AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: smylee grouch on November 24, 2023, 11:04:39 PM
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I read here so many reports of shooters getting a crust ring near the breech, especially when using Swiss powder. I have been using Swiss in 1&1/2, 2, and 3f for years and haven't run into this problem. When shooting in chunk gun, X-stix and light bench I used Teflon coated patching so had to wipe between shots so that would have hindered any crust build up. But when hunting I use Bear oil for a lube and seldom will shoot enuf shots to form any crust. When working up loads for my 62 cal. I shot 40 shots in one session with no crust , wiping between 10 shot groups after changing targets. So I'm wondering if lube type, ball patch combo, weather as in humidity or some other factor is causing this problem?
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I always get an accumulation of fouling in the breech area. I thought it was normal. The powder brand does not matter. IF I use soaking wet patches and do not wipe the hard fouling builds up enough to feel with the cleaning patch in five shots. I wonder about he never wipe crowd. Wouldn't the fouling acuminate in breech section where the ball never seats below? The accumulation would take up space and the ball would eventually seat higher than the mark on the rod? I have a 30 cal under hammer that can only be shot so many times before breech fouling interferes with ignition.
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That's exactly what happens and when using flint or percussion, NEVER an ignition problem, even with OVER 100 shots fired, with no cleaning, wiping or swabbing occurring.
As shooting progresses, the mark on the rod climbs up out of the barrel when the ball is seated with the same 'thump' as normal. The ballistics remain exactly the same, as well.
Stands to reason that if you don't wipe the breech, fouling MUST build up there. How could it not? The area where the ball sits and forward gets WIPED every shot while being
loaded - how could it not get wiped? it gets wiped right to the bottom of the grooves and corners. When there is compression of the patch in each groove, each groove gets wiped.
I clean my guns AFTER I get home and never at the range, unless it is a multiple day shoot, then after the shooting, then a beer or two are over. THAT's when to clean. When
shooting, I am there to shoot, not to clean.
The cleaning bucket gets grey-ish after cleaning. It is darker grey after cleaning the .69, just due to the volume of the bore I assume, even though I shoot the same amount of powder in my
Beck .50 & the .50 has a much longer barrel. The difference is not great, though. There is a huge difference between the larger bores, and the .36 that shoots only 35gr. of powder. It's also
the easiest shooting, especially with bore sized balls. The smaller the ball, the less lead there is to move. The water bucket after cleaning the .36, is drinkable. It will taste somewhat sulfur(y).
The solids will sink to the bottom.
I grew up drinking sulfur water out at the farm where I hunted from about 10yrs., old on. Some people called it mineral water. It was well water, likely from a aquifer running over sulfur deposits.
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Been using Swiss almost exclusively for the last year since GOEX was out of production. Never noticed any difference, in fact since I started using 50/50 Dawn and water earlier this year for lube, I’d say it’s even less, along with easier cleanup.
Bob
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I use mutton tallow and seems to help prevent the hard ring . I dip the patching in double boiler and squeeze out extra wrapping strips or cut patches in old pill bottles my loads are 70-80grns swiss 3f or 2f
(https://i.ibb.co/F8NvBgF/DSC03040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ygGT8Wr)
the only down side is in very cold weather I need to keep patching in an inner pocket
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i have been pushing dawn dish soap water lube for well over a year. i get mostly snubbed and ridiculed, LOL, but i can shoot indefinitely and never "swab" a bore. a friend and form member i shoot with "mulebrain" showed me this secret 2 years ago, and ol time shooter showed him. i use nothing else except when hunting. if you try it, you will never get a crud ring again no matter the powder. i use about 60-40 mix soak the patch and load. oh, and as far as accuracy, tack driving,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Some barrels seem to suffer from this. Others not so much. I have a barrel I may cup the breech on to see if this solves the issue. I have one from the same maker that has this issue. Maybe I should cup it to see if this works. Just an experiment. It moves the vent toward the middle of the charge rather than at the rear.
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i have been pushing dawn dish soap water lube for well over a year. i get mostly snubbed and ridiculed, LOL, but i can shoot indefinitely and never "swab" a bore. a friend and form member i shoot with "mulebrain" showed me this secret 2 years ago, and ol time shooter showed him. i use nothing else except when hunting. if you try it, you will never get a crud ring again no matter the powder. i use about 60-40 mix soak the patch and load. oh, and as far as accuracy, tack driving,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Any water based lube should accomplish this. I just don’t care for water/spit patch lube and I have a valid reason. The problem with soaps/detergents and they can be at some level corrosive. I suspect that Windex 1 part to 3 parts water will do the same thing. I used to use this (the formula with vinegar) to clean BPCRs when I was shooting a lot of such things. And I used to shoot a lot with spit patches in MLs when I was a kid but then one ends uo with a ring of wet fouling where the ball sets.
I suspect the Dawn will make a lower friction lube than straight water. Some barrels like a “slick” lube and some may like a high friction lube. Sperm Whale Oil is higher friction than Neatfoot Oil but its no longer available. Some barrels will shoot this better than slick lubes. In my “chunk gun” I use patch material soaked in WS cutting oil then allowed to dry (let the water evaporate) 1:5 mix oil:water IIRC. Have not shot this rifle in some time. AND this requires wiping every shot.
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Over the years I have used a WIDE variety of lubes and I've never required wiping or swabbing. I have not used a dry lube as this would defeat my purpose of shooting
without having to wipe or swab. I do not shoot the same competition's Dan shoots, thus, no need for wiping between shots.
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I suspect it is your patch (Teflon) or lube. Black powder doesn't like synthetic lubes or fabrics. It will react with it and leave a hard crust.
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I shot a lot of Teflon patches and never had a crust ring because you have to wipe between shots when using it. ;)
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when I used a lube call gato - bees wax- paraffin wax-and tallow, I would get a hard ring, I suspect the paraffin was the cause
I switched to all tallow and have much less problem when I do wipe I use windex fallowed by alcohol 91% and dry patch
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Straight water, or alcohol and water(WWWF) makes a good lube for many of us for target shooting. The waxes are used to stiffen a lube. They are not lube in and of themselves - only
a commodity to make an oil or grease stiffer/thicker as needed in a groove bullet lube.
I've never heard of using both in a patch lube, let alone a bullet lube. I tried using Vaseline and Paraffin as a lube but it was GROSSLY inferior in my barrel, to Vaseline and beeswax. mix, which worked a treat as a slug lube in my .45 with grooved lubricated bullets & also in the BP suppository rifles and cast bullets in modern rifles too with the new fandangeled powders.
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I had to switch to schutzen from goex thats when I got the ring, I had to seat my ball by ramming the ramrod against a 4x4 in my shop.
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It's not the GOEX, John.
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No I think it was because I changed powder. Never had trouble with goex.
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I got the ring with schutzen also. But never got it with goex.
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I've been using Schutzen 2F for a year now, in both my .69 and .50.
No crud or fouling ring - ever. This "ring" is an experience I have never had, although before about mid 1973 I did have to learn how "to load all day without having to wipe the bore".
The light came on about that time and was a combination of things, crown condition and patch material. I already had the .005" under bore size ball down pat. That ball size was
drilled into me by my old late friend and mentor, Lester H. Hawkes of Walcott Road, B.C., formerly from Kalispel, Montana.
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Fouling problems are generally caused by lube issues. Type and/or amount. The more lube the better.
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Can't see any pictures on the site, nor my own, but these barrels produce ZERO fouling. Loading is easy, start of the day to the last one loaded.
You can see the groove depth and width of both lands and grooves.
(https://i.ibb.co/YpNWzqW/IMG-2811.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NZF38H3)
(https://i.ibb.co/mzf5SGX/32.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5cbh26n)
(https://i.ibb.co/HD6CNj4/40-Goodoien.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mCk0v3T)
(https://i.ibb.co/M6n826n/100-6518-zpsoyoluoi4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WtnDxtn)
(https://i.ibb.co/VCv1kCd/45-Bauska1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/09f7z9k)
(https://i.ibb.co/YhMDK2k/Crowns45and58001-zps2a7b2e16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9WLwfnT)
(https://i.ibb.co/p1s6679/Muzzle-Crown-14-bore-closeup.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGrVV7W)
(https://i.ibb.co/LZ7BQ8T/P4242099.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5RHCY6Q)
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Never had issues with swiss powders, but the old goex was a different story. My .58 would get a crust ring around eight inches down from the muzzle, Could see it with a bore light, both before and after, clean, other than the usual fouling from a few shots, thought that was kinda odd...I'm hearing the new goex burns a lot cleaner
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I've been using Schutzen 2F for a year now, in both my .69 and .50.
No crud or fouling ring - ever. This "ring" is an experience I have never had, although before about mid 1973 I did have to learn how "to load all day without having to wipe the bore".
The light came on about that time and was a combination of things, crown condition and patch material. I already had the .005" under bore size ball down pat. That ball size was
drilled into me by my old late friend and mentor, Lester H. Hawkes of Walcott Road, B.C., formerly from Kalispel, Montana.
You do realize the ring o crust is actually where the ball seats on the powder with every loading doncha? Had no problems with getting the thin patched ball to that point. Found it while cleaning after shooting was done. I keep the Schutzen in my unmentionables now. Works fine in those.
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I have never felt a ring of crust or anything else while cleaning.
The breech goes into the bucket and I run a wet patch down to the breech plug. No crust. The fouling that builds up in the breech does not slow
the patch getting to the plug on the first push.
Schutzen is the only 2F I have right now, about 10 pounds of it. When that's gone, I will try whatever else is available.
I think I also have about 10 pounds, of mixed Old Enysford and Schutzen 3F. Got a bunch of 1F GOEX still, which shoots
well in the singe shot BP CtG rifle. I also have a couple pounds of 1 1/2F Swiss.
I found in the .69, I had to use more of it to get the same POI as GOEX. It burns nicely for me, gives decent accuracy and as clean shooting as GOEX
ever was. I see no real difference, just in the amount I have to use. In the .50 flinter, seems to me I had to use 90gr. of it, rather than my old load of 85gr. GOEX.
In all of my rifles, I am currently using the thin .021" denim patch. I used to use a .030" patch in the .69, as it wanted that for 100yard and further shooting. Since
I'm not shooting that far, I can get away with lighter charges and the thin patch. I'm using a .495" ball in the .50, which has square .010" deep rifling. The .69, has
.012" rifling and gets by with the same patch and a .682" ball, .008" smaller than the bore. In tests I can actually go right to 140gr. 2F and the .021" patches are
reusable if given some more lube. For some of the postal matches, I've been using old patches I've picked up. Denim is almost $40.00 per meter here. A square meter
is 39" each side.
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Daryl, as much as I would have loved using a thick denim patch, the .535 ball wouldn’t hammer in even with a .015 patch. In fact we broke the wooden ball of the short started trying to get it to start in 2 different guns. Yes, I probably crowned and polished the muzzle transition as you recommended. We finally just loaded the .530 ball and wet .010 patches and had great groups, easy loading for the rest of the day.
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I can only think the lead must have been alloyed and not at least plumber pure lead, which is 98.6% pure.
Or:
Perhaps the bore is not .54".
I've loaded bore sized or even larger balls in .36 (.360"), .40 (.398" bore), .50 (.08" oversize ball) and my .,69(.690"), all with at least .021" denim and the .32 and .40 with .0235" mattress ticking.
I do not understand how or why you could not load .005" undersized and a .021" patch, let alone a .015" patch. I just don't get it. Sorry - does not compute.
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I can only think the lead must have been alloyed and not at least plumber pure lead, which is 98.6% pure.
Or:
Perhaps the bore is not .54".
I've loaded bore sized or even larger balls in .36 (.360"), .40 (.398" bore), .50 (.08" oversize ball) and my .,69(.690"), all with at least .021" denim and the .32 and .40 with .0235" mattress ticking.
I do not understand how or why you could not load .005" undersized and a .021" patch, let alone a .015" patch. I just don't get it. Sorry - does not compute.
The plumbium was bought certified pure and before casting tested 5-6 and the bore gauged at exactly .540”. I’m a big stickler for keeping my lead types separate, if there’s any unknown lead it goes in my very well marked mystery metal pot and I never melt more than one kind at a time.
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Brinel 5 is pure (I understand), 6 some alloy, not much at all, virtually pure.
USA Crimp-on Wheel weights were 9 to 11 and Canadian were 12/13 as I understand these. Battery lead, sold as pure
by some salvage outfits (no visible steel or copper with it, so "pure lead") even harder.
It's an even greater puzzle then, Clark.
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Some of my results. First target at 100 yards from rest. I used an adjustable powder measure, so those charges were some heavier.
(https://i.ibb.co/4dk1FJ9/58-Swiss1-5-120.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8ckYmXT)
Second targets at 50 yards with flintlock shown below.
(https://i.ibb.co/c3LV7bC/58-Cal-120-Goex-20-Swiss.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NCSbH1m)
Third is a .54 Hawken I gave my nephew Rick.
(https://i.ibb.co/3RRKmQ6/Rick4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tLLRpFj)
Here I had a cleaning patch on the seater jag, so wiped the bore down as I seated the balls (.562 and .570). Taylor bought this rifle as agent for his friend Ross "Hatchet Jack" ten yeas ago. Ross just wrote me that he has now fired 15,000 shots through this rifle and it is still as accurate s when I shot it a couple of thousand shots.
(https://i.ibb.co/pK87yyN/Hawken-July10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mywj88d)
(https://i.ibb.co/61QbLff/58-Cal-120-Swiss-120-Goex.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cCqtV77)
pic upload (https://imgbb.com/)
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While shooting yesterday paid attention to the loading difficulty when switching between the new Goex FFg and some Swiss FFG. There was definitely harder loading and a ring with Swiss. It was undeniable. Two different caplocks were used. I also tried different lubes. 5-1 ratio Ballistol wet patches and Mink Oil. Tried different patch thicknesses also. Did not notice as pronounced of a ring with Goex. It was there but very slight.n I was using fairly large charges. Most all were 100 grains. Just my observation. I had not shot Swiss in a while and didnt remember a crust ring like that. But my memory…well you know.
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all targets shot with no wipe using TALLOW (mutton) as lube
(https://i.ibb.co/cypNJW2/DSC03033-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7STGv3r) getz barrel 50yrds
(https://i.ibb.co/G2zz2gb/DSC03160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qsTTsbP) 2high then filled rear sight next 3 greenmtn barrel 100yrds bench
(https://i.ibb.co/QnnKjc3/DSC03384.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6bbWJZ7) all others Hoyt barrels 50+54 (gain twist)
(https://i.ibb.co/C99TnTv/DSC03411.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fNNPCPt)
(https://i.ibb.co/ftdkxQP/DSC03618.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Np29y7H) above 2 targets sight in then moved sights to center shot
(https://i.ibb.co/4P9nQtc/DSC03041.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MMWxXSb)
the tallow seems to keep fouling soft
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Back to the original question, I have found Swiss to produce less fouling, but it dries harder. Even with wet lubing. Just my experience.
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Still no personal experience with Swiss powders in a muzzleloader, but I have to comment on Herb's extreme spreads. They seem VERY extreme to me.
I haven't "done" extreme spread spread tests for a while, but in all calibres I did it, using GOEX powder, even back to the late 1970's and up to the 2010,
my spreads in all calibres from .32 to .69 were single digits. Perhaps this is due to a lack of blow-by, or due to using tight enough combinations that make
the powder burn better/more completely?
I did notice Herb mentions using a .013" patch. My patches measure from .021/.0235" in the smaller calibres to .034" in the .69. This is with balls that are .008"
under bore size, on up to bore size in the .32, .36 and .69 and in the .40, .002" larger than bore size. I used a 10 ounce denim in the .69, with the .690" balls.
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Be glad that black powder is still around to be bought at whatever price.I remember when DuPont quit making it and we were VERY glad to see a restart by GOEX.I bought my first pound of black powder from a pawn shop in Charleston WVa for $1.50 in 1951.I was 15.
The Swiss seems to have more "punch" than GOEX and I tried both at 500 meters in a long range rifle with a 530 grain lubricated bullet and 80 grains of both brands and supposedly the same granulation 3fg.The Swiss was potent and I had to lower the tang sight by .075 or 3 full turns on the 40 threads per inch adjustment screw.That test shows that the Swiss have a more potent formula for black powder.It also seems to leave a crust and I wonder if it burns at a higher heat range than GOEX? That is speculation but has anyone looked at it that has a way to measure the maximum heat of burning powder? In Aoril of 1953 I met E.M.Farris and Bill Large on the same day and after seeing targets shot with Bill's barrels I was convinced that the "Bull's Eye" instead of its rear end was really possible.The barrels he "made" then were Buehmiller? that he modified the rifling and could plane it to octagon.Mr.Farris sold two brands of black powder,DuPont and Kings.
The King's was made in King's Mills,Ohio.King;s was dead but still selling off inventory and that Fall I went to Friendship with Mr.Farris and we
stopped there an loaded up his 1951 Pontiac with 6 and 1/4 and 25 pound steel drums of black powder and he sold most of it at the Fall Shoot.I am possibly one of the last people that knew some of the founders of the NMLRA in 1933 and will soon be 88 years old on 27 March
and THIS forum IMHO is the best venue to post on concerning black powder and the guns that require it and nothing else.I hope nobody went to sleep trying to read this.Big cold and snow here now and no reason to go outside.
Bob Roller
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John Buhmiller, gun and barrel maker of Kalispel Montana. I spoke with John in the spring of 1975, while visiting Les Bauska in his shop, same city. John had fallen and was injured so
was not entertaining guests. Had a nice conversation with him, though, bringing up my 'new' friend Lester H. Hawkes who used to work for John and was best friends with Bauska.
That was a long time ago.
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Funny this. I have been shooting since the mid 60's and have never experienced this barrel ring problem. Mostly used GOEX. Saliva has always been an acceptable patch lube for me, except in freezing weather.
When I got started on the big bore thing, I discovered that with over 150 grain charges, the patches started to show signs of burning. So, I decided it might be a good thing to use a shotgun size cushion wad between the patched ball and the powder charge. When I did that, I used factory Wonder Lube patch. Results were a patch that could be picked up and shot again. Oh, by the way, I could shoot 20+ shots out of my 12 bore rifle with 200+ grain powder charges and never wipe the bore. Last shot loaded as easily as the first one.
I guess the bottom line here is YMMV. Just get the load worked out and enjoy the day.
John (Bigsmoke)
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I love Swiss, it’s my favorite powder. But I have and use Goex and Schuetzen too. Agree that Swiss is more potent and burns cleaner. But I have had the hard ring problem, specifically in my .45 SMRs. Both will hard ring after 13-15 shots. Doesn’t seem to be a problem in my larger calibers.
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A patch over the powder, same as used around the ball, seems to cure this. In limited testing.
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I was shooting a 40 today, GM barrels, and had no issues with 62 gr of FFF Swiss. Will be doing more shooting later in the week maybe.
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last friday (50 temp) I sighted in my hoyt .50 gain twist 38 inch barrel and fired 50+ shots with swiss 2 and 3 f 75-80 grns I never needed to wipe and got great groups. I used mutton tallow and 10 oz denim patch .490 ball the 80 grouped best just over 11/4 inches at 100 bench rest open sights
(https://i.ibb.co/rdhJjs2/tomsbuild3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tL65GXp)
(https://i.ibb.co/z70hc0j/thumbnail-1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
I also use 4f swiss in the pan
(https://i.ibb.co/1RNvbx3/DSC03775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DwFVLnN)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jy5jNQr/DSC03779.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4YPRcd4)
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(https://i.ibb.co/vVmgmD1/DSC03774.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RYPZP72)
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I believe Bill Knight covered the fouling problem here at one time. As I recall it is the higher burring temperature of Swiss that melts some of the fouling and causes the glaze. This I have proven to myself, Goex no problem Swiss yes. At one hundred yards Swiss has a very slight edge over Goex not worth the gain or cost for me.
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What little experience I've had with Swiss was with 3F in the .32. It's been a while but I recall nothing out of the ordinary when using it. With other powders such as Goex I've noticed the buildup of of a crust ring with no consistency as to barrel, load or number of shots. It doesn't happen every time or if it does always happen I don't notice it perhaps due to it being soft. I don't wipe during shooting and clean the gun when I get home. I do usually run a wet then a dry patch down the bore prior to packing up for the day and often find at least some resistance from a fouling ring. But it comes right out with the second (dry) patch. I don't consider that as "cleaning" and it only takes a minute or so since it's a habit of mine.
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This "crud rung" must have something to do with humidity or atmospheric conditions. Now I have never used Swiss powder but have never experienced a crud ring developing in any of my guns regardless of caliber, number of shots fired without wiping or amount of powder used. I might be missing something here but anyone responding to his live out here in the Pacific NW?
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I think "crud" rings happen with "weak" combinations - thin patch or overly small balls.
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This "crud rung" must have something to do with humidity or atmospheric conditions. Now I have never used Swiss powder but have never experienced a crud ring developing in any of my guns regardless of caliber, number of shots fired without wiping or amount of powder used. I might be missing something here but anyone responding to his live out here in the Pacific NW?
There are a host of variables. I have a 54 that I need to play around with more and try sone things. You would think that 62 gr in a 40 would cause issues. But no. But 66 of FFF swiss in 54 does. I gotta do more shooting and thinking on this. I have a 50 and 54 that have no issues.
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Interesting observations.
I've used 75gr. 3F in my .45 as well as 85gr. 2F in the same barrel, with LHV lube and my normal ball and patch combinations. The velocities for both of those loads were just over
2,200fps. This was done in a test of slippery lubes to get the same poi and accuracy as with water based lubes that produced a mere 1,800fps with 65gr. 3F.
No crud ring with those loads using GOEX.
No crud ring in my .69 with any of the loads tested using GOEX right up to 200gr. 2F. The lube used with THAT load and normal 165gr. hunting load, was Track's MinkOil.