, I buy them because I enjoy them not as an investment. I purchase the ones I can afford and have a small collection at this point. I set up at or attend several if the small shows and attend the KRA convention.
Most of the shows that I attend are open to the public like the Eastern PA Longrifle show, Knoxville show, and Alabama show. Even a lot of the closed or private shows only require a pre registration, you just have to contact the promoters and you can attend. The quality of the rifles at these shows is outstanding. People are really missing out on a great opportunity to see these original rifles if they don't attend one of these smaller shows. Most of the people that set up are willing to share information and will often let you handle their rifles. Unfortunately, these shows often have a very low attendance from the public. Why don't many people attend them? I can't answer that, but it's not because they are closed or restrict entry.
I was accepted into the KRA three years ago. My experience so far has been great. I have found the most of the members there to be helpful, friendly, and have always felt welcome there.
I believe the lack of interest is due to a change in culture where history is not appreciated near as much as it used to be, not because the community is closed or exclusive. Just my perspective as someone relatively new to collecting.
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Does anybody have attendance information about longrifle exhibitions at museums--the Berks County longrifle exhibit (2009-10) in Reading, the Lancaster longrifle exhibit at Landis Valley (2012), the Kindig exhibit in Reading (2014), or the more recent one at Rock Ford (2023)--compared to other shows that these institutions have offered? Such exhibits are a lot of work for everybody involved, but they are the sort of things that put Pennsylvania longrifles on a par with other objects from early America that the general public seem to value more (and recognize as art forms).
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Some of the thoughts presented here are new to me. I’m considering the impact of promotion of the lack of it. I think that the colonial and pioneer days which were a constant theme in movies and TV until the 1980s is long gone from the general interest of the people. The Last of the Mohicans and The Revenant were the last of a genre that reached many years ago. It’s been Star Wars and futuristic and apocalyptic stuff that interests the majority of the public now.
With the way guns are used nowadays (when I grew up they were for hunting) they are not going to be glorified going forward except by young men killing animated characters on play stations or X boxes or whatever they use. One has to expect that a culture will change over 70 years or whatever span each of us has seen.
I have friends who are avid model railroaders; one a very successful creator of model railroad cars and locomotives. It’s aged out. Trains have no romance for anyone under 60 years old. Zero ways of marketing trains. Cars are a different story, but post-date the longrifle.
How many people go to history museums? In St. Louis the Art Museum out-paces the History Museum by a lot, but the Zoo is the big man on campus.
I just can’t see the tide changing anytime soon. Obviously there will always be a small number of folks deeply connected to history through family history or being in a place where it happened. Some of them will have wealth and seek very important pieces for their collections.
In a recent Morphy auction I saw some 1960’s AR guns going for many tens of thousands of dollars. Someone mentioned that above.
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Rich, good, concise way to say what I was trying to say. History isn't popular, so historic things aren't. Since the 20th century, people mostly remember 1 to 2 generations back. That's why the 50s were emulated in the 1980s. The 60s were revered in the 1990s, and so on. Colonial times? A blip on the radar for most.
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How many people go to history museums? In St. Louis the Art Museum out-paces the History Museum by a lot, but the Zoo is the big man on campus.
History isn't popular, so historic things aren't.
I think we're painting with too broad a brush here. There's tons of evidence that "our" period--especially the American Revolution--is still very popular, if presented in interesting ways. The new "Museum of the American Revolution" in Philadelphia had more than a million visitors in its first five years. For years after the "National Museum of African American History" in Washington opened in 2016, you had to get tickets months in advance to be able to get into it. The continued popularity of "Hamilton," now performed with traveling companies in many different cities at once, is obvious. I'm surprised at the continued popularity of colonial Williamsburg, which seems, still, a rite of passage for many, many American families (when I go, the place is filled with young couples with young children).
Whether collectors still collect objects from colonial America ... furniture, silverware, hardware, ceramics, guns ... that's a different matter.
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By "popular" I'm using the defintions "liked, enjoyed, or supported by many people" or "what is accepted by or prevalent among people in general."
I'm talking per capita, and relative to it's "popularity" 30 or 50 years ago. I think most of us have noticed that most of the people under 50 in America never read history, don't know it, wouldn't be able to tell you if the fur trappers came before or after the Cowboys. That is different than my parent's generation.
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How does one become involved with KRA? It appears that you need referrals and recommendations. In New Mexico, I don’t even know of another longrifle owner. I participate in a muzzleloader group, but they all shoot Lymans. Apparently they really don’t want anyone new.
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By "popular" I'm using the defintions "liked, enjoyed, or supported by many people" or "what is accepted by or prevalent among people in general."
I'm talking per capita, and relative to it's "popularity" 30 or 50 years ago. I think most of us have noticed that most of the people under 50 in America never read history, don't know it, wouldn't be able to tell you if the fur trappers came before or after the Cowboys. That is different than my parent's generation.
Yes, I'm using the same definition--which is why I pointed to "Hamilton" and the two new history museums that have been enormously popular.
Most people under 50 in America don't read much, period--history or whatever. So what you say is surely true.
But one of the reasons why many history museums have lost attendance is that they tell history badly. Back in the day, that may have mattered less because people went out of obligation. People don't do things out of obligation any more. So these museums need to do things differently. Turning a museum into frivolous entertainment isn't a solution. But telling stories in different ways, and telling new stories, is possible without that.
There's been a lot of writing in the popular press over the last twenty years about just this topic. This 2016 article is really good, I think: https://newengland.com/travel/new-england/new-englands-small-museums/
The Sun Inn, here in Bethlehem, has a small museum, which is pretty inert. It gets some traffic only because people visit the restaurant or during Muskifest. For the last year my research has focused on enslavement in eighteenth-century Bethlehem and, it turns out, quite a few enslaved men and women worked at the Sun Inn. Make our small museum at the Sun Inn into a serious "Slavery in Bethlehem" museum and I'd wager it would be a destination for many tourists.
All of which is to say that well-done long rifle exhibits would bring the public in (as, I think, the recent ones I mentioned in a previous post did, though I don't have any attendance figures for them).
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How does one become involved with KRA? It appears that you need referrals and recommendations. In New Mexico, I don’t even know of another longrifle owner. I participate in a muzzleloader group, but they all shoot Lymans. Apparently they really don’t want anyone new.
Interesting. I have been making these guns for 43 years and have never been invited to a kra function. I heard once that you need a sponsor to become a member. I don't even know a kra member so I figured they are just another good ol boys club and went on with life. Not exactly public friendly.
I seriously doubt if the kra's existence makes any difference in the dwindling interest in KY rifles. As has been pointed out, the public has moved on from that period of history.
I don't believe they even teach pre WWII history in high school anymore.
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I’ve been a collector of Native American Material Culture for around 30 years, and new to Pennsylvania Long Rifles. NA items that I purchased 20-30 years ago, I would now be fortunate to get half. And these are not “middle market” items. The very best seems to hold up but not really keep up with inflation. But as another poster stated, these are not investments. Yes, the cost can certainly be in a cruise or European vacation range, but these are objects I have enjoyed for many years. The recession of 2008-10 really knocked the bottom out of the arts market here in the Santa Fe area, and has never really recovered. I really consider PA long rifles in the art category, whereas the Colts, Winchesters, 1911’s, etc are really collectables, rather than hand crafted, one of a kind art. Hence my interest.
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... In New Mexico, I don’t even know of another longrifle owner.
Pretty much the same for me in upstate New York. I collected most of my longrifles at least 25 years ago.
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The KRA has given me the opportunity to see amazing pieces of American history that otherwise could only be seen a piece or two at a time in museums behind glass and definitely no opportunity to pick up and examine the amazing details. Dave Hanson’s collection comes to mind. The best of the best of the best and the man is kind enough to allow you to handle them. To me it’s like holding a Rembrandt. Quite thrilling really. So to a degree I can appreciate why they don’t want to be open to the public, but we do need to work harder at inclusion. Sometimes I take rifles to shows open to the public and a guy will ask to handle your rifle and the proceed to put it down hard on the buttplate against the floor or roll the rifle over and stress the ramrod pipe sideways with the ramrod. They just don’t know any better.
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This summer was my first show as a KRA member, and I absolutely appreciated that it was closed to the public. There was a ton of pieces on open display that you wouldn't dare leave out if anyone and everyone was there. They also had top notch security for the gun room. That led to lots of incredible pieces being available for examination, and it also meant that it was really easy to walk around and talk with everyone about their pieces. The organization does other events that are more open and also works on some neat public displays at various museums, the NRA Annual Meeting, etc. to promote the organization and these historic arms. Joining is a somewhat involved process but not overly difficult. I was able to join thanks to two members here helping me as endorser and sponsor and then had a great time at the show with the one that was able to make it. I don't recall meeting anyone at the show that wasn't excited to share what they knew and what they had. I'm definitely planning on going back again this year.
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For those who have been involved in collecting for a while, how do current prices compare to those from say 20 years ago? Does this vary with desirability? Have high-end longrifles held their value better? Where do you see prices heading in the future?
Jim
In the late 70’s, Sam Pennington, the founder of the Maine Antiques Digest wrote “I fear people will know the price of everything, but the value of nothing”. This has stuck with me the last 45 years. It’s tempting to get caught up in acquiring an item because it’s a good price, but of questionable value. Items of importance usually hold up over time. Take this as you may.
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I always thought prices were a bit disparate between rifles with patchboxes and early Pennsylvania long guns without patchboxes. Like everyone here I really like early rifles with patchboxes. But there is just as much history and artistry per pound with the Pennsylvania fowling and smooth rifle guns. There are some real unique gems out there, some signed, carved etc., same history - just no patchbox. Does anyone have thoughts on how the compartive prices on smooth guns have been heading in recent years?
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Of the more expensive American flintlocks I've cataloged, the only one that comes to mind that was a smoothbore without a patchbox was been a Medad Hills gun that went for $51,000. Some of the "smooth rifles" with patchboxes have done well, but the expensive ones tend to be the fancier rifles with carving and patchboxes.